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Proposal: Leafs and Caps

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Old
10-27-2004, 12:34 AM
  #51
hockeyfan125
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ensane
Well I beg to differ, and I'd be willing to be most people would as well especially the GMs of the national hockey league.

You're lucky there's no Nashville fans around. They put up with this stuff for a few years before he shipped out to Colorado.

BTW - do you want to give me any solid basis for why Klee or Salo are better than Skrastins? When I say solid basis I mean detailed analysis of tangibles. And if you don't, then you're wasting my time here.
Well, I see you have changed your stance, sir. First off you said, any team in the league he is top 4, and now you are focusing on 2? I guess you accept that you were wrong to begin with....

Klee and Salo I would take over Skrastins, just my opinion, and yours obviously differs. I do watch the Avs alot, probably 40-50 games a year. I like him, dont get me wrong, but I feel you are over-rating him.

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Old
10-27-2004, 12:39 AM
  #52
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jtuzzi21
Well, I see you have changed your stance, sir. First off you said, any team in the league he is top 4, and now you are focusing on 2? I guess you accept that you were wrong to begin with....

Klee and Salo I would take over Skrastins, just my opinion, and yours obviously differs. I do watch the Avs alot, probably 40-50 games a year. I like him, dont get me wrong, but I feel you are over-rating him.
Doesn't still mean that said issue is closed for debate. I think you could make a strong debate for Skrastins being a #4 on any team in the league. Being any lower would be a waste for that team. I can accept that my statement should be reworded. Can you accept that nearly all of the rest of your examples are easily debateable (and some are clearly reaches at best)?

And lets be honest here, you and I both know that you don't watch 40-50 Avs games per year. It might make your argument more convincing to some, but since you don't seem to want to provide any concrete details behind your "opinions" of rating Salo and Klee higher, it's not making it any better in my eyes.

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Old
10-27-2004, 12:41 AM
  #53
Blane Youngblood
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ensane
Be sure to start the following proposals then to go hand in hand with this one:
Kiril Koltsov and a 1st for Witt
AND
Kiril Lyamin and a 1st for Witt

I'd love to see the Canucks and Sens fans reactions.
As a Canucks fan I'd probably do Koltsov and a 4th (maybe even a 3rd or marginal prospect - Reid, Fedorov) for Witt. I feel that this would be taking the Caps though.

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Old
10-27-2004, 12:43 AM
  #54
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jin
As a Canucks fan I'd probably do Koltsov and a 4th (maybe even a 3rd or marginal prospect - Reid, Fedorov) for Witt. I feel that this would be taking the Caps though.
Fair enough. A 1st and a 4th (as I'm sure you know) are worlds apart in today's NHL. Koltsov's value goes up and down depending on who's talking about him though. Personally, I probably think a bit more of him than the average.

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Old
10-27-2004, 12:44 AM
  #55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ensane
Doesn't still mean that said issue is closed for debate. I think you could make a strong debate for Skrastins being a #4 on any team in the league. Being any lower would be a waste for that team. I can accept that my statement should be reworded. Can you accept that nearly all of the rest of your examples are easily debateable (and some are clearly reaches at best)?

And lets be honest here, you and I both know that you don't watch 40-50 Avs games per year. It might make your argument more convincing to some, but since you don't seem to want to provide any concrete details behind your "opinions" of rating Salo and Klee higher, it's not making it any better in my eyes.

Agree with you there. He is DEBATEABLE to be a top 4 on MOST teams. I do watch that many Avs games, I have NHL centre ice. I watch Avs, Preds, Sens, and Nucks, mostly. I agree with you that he is waste as a 5th dman, but I dont see him being a top 4 on every team, there are cleary 5-8 teams he isn't, and then a few more that he could be. I didn't want this to turn into an arguement, but we just have different opinions.

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Old
10-27-2004, 12:47 AM
  #56
Blane Youngblood
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ensane
Highly highly debateable on nearly all of them. I think the only ones I'll pass on is San Jose and probably Ottawa--both teams Witt would find himself out of the top-4 as well.

Sarich, Sopel, Salo, Klee, and Ragnarasson all IMO are just as good if not a notch below Skrastins. De Vries also would be open for debate IMO.

And you're right you ARE shooting blanks. Thanks for that one, that was priceless.
Sopel is diffinetly the Canucks #4 - Salo being #3, every Canucks fan will tell you that. For a statistical comparison between Skrastins and Sopel it gets pretty rediculous.

Skrastins 13 pts, +18, 30 years old.
Sopel 42 pts, +11, 27 years old.

Not too many people would agree with you and take Skrastins over Sopel, especially when you consider the fact that most of Sopel's even strength time is spent against the other teams top line.

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Old
10-27-2004, 12:48 AM
  #57
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jtuzzi21
Agree with you there. He is DEBATEABLE to be a top 4 on MOST teams. I do watch that many Avs games, I have NHL centre ice. I watch Avs, Preds, Sens, and Nucks, mostly. I agree with you that he is waste as a 5th dman, but I dont see him being a top 4 on every team, there are cleary 5-8 teams he isn't, and then a few more that he could be. I didn't want this to turn into an arguement, but we just have different opinions.
Actually, you provided me with only one team that I'm willing to agree with you on where he'd clearly be the #5. That team being the Sharks--my apology on overlooking them. But, where did the 5-8 figure come from all of a sudden?

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Old
10-27-2004, 12:49 AM
  #58
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ensane
You're lucky there's no Nashville fans around. They put up with this stuff for a few years before he shipped out to Colorado.
I'll bite. It's almost refreshing to see him undervalued yet while on a top notch team. I won't say Skratch is better than Witt. I won't touch that argument, though I think it's debatable. I think he's much better offensively, but, as with Nashville, Colorado fans will likely never see it because that's just not his role. In Nashville, we had guys like Timonen and Delmore to fill the roles of offensive Dman, so we relied on him solely for his defense. But ask anyone who follows Latvia and they'll tell you he holds his own on the PP. He's a solid player and is a top four on most teams. I won't say all simply because there's probably a few he would struggle to crack (teams with two really good stay at homers). But he's a top 4 Dman in my book, and I'm not sure you'd find a Preds fan out there that disagrees with that statement. Most players devalue in the eyes of fans once they leave a team, but I still see Skratch's.

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Old
10-27-2004, 12:51 AM
  #59
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ensane
Actually, you provided me with only one team that I'm willing to agree with you on where he'd clearly be the #5. That team being the Sharks--my apology on overlooking them. But, where did the 5-8 figure come from all of a sudden?
Again, my opinion

Sharks
Flyers
Ottawa
Toronto
Vancouver
Tampa Bay

But, like you are saying, Skrastins might have the TALENT to be a 4th dman on these teams, but he doesn't fit in, to replace who is in the top 4, even if they are weaker in a certain aspect then him....so its just difference of opinion.

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10-27-2004, 12:51 AM
  #60
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jin
Sopel is diffinetly the Canucks #4 - Salo being #3, every Canucks fan will tell you that. For a statistical comparison between Skrastins and Sopel it gets pretty rediculous.

Skrastins 13 pts, +18, 30 years old.
Sopel 42 pts, +11, 27 years old.

Not too many people would agree with you and take Skrastins over Sopel, especially when you consider the fact that most of Sopel's even strength time is spent against the other teams top line.
Stats isn't really a good way to go about this argument here. I do have a few numbers that I'd like to throw your way though; you can draw your own conclusions from them however.

Skrastins: 23.09 minutes per night, 0.18 powerplay minutes per night, 3.82 shorthanded minutes per night.
Sopel: 21.93 minutes per night, 3.66 powerplay minutes per night, 0.54 shorthanded minutes per night.

Age is irrelevent here as well.

Also, I'd say it's nearly common knowledge that Skrastins is better in his own end than Sopel is.

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Old
10-27-2004, 12:54 AM
  #61
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jtuzzi21
Again, my opinion

Sharks
Flyers
Ottawa
Toronto
Vancouver
Tampa Bay

But, like you are saying, Skrastins might have the TALENT to be a 4th dman on these teams, but he doesn't fit in, to replace who is in the top 4, even if they are weaker in a certain aspect then him....so its just difference of opinion.
So then if it's just your "opinion" as you say, then it's not clearly 5-8 teams that he'd be a #5 on, then is it?

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10-27-2004, 12:55 AM
  #62
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SmokeyClause
I'll bite. It's almost refreshing to see him undervalued yet while on a top notch team. I won't say Skratch is better than Witt. I won't touch that argument, though I think it's debatable. I think he's much better offensively, but, as with Nashville, Colorado fans will likely never see it because that's just not his role. In Nashville, we had guys like Timonen and Delmore to fill the roles of offensive Dman, so we relied on him solely for his defense. But ask anyone who follows Latvia and they'll tell you he holds his own on the PP. He's a solid player and is a top four on most teams. I won't say all simply because there's probably a few he would struggle to crack (teams with two really good stay at homers). But he's a top 4 Dman in my book, and I'm not sure you'd find a Preds fan out there that disagrees with that statement. Most players devalue in the eyes of fans once they leave a team, but I still see Skratch's.
That was predictable

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Old
10-27-2004, 12:59 AM
  #63
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ensane
Stats isn't really a good way to go about this argument here. I do have a few numbers that I'd like to throw your way though; you can draw your own conclusions from them however.

Skrastins: 23.09 minutes per night, 0.18 powerplay minutes per night, 3.82 shorthanded minutes per night.
Sopel: 21.93 minutes per night, 3.66 powerplay minutes per night, 0.54 shorthanded minutes per night.

Age is irrelevent here as well.

Also, I'd say it's nearly common knowledge that Skrastins is better in his own end than Sopel is.
I'd agree withat Skrastins is better in his own end then Sopel but 30 points is a large gap (especially for defenseman). I also feel that Sopel has been been treated unfairly for his defensive play because he used to make terrible giveaways. As it stands now, he does a fine job against some of the best forwards in the league. That being said, Skrastins is better defensively, but I don't think that makes up for other differences.

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Old
10-27-2004, 01:02 AM
  #64
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jin
I'd agree withat Skrastins is better in his own end then Sopel but 30 points is a large gap (especially for defenseman). I also feel that Sopel has been been treated unfairly for his defensive play because he used to make terrible giveaways. As it stands now, he does a fine job against some of the best forwards in the league. That being said, Skrastins is better defensively, but I don't think that makes up for other differences.
Fair enough. I'd value them equally on a depth chart because if Skrastins' had more of an offensive role that he could easily put up 25-30 points and still be superior in his own end. Sopel certainly isn't as bad as everyone makes him out to be--I think it's just a ploy in most cases to lower his value in trade proposals around here and what not. But, Skrastins is clearly better physically and defensively.

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10-27-2004, 01:07 AM
  #65
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jin
I'd agree withat Skrastins is better in his own end then Sopel but 30 points is a large gap (especially for defenseman). I also feel that Sopel has been been treated unfairly for his defensive play because he used to make terrible giveaways. As it stands now, he does a fine job against some of the best forwards in the league. That being said, Skrastins is better defensively, but I don't think that makes up for other differences.
If you give Skratch similar offensive ice time, he's going to put up good points too. Now, it probably won't be on Sopel's level but if you give Skratch PP time with Markus, Bert, Brendan, and Eddie, he's going to get his points. People really underestimate his offensive talents. Watch some of his Olympic footage or some film of his days in the IHL or the FNL. He has some offensive tools. He's not Gonchar but he is a great complement to Ozo on that Latvian PP blue line.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ensane
That was predictable
I just couldn't help it. I was thinking of responding to some of these ridiculous comments about Skratch on this thread and then I stumbled on your post calling out to Preds fans (in a roundabout way). It was too much for me not to respond.

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10-27-2004, 01:11 AM
  #66
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ensane
Fair enough. I'd value them equally on a depth chart because if Skrastins' had more of an offensive role that he could easily put up 25-30 points and still be superior in his own end. Sopel certainly isn't as bad as everyone makes him out to be--I think it's just a ploy in most cases to lower his value in trade proposals around here and what not. But, Skrastins is clearly better physically and defensively.
Sure why not.

As far as the initial trade proposal, I'd agree that it is rediculous right now, but if Klee or Kaberle go down with a season ender before the trade deadline, I could see something similar going down (I keep thinking of that Mattieu Schnider deal except Witt isn't quite as good).

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10-27-2004, 09:05 AM
  #67
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I'd think Witt AND a 1st for Colaiacovo would be more fair.
It's about time Toronto started to aquire some picks rather than dish them out.

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10-27-2004, 09:11 AM
  #68
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Considering the Caps pick will be a very early one and strong contender for first overall (Hello, Sidney Crosby), I doubt that would work either...

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10-27-2004, 09:24 AM
  #69
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This one may get me killed, but seems to make sense if the Leafs are still trying to win this next year (whenever that may be). Brendan Witt For Carlo Colaiacovo and #1 2006 Toronto.
Hahahahahaha

Witt has got to be one of the most overrated players on the internet.

No WAY do we give you our best defence prospect and a first round pick for a #4-#5 defenceman. Absolutely ridiculous.

The Caps WISH they could get that much for Witt...in fact if they could, he would have been gone at the deadline like Gonchar was.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jay Thompson
Perhaps if the Leafs did want to get Witt, Kaberle for Witt might be more reasonable.
:lol

Awesome.

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10-27-2004, 09:25 AM
  #70
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Here's the best idea, keep Colaiacovo and get a Witt type defenseman off the UFA market if the Leafs really want one.

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10-27-2004, 09:38 AM
  #71
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I'd love to have Witt but for Carlo AND a 1st?

bull****!

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10-27-2004, 09:41 AM
  #72
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mydnyte
I'd think Witt AND a 1st for Colaiacovo would be more fair.
It's about time Toronto started to aquire some picks rather than dish them out.
this is as laughable as the original proposal.

like mentioned the Caps 1st is going to be low most likely if not Crosby there's a good chance for someone else like Brule.

The Caps would be insane to trade their 1st for Carlo straight up, and throwing Witt in means McPhee is on drugs.

Capital fans need to realise Witt will not get them a blue chip prospect or a 1st.

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10-27-2004, 10:12 AM
  #73
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Protoman
Capital fans need to realise Witt will not get them a blue chip prospect or a 1st.

I think he can get one or the other, but not both.

And, fully agree, the initial proposal is a bit biased.

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10-27-2004, 10:44 AM
  #74
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The first post in this thread is heavily biased in the Capitals' favor, and the subsequent defense of the proposal unnecessarily disrespectful and hostile. There isn't really much more to say. Oh, except that I would tend to agree with those who aver that Karlis Skrastins is generally underrated, though where he would fall on the 30 teams' respective bluelines is open for debate.

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10-27-2004, 10:59 AM
  #75
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mooseOAK
Here's the best idea, keep Colaiacovo and get a Witt type defenseman off the UFA market if the Leafs really want one.
There are no Witt type defensemen as Free Agents. They tend to get their money. You got arguably the closest thing in a Klee type. Klee is not the gritty force Witt is. I have seen Klee for years. I know his game. Highly underrated in Washington but no Brendan Witt. Never was never will be. Did Klee's game radically change in Toronto? Nope-surrounding cast better. So it would be with Witt.

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