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The All Anti-Clutch Playoff Team

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Old
02-12-2012, 11:31 PM
  #26
Doomsday Device
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Padan View Post
Came here to post him. He was just too soft for the playoffs, and was a minus player in eight of his thirteen playoffs (was a plus player only once).
This thread seems to be about players who play below their regular season level in the playoffs and Housley doesn't fit that. He was the same player in the playoffs he was in the regular season. He was a minus player in the regular season almost every season he was in the playoffs. And his offence was still quite good. His playoff seasons in his prime were from 1983-1995. Here's the top defenceman in PPG with minimum 300 games in the regular season and 40 games in the playoffs during that time frame.

Regular Season
1. Paul Coffey - 1.31
2. Ray Bourque - 1.12
3. Al MacInnis - 1.02
4. Brian Leetch - 1.00
5. Phil Housley - 0.97
6. Paul Reinhart - 0.89
7. Gary Suter - 0.89
8. Denis Potvin - 0.87
9. Doug Wilson - 0.86
10. Jeff Brown - 0.82

Playoffs
1. Brian Leetch - 1.29
2. Paul Coffey - 1.16
3. Al MacInnis - 1.06
4. Paul Reinhart - 0.95
5. Ray Bourque - 0.90
6. Phil Housley - 0.86
7. Steve Duchesne - 0.83
8. Doug Wilson - 0.82
9. Larry Murphy - 0.80
10. Brad Maxwell - 0.78

So if you're going to call Housley a choker, you should probably add Bourque and Potvin to that list too.

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Old
02-13-2012, 12:41 AM
  #27
JSmith81x
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Sean Burke: 9-8 in his first playoff run, then 3-15 the rest of his career.

Stephane Fiset: 1-7 career playoff record.

Rick Kehoe: 4 goals and 21 points in 39 games; had 371 career goals.

Derek King: 4 goals and 21 points in 47 games, two-thirds of those points in 1993.

Geoff Sanderson: 9 goals and 19 points in 55 games, half coming in Buffalo's 1999 Finals year.

Brian Savage: 3 goals and 11 points in 39 games.

Paul Ysebaert: 4 goals and 7 points in 30 games (.63 PPG in RS, .23 in PO).

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Old
02-13-2012, 12:50 AM
  #28
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Honestly, other than the OT winner in game 5 of the 2007 WCF....Selanne is probably as anti-clutch as you can get in the playoffs.

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Old
02-13-2012, 01:19 AM
  #29
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Originally Posted by DuckJet View Post
Honestly, other than the OT winner in game 5 of the 2007 WCF....Selanne is probably as anti-clutch as you can get in the playoffs.
Lilja

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Old
02-13-2012, 01:34 AM
  #30
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Brian Savage: 3 goals and 11 points in 39 games.
Hockey's Mr. October

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Old
02-13-2012, 08:24 AM
  #31
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The biggest problem Ratelle had in the playoffs in New York is that the Rangers were soft. He gets traded to a much tougher team (ironically, the same one that used to **** him in the playoffs), and suddenly produces a lot more in the postseason.

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Old
02-13-2012, 09:39 AM
  #32
Little Ball of Hate
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Kinda sad that his legacy will be tainted by willful ignorance.
Explain....

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Old
02-13-2012, 11:22 AM
  #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SomerHimpson View Post
Following up on my all-consistent team thread, I'm doing another all-topic team thread.

This time, it's about the anti-clutch playoff performers- the ones you couldn't really depend on.

For every Claude Lemieux, Mark Messier, or Patrick Roy who would come up big in spring crunchtime, there were players that were the opposite- rolled snake eyes more often than not.

List a team of the center, wings, defenseman, and goalie you wouldn't trust come playoff time.

Center- Alexei Yashin. Save for a few good moments in '98, was pretty much a non-factor each time he made the playoffs. He makes Joe Thornton look like Mario Lemieux. Won only one playoff series ever- even the much-maligned Marcel Dionne at least won more than a single postseason series.

Left Wing- Keith Tkachuk. Here's a guy who not only didn't come up big more often than not, but was on a staggering three different teams that blew 3-1 series leads ('92 Jets, '99 Coyotes, '03 Blues).

Right Wing- Dany Heatley. Save for 2007, he hasn't exactly been a springtime hero.

Defense- Phil Housley and Mike Green. Defenseman who scored a lot of points in the fall and winter. But come springtime- oy.

Goalie- Dan Cloutier. His implosions were epic, considering he had his teams in position to do big things (Could have KO'd Wings in 2002 up 2-0. Blew 3-1 lead against Minnesota in '03 with winnable series against Anaheim in sight).
You did a fairly good job here, although, if I thought about it for a few minutes I am sure I could do better than Dany Heatley, who did have a 22-goal playoff.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MS View Post
The difference in perception between his career and Pierre Turgeon’s is fascinating – same player 20 years apart, one is greatly respected for it and the other mocked.
Turgeon actually produced in the playoffs, too.

Quote:
Originally Posted by VanIslander View Post
Marleau is CLUTCH. You are obviously are not a Sharks fan. He may not be the go-to guy (not his style), but when it matters most, he produces key goals more often than not. Show me one season ticket holder who thinks otherwise!! What you say is just nuts by San Jose fan standards. Spend some time in sports bars in Alameda, Oakland or anywhere in the Bay Area, and see how long your opinion stands. Just crazy...
Absolutely right. How he is called a choker by some people is a mystery to me.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Doomsday Device View Post
This thread seems to be about players who play below their regular season level in the playoffs and Housley doesn't fit that. He was the same player in the playoffs he was in the regular season. He was a minus player in the regular season almost every season he was in the playoffs. And his offence was still quite good. His playoff seasons in his prime were from 1983-1995. Here's the top defenceman in PPG with minimum 300 games in the regular season and 40 games in the playoffs during that time frame.

Regular Season
1. Paul Coffey - 1.31
2. Ray Bourque - 1.12
3. Al MacInnis - 1.02
4. Brian Leetch - 1.00
5. Phil Housley - 0.97
6. Paul Reinhart - 0.89
7. Gary Suter - 0.89
8. Denis Potvin - 0.87
9. Doug Wilson - 0.86
10. Jeff Brown - 0.82

Playoffs
1. Brian Leetch - 1.29
2. Paul Coffey - 1.16
3. Al MacInnis - 1.06
4. Paul Reinhart - 0.95
5. Ray Bourque - 0.90
6. Phil Housley - 0.86
7. Steve Duchesne - 0.83
8. Doug Wilson - 0.82
9. Larry Murphy - 0.80
10. Brad Maxwell - 0.78

So if you're going to call Housley a choker, you should probably add Bourque and Potvin to that list too.
I don't know where you got that number, but I knew immediately it was wrong when I read it. Housley has 56 points in 85 playoff games, which is just .65 per game.

Then, of course, there's that +/- and the fact that his teams almost never went anywhere.

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Old
02-13-2012, 12:49 PM
  #34
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Originally Posted by seventieslord View Post
I don't know where you got that number, but I knew immediately it was wrong when I read it. Housley has 56 points in 85 playoff games, which is just .65 per game.

Then, of course, there's that +/- and the fact that his teams almost never went anywhere.
Take another look at the parameters he specified. He's not wrong.

But the 1995 end date conveniently leaves out the 1998 playoffs, where Housley had both the most team success and the worst individual performance of his career.

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Old
02-13-2012, 01:29 PM
  #35
seventieslord
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Originally Posted by overpass View Post
Take another look at the parameters he specified. He's not wrong.

But the 1995 end date conveniently leaves out the 1998 playoffs, where Housley had both the most team success and the worst individual performance of his career.
oh, whoops.

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Old
02-13-2012, 01:48 PM
  #36
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Originally Posted by overpass View Post
Take another look at the parameters he specified. He's not wrong.

But the 1995 end date conveniently leaves out the 1998 playoffs, where Housley had both the most team success and the worst individual performance of his career.
He was clearly out of his prime by 1998. He was a 6/7 defenceman by then and was healthy scratched several times in the regular season. I don't think his lack of playoff success after he'd lost a step says that much when compared to what he did in the meat of his career. He was the same one-way player in the regular season and playoffs in his prime.

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Old
02-13-2012, 02:11 PM
  #37
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Originally Posted by Little Ball of Hate View Post
Explain....
Luongo is mostly going to be remembered for two enigmatic series against Chicago and one against Boston, but those are the only real flaws in his resume. His playoff numbers those series notwithstanding are in elite territory. He has three Vezina nominations and a Hart nomination, including one season (06/07) where his 2nd place finish was more impressive than most other seasons' Vezina winning efforts. He was brilliant in the World Cup in 2004, especially vs. the Czechs in the semifinals where he stood on his head as we were outshot two-fold. He backstopped Team Canada to an Olympic gold, including robbing Pavol Demitra of a surefire game-tying goal late in the semi finals. He will likely finish in the top ten all-time in both wins and shutouts, and he has to be considered one of the top three goalies of the 2000s (after Brodeur and better than most of Kiprusoff/Nabokov/Turco/Giguere/Khabibulin).

But everyone's probably just going to remember an out of context quote he made about Tim Thomas and a couple of seven goal games with bad timing.

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Old
02-13-2012, 02:30 PM
  #38
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Originally Posted by Little Ball of Hate View Post
Luongo....


He just took his team to a Cup final and up until Games 3 and 4 was probably the favourite to win the Conn Smythe. I know he's had some collapses that he will be remembered for but almost every player has at some point in their career. To put him up there as an all-time anti-clutch playoff performer is just stupid.

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Old
02-13-2012, 07:10 PM
  #39
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Paul Kariya with nashville ?

Did not watch all is other playoff, but a remember him as pretty much absent that year.

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Old
02-13-2012, 07:17 PM
  #40
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Honestly curious: if we wanted to make a list of such players pre-expansion, who would be on it?

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Old
02-14-2012, 05:19 PM
  #41
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Cloutier as a goalie is about as correct as you can get it. The guy had a team had they won the Cup it would have surprised no one. Then Lidstrom scored from center ice. Then Minnesota with a rotten offense scored 16 goals in three games on him. Then he isn't even the for sure #1 goalie in the playoffs in 2004. Just awful.

The Luongo statement is a little off. Right now he is similar to Tony Esposito who also had some great regular seasons but some memorable choke jobs at crunch time. You want more from each goalie, but they aren't #1 on this list, no way. Cloutier should have this nailed down for a while, and I personally put Nabokov ahead of Luongo as well considering he has had amazing talent in front of him (Russia, San Jose) and looked awful when it mattered most. Yet Joe Thornton always got the brunt of the blame.

Defenseman, so far Mike Green looks bad. I'm not sure there are a lot of goalies who stand out on this list so Housley isn't a bad pick either.

Forwards..............

Keith Primeau was correct. 2004? Who cares, the Flyers didn't even get out of the semis. He was downright awful every other time of his career and he again played on some very good teams where he never had to carry the team.

Yashin and Tkachuk fit the bill. The difference is that everyone thought Tkachuk would eventually bust out. I'm not sure anyone ever thought that about Yashin. He just didn't have the heart. I mean, the guy is shut out in 1999 (pointless in a sweep) and THEN demands more money. Amazing.

Woody Dumart. A HHOFer but just terrible offensive stats. I have debated this before and it has been determined Dumart took a more defensive role in the playoffs, but so did Zetterberg and it didn't stop him from scoring. Dumart often gets overlooked because Boston won a couple of Cups with him.

Oh yeah, Ratelle doesn't belong on this list. He redeemed himself as a Bruin. Had some good runs so it kind of offsets what he did as a Ranger. It doesn't make him a playoff legend, but it gets him out of "choker" territory. We would have said the same thing about Selanne pre-2004. Except Selanne redeemed himself after that.

Last but not least - Kariya. Come on, honestly. He had a glimpse of brilliance in 1997. Then that's it. He was outpointed by 40 year old Adam Oates in the 2003 final. Just a sad case.

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Old
03-23-2014, 12:19 PM
  #42
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Honestly curious: if we wanted to make a list of such players pre-expansion, who would be on it?
I'd like to rehash this question.

Sweeney Schriner and Bryan Hextall or am I missing something significant?

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Old
03-23-2014, 12:24 PM
  #43
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I'd like to rehash this question.

Sweeney Schriner and Bryan Hextall or am I missing something significant?
Why Schriner?

Off the top of my head = Nels Stewart, Hooley Smith, Lynn "twinkletoes" Patrick, Andy Bathgate

In goal, Hugh Lehman or Bill Durnan. Maybe Tiny Thompson.

Harder to say for defensemen for reasons that are probably obvious. Maybe Eddie Shore, but I'm sure there are examples of defensemen who were less prominent.

I feel we need representation from the 30s Leafs team that lost in the Cup finals a bunch of times, but I don't know if any individual stands out as bad. Maybe Coach Dick Irvin with his 4-12 record in the Cup finals, generally coaching stacked teams? Montreal took off as soon as they replaced him with Toe Blake, but Jean Beliveau certainly had something to do with that too. Actually, Billy Reay is probably the top choice for coaches here.


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Old
03-23-2014, 12:30 PM
  #44
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Thread needs more Fleury...

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Old
03-23-2014, 12:43 PM
  #45
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First of all Dick Irvin was the 1st to roll lines on a regular basis-Devil you should no better but I guess you dont.I guess Scotty Bowman should be taken out out of hall of fame for being a jerk to players,fans and media but I presume you dont know the stories behind Bowman.By the way Im a big Bowman fan but dont make him into a angel

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03-23-2014, 01:13 PM
  #46
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First of all Dick Irvin was the 1st to roll lines on a regular basis-Devil you should no better but I guess you dont.I guess Scotty Bowman should be taken out out of hall of fame for being a jerk to players,fans and media but I presume you dont know the stories behind Bowman.By the way Im a big Bowman fan but dont make him into a angel
What's your source for that? Because this post indicates that Lester Patrick regularly changed lines in the 1925 Cup finals to tired out Howie Morenz.

Also, what does this have to do with playoff performances? Irvin was a hard driving coach and, to me many decades after the fact, his teams looked like they may have burned out in the playoffs. But again, I think Billy Reay's Chicago teams probably were the biggest underachievers.

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Old
03-23-2014, 01:35 PM
  #47
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Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
What's your source for that? Because this post indicates that Lester Patrick regularly changed lines in the 1925 Cup finals to tired out Howie Morenz.

Also, what does this have to do with playoff performances? Irvin was a hard driving coach and, to me many decades after the fact, his teams looked like they may have burned out in the playoffs. But again, I think Billy Reay's Chicago teams probably were the biggest underachievers.
Depends if one playoff series - 1925 qualifies as regularly. A quick look at the roster of the 1925 Victoria team suggests that they were short players at center and defense for a true two line or unit rotation.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1925_Stanley_Cup_Finals

Dick Irvin in Toronto had the advantage of expanded rosters, initially to 15 game day players. This easily allowed a three line , two defense pairing rotation, plus a goalie and spares.

Sturminator in his account is conflicted calling the strategy both an example of the use of two lines and the use of short shifts. Probably a hybrid of both.


Last edited by Canadiens1958: 03-23-2014 at 01:40 PM. Reason: addition
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Old
03-23-2014, 02:02 PM
  #48
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Jean Ratelle? He doesn't belong in this conversation.

http://www.hockey-reference.com/play...ratelje01.html
actually he does and he is the epitome of how "unfair" this anti clutch team can be in a way.

After all to qualify for the team one ahs to be a really good regular season player and most of these guys played on teams that weren't all that well constructed for post season success.

The only way Ratelle avoids the anti clutch team is hi play in Boston aged 35-38.

Ironically the trade to Boston was for another center who was anti-clutch before he was traded to Boston in Phil Esposito.

The fact of the matter though is that goals are usually harder to come by in the playoffs and most players decline and we should probably value clutch guys more than under rating guys who aren't clutch in the playoffs IMO.

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Old
03-23-2014, 03:27 PM
  #49
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Quote:
Originally Posted by unknown33 View Post
I'd like to rehash this question.

Sweeney Schriner and Bryan Hextall or am I missing something significant?
1930s and 1940s hockey is probably one of the least researched periods of NHL hockey. A lot has been written and researched about the star players - Shore, Morenz, the key personalities - Conn Smythe etc. but very little about the everyday nuts and bolts of NHL hockey.

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03-23-2014, 06:48 PM
  #50
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Why Schriner?
I just noticed his PPG went down a lot compared to other players of his caliber for his era.


It's merely based on what I came across when looking at his hockey-references profile and it might a totally wrong assummtion. That's why I'm asking.
Like C1958 said it's hard to find anything on some lesser players (or I'm just looking in the wrong places) from the 30s/40s.

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