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Old
02-28-2012, 04:38 PM
  #301
LordHelmet
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hairylikebear View Post
What exactly is your point here? Are you trying to suggest that Neal isn't good at scoring goals? Or that when he was with Dallas, it wasn't clearly evident that he would become very good at scoring goals in the future? I'm seriously asking. All those statistics show to me is that Neal had a major slump which is normal for a 21 year old.
You said that Neal was "A young, cost controlled sniper who wins physical battles, gets open, and scores goals."

Sure he was. For 23 games. For the next 36, he he was not sniping, winning physical battles, getting open, or scoring goals.

You can claim that he was an awesome, physical sniper 21 year old who had a normal slump. Of course, you could just as easily say that he was a floating, turnover prone player who had a hot streak to start the year.

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02-28-2012, 04:53 PM
  #302
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Originally Posted by EndBoards View Post
Other than Souray, Dvorak & Burish, we don't have any pending UFA's.

Like I keep saying, we can still trade most of these guys next year.
Yes, I'm aware. I think we could have acquired 4 or 5 picks for those 3 players. Souray could feasibly bring a 2nd and a 4th, while Burish and Dvorak could probably each net a 3rd. As for the other guys, their value will never be higher than it is now. Yesterday was our chance to maximize our return for those guys and we decided that another ill-fated run at the playoffs was more important than jump starting the rebuild. But whatevs, I'll just grin, bare it and hope that this recent streak was the start of something great.

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02-28-2012, 04:55 PM
  #303
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Originally Posted by TangoMcBride View Post
Yes, I'm aware. I think we could have acquired 4 or 5 picks for those 3 players. Souray could feasibly bring a 2nd and a 4th, while Burish and Dvorak could probably each net a 3rd. As for the other guys, their value will never be higher than it is now. Yesterday was our chance to maximize our return for those guys and we decided that another ill-fated run at the playoffs was more important than jump starting the rebuild. But whatevs, I'll just grin, bare it and hope that this recent streak was the start of something great.
we can't call it ill fated until we don't make it which will probably be the last game of the season

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Old
02-28-2012, 05:03 PM
  #304
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Originally Posted by TangoMcBride View Post
Yes, I'm aware. I think we could have acquired 4 or 5 picks for those 3 players. Souray could feasibly bring a 2nd and a 4th, while Burish and Dvorak could probably each net a 3rd. As for the other guys, their value will never be higher than it is now. Yesterday was our chance to maximize our return for those guys and we decided that another ill-fated run at the playoffs was more important than jump starting the rebuild.
What you're suggesting is that this team go into full rebuild mode and completely dump the rest of this season, a season that while we have a strong schedule ahead..we are in a playoff spot right now. Both Joe and Tom have both said they're not going into full on rebuild mode, and while I'm upset we didn't trade at least one player to get some future assets, what you're talking about is completely blowing up this franchise so we can look forward to the future. I'm sure we'll see a lot of things happen in the offseason (they better) but to just send the message that even though we know you've fought all season to get where we are (and it's pretty remarkable they're even where they are considering how much talent every other team around us has), that it has been all for naught because we're just gonna go off and trade everyone...it's the wrong message to send. Not only to the team but to future UFAs that are even thinking of coming here (lol at the thought of UFAs wanting to come here atm).

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Old
02-28-2012, 05:07 PM
  #305
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Originally Posted by Stars99Lobo37 View Post
(lol at the thought of UFAs wanting to come here atm).
That guy who's gonna be a 30g scorer didn't mind.

Not that I don't agree with you. Ya we probably won't land Parise. But we have the ability to overpay and ToI to offer. Unfortunately there's not too many top 6 players buried on 3rd lines like Ryder's situation was, but you never konw.

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02-28-2012, 05:13 PM
  #306
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vofty View Post
This is from Andy Strickland:
http://truehockey.com/articles/Trade-Deadline-Reaction


So I would say astronomical is a fitting description of the price the Stars were asking.
I would have to agree if that's the case. I generally trust Strickland.

Both of those demands are at least an order of magnitude higher than each player's worth. I considered Ott's value to be a 2nd + mid-to-upper-tier prospect and Souray's to be about a 3rd.

Nieuwendyk comes across a bit as a guy who's gotten burned in trading and is now being ultra-protective of his assets.

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02-28-2012, 05:22 PM
  #307
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I think our situation is a bit overblown when it comes to free agents wanting to play here. We have stable ownership, a GM who isn't too far removed from being a player, and exciting young players who are in their prime. Making the playoffs this year would somewhat be an attraction.

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Old
02-28-2012, 05:32 PM
  #308
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EndBoards View Post
You can claim that he was an awesome, physical sniper 21 year old who had a normal slump. Of course, you could just as easily say that he was a floating, turnover prone player who had a hot streak to start the year.
Both of those attitudes are justifiable. My problem is with people that thought the former before he was traded, and the latter immediately after.

Of course, recent information would suggest the first evaluation was the correct one...

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02-28-2012, 05:56 PM
  #309
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Originally Posted by Stars99Lobo37 View Post
What you're suggesting is that this team go into full rebuild mode and completely dump the rest of this season, a season that while we have a strong schedule ahead..we are in a playoff spot right now. Both Joe and Tom have both said they're not going into full on rebuild mode, and while I'm upset we didn't trade at least one player to get some future assets, what you're talking about is completely blowing up this franchise so we can look forward to the future. I'm sure we'll see a lot of things happen in the offseason (they better) but to just send the message that even though we know you've fought all season to get where we are (and it's pretty remarkable they're even where they are considering how much talent every other team around us has), that it has been all for naught because we're just gonna go off and trade everyone...it's the wrong message to send. Not only to the team but to future UFAs that are even thinking of coming here (lol at the thought of UFAs wanting to come here atm).
I think that too many people have been swayed by this recent streak. Were these past four games impressive? Without a doubt. But that sample size is miniscule. We need to look at the bigger picture here, for a majority of the season we have looked like a subpar team who gets embarrassed by the upper echelon...and as we all know, the schedule down the stretch is absolutely brutal. Could this streak be the spark that this team needed? Perhaps, but in my mind, that seems highly unlikely.

When looking at the landscape of buyers and sellers, we had a rare opportunity to really cash in on some of our assets at top dollar. Like I've mentioned before, throwing in the towel now would give us the chance to get a good look at Fraser/Glennie/JoBenn/Dillon/etc. whilst simultaneously putting ourselves in a position to potentially draft a stud in the draft. This would accelerate the rebuilding process which is really what we need to do considering this should have been done years ago.

At the risk of sounding like a dick, I couldn't care less about the message that it would send the players. Their job is to play and win hockey games. If they fail to win enough games to convince their GM that they are legitimate contenders then they run the risk of being shipped out. The players that remain should actually be happy that our GM seems to have a long term plan for sustained success rather than being pissed off that a 4 game winning streak didn't convince him that this team is a contender.


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Old
02-28-2012, 05:58 PM
  #310
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I don't disagree with most of what you're saying, but you'd be hard pressed to find ANY GM in the league who would trade all their important UFAs away and rely on 4-5 call ups while in a playoff position. It's just not realistic.

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02-28-2012, 05:59 PM
  #311
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Originally Posted by UnholyPrince View Post
That guy who's gonna be a 30g scorer didn't mind.

Not that I don't agree with you. Ya we probably won't land Parise. But we have the ability to overpay and ToI to offer. Unfortunately there's not too many top 6 players buried on 3rd lines like Ryder's situation was, but you never konw.
I doubt we get either of them (Suter or Parise) without a pretty large raise over the 2nd highest offer.

I'd pay 8 million at max for Suter, 7 for Parise. I know it's a ton for Suter, but that's what we'd realistically have to offer to even have a chance, and he's a top 10 defenseman in the league.

I doubt we'll have room to sign them both and stay comfortably under the cap. There's no way we could snag both, either. I'd rather have Suter, but beggars can't be chosers. Either one would be a welcome addition.

As for ToI, I think every team in the league would be able to offer both players significant ES, PP, and PK time. Both are so versatile and skilled in all 3 zones.

Just give Joe some time. If we still had Neal, you'd all be whining about our defense. If we'd have drafted Fowler, he might not even be in the NHL with the way we take our time with prospects. The only questionable thing he's done in my eyes is drafting Glennie, and that was a panic pick that isn't entirely his fault.

Just give him some time. It's not like he inherited a team that needed a couple pieces to be a contender. It takes time and patience to build a team like that, and making the playoffs this season is a huge step towards that goal.

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Old
02-28-2012, 06:02 PM
  #312
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Quote:
Originally Posted by piqued View Post
I would have to agree if that's the case. I generally trust Strickland.

Both of those demands are at least an order of magnitude higher than each player's worth. I considered Ott's value to be a 2nd + mid-to-upper-tier prospect and Souray's to be about a 3rd.

Nieuwendyk comes across a bit as a guy who's gotten burned in trading and is now being ultra-protective of his assets.
I'll look into this more tomorrow, but I don't know that those asking prices are too far off..

Gill + a 5th brought back a 2nd and two prospects
Souray's numbers are better than his across the board.

Pahlsson brought back 2 4th's and a prospect. Ott is younger and better (in some ways) than Pahlsson.

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Old
02-28-2012, 06:04 PM
  #313
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I think we're underrating our players a bit. Scouts don't get to see the entire season they play, and they might catch a couple great games by certain players.

But those prices are more than overpayment. I really hope those weren't the asking prices. Souray is worth a mid level prospect, or a 3rd rounder, at best.

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02-28-2012, 06:44 PM
  #314
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Originally Posted by UnholyPrince View Post
I don't disagree with most of what you're saying, but you'd be hard pressed to find ANY GM in the league who would trade all their important UFAs away and rely on 4-5 call ups while in a playoff position. It's just not realistic.
In this day and age of loser points I think that it is exceedingly important for a GM to be able to properly evaluate his team and ask himself "is this team really a contender?". Outside of Columbus and Edmonton, everyone is still in the race, and when you take into account our remaining schedule and our propensity to suck ass against the top level competition that we will be facing, you come to the conclusion that the playoffs are unlikely and a deep run in the playoffs is a pipe dream. There's nothing worse than a kool aid drinking GM who fails to properly evaluate his squad. I've had to suffer through that with Jerry Jones, I really hope I don't have to do that with Nieuwy too.

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02-28-2012, 07:15 PM
  #315
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stars99Lobo37 View Post
What you're suggesting is that this team go into full rebuild mode and completely dump the rest of this season, a season that while we have a strong schedule ahead..we are in a playoff spot right now. Both Joe and Tom have both said they're not going into full on rebuild mode, and while I'm upset we didn't trade at least one player to get some future assets, what you're talking about is completely blowing up this franchise so we can look forward to the future. I'm sure we'll see a lot of things happen in the offseason (they better) but to just send the message that even though we know you've fought all season to get where we are (and it's pretty remarkable they're even where they are considering how much talent every other team around us has), that it has been all for naught because we're just gonna go off and trade everyone...it's the wrong message to send. Not only to the team but to future UFAs that are even thinking of coming here (lol at the thought of UFAs wanting to come here atm).
trading Burish Souray and Dvorak would certainly e giving up on the season but it sure as hell wouldnt be going into rebuild mode.

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Old
02-29-2012, 08:06 AM
  #316
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Originally Posted by LatvianTwist View Post
I doubt we get either of them (Suter or Parise) without a pretty large raise over the 2nd highest offer.

I'd pay 8 million at max for Suter, 7 for Parise. I know it's a ton for Suter, but that's what we'd realistically have to offer to even have a chance, and he's a top 10 defenseman in the league.

I doubt we'll have room to sign them both and stay comfortably under the cap. There's no way we could snag both, either. I'd rather have Suter, but beggars can't be chosers. Either one would be a welcome addition.
Any scenario that fits them both under the cap in Dallas probably means moving other salary out. Goligoski raise + Benn raise + Suter salary + Parise salary is about 22 million bucks or so added to the payroll.

40 million going into the off-season without including any FA's. So once you replace/re-sign any FA's on the roster now plus extensions plus Suter and Parise, you're looking at going over the cap.

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02-29-2012, 08:09 AM
  #317
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Originally Posted by hairylikebear View Post
What exactly is your point here? Are you trying to suggest that Neal isn't good at scoring goals? Or that when he was with Dallas, it wasn't clearly evident that he would become very good at scoring goals in the future? I'm seriously asking. All those statistics show to me is that Neal had a major slump which is normal for a 21 year old.
James Neal hasn't been 21 since 2008. He was traded in 2011.

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02-29-2012, 01:23 PM
  #318
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Originally Posted by Shady12 View Post
James Neal hasn't been 21 since 2008. He was traded in 2011.
A lot has been made of the James Neal trade but I think you gotta take into account that Neal is now playing with the best playmaker in the NHL and goal scorers thrive on scoring goals. Neal's motor stays high because he doesn't hit slumps. Malkin continually feeds him the puck in goal scoring areas. Easy to stay motivated that way. Totally unfair to say he would be the same player here.

I would like to think we could've gotten more for him but at the time the trade was made, I don't think you could have. Now of course you could. But if Neal wasn't playing with Malkin would he revert back to the player we had? I think so.

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02-29-2012, 02:16 PM
  #319
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A lot has been made of the James Neal trade but I think you gotta take into account that Neal is now playing with the best playmaker in the NHL and goal scorers thrive on scoring goals. Neal's motor stays high because he doesn't hit slumps. Malkin continually feeds him the puck in goal scoring areas. Easy to stay motivated that way. Totally unfair to say he would be the same player here.

I would like to think we could've gotten more for him but at the time the trade was made, I don't think you could have. Now of course you could. But if Neal wasn't playing with Malkin would he revert back to the player we had? I think so.
Well I agree, did you quote me on accident?

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02-29-2012, 11:35 PM
  #320
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I'm curious, who do you guys think should be seeing top pairing D minutes at this point?

We all know Souray-Robidas is horrible, despite them being our team's #1 unit atm. I used to say Larsen would be a better option, but I think he's regressed a bit since coming back from that injury. He's had a brutal stretch of games recently. Goose obviously isn't anywhere close to reliable defensively enough to take top matchups. Fistric had some brutal games after Grossman was traded - he's settled down since but obviously not top pairing wise. So that leaves us Daley?

It's kinda weird that in these past 5 games, despite going 4-0-1, Daley has really been the only D-man who's been OK in his own end. Is Robidas-Souray really the best we can do as a shutdown unit? I think Goose-Larsen experiment isn't working UNLESS the coaching staff specifically uses them for offensive zone draws and situations. They aren't strong enough to be a regular pairing against top competition. Goose needs a guy like Fistric to clean up his mess.

Does that leave us:

Souray-Robidas
Daley-Larsen
Goose-Fistric

Or do we utilize a slightly rejuvenated Souray and an impressive Daley as the top unit?

Souray-Daley
Goose-Robidas
Fistric-Larsen

I guess its silly to speculate since Jerrad and HCGG have their own ideas about what works. But what do you guys think about the pairings and matchups recently, and how everyone's performing in the post-Grossman lineup?

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03-01-2012, 01:48 AM
  #321
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Remember that Nieuwendyk's plan this season was to moderate everyone's minutes so no one gets burnt out. Therefore, you have to match defensemen based on the minute they're expected to play so that games with a lot of penalties don't cause defensemen to play inflated or deflated minutes.

For example, if Daley-Larsen is a pairing, in a game where the Stars are penalized often (which is most games), either Larsen would get barely any minutes, or Daley would get too many. In a game where Dallas gets a lot of PP opportunities, Fistric would barely play at all because Goligoski usually plays almost the entire PP.

To me, Goligoski - Larsen makes a lot of sense, because in a game with lots of penalties against, it doesn't matter because they don't kill penalties. They'd just get a lot of ES minutes while the PKers are resting. In a game with lots of penalties for, Goligoski plays a little more, and Larsen plays a little less which is fine because the extra PP minutes aren't too strenuous and Larsen is less effective in games heavy in special teams. In games with few penalties, that pairing gets a lot of minutes because Larsen is a terrific 5v5 player.

Another way to look at it is, say you have to kill a major penalty, or several penalties in a short time, who do you send out when that's done if you have a critical PKer on every pairing?

Souray - Fistric is obviously horrible and really doesn't need elaboration. You can rule that pairing out.

So that leaves Souray - Robidas/Daley and Fistric - Robidas/Daley, and you just go with who's comfortable playing with who and you end up with the pairings they're using now.

When Larsen starts killing penalties more you can get really creative with the pairings, but until then, you risk being at the mercy of the officiating for determining who gets to play when.

To me, the ideal solution is to make the best even strength pairings ignoring the whole special teams nonsense, mix pairings up on the fly if you have 4 defensemen that desperately need rest, but that gets confusing and causes too many men penalties. Some coaches have more trouble with that than others it seems.

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03-01-2012, 07:03 AM
  #322
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Robidas, Daley, and Larsen have been our best three players defensively in recent games.

Daley, Souray, and Goligoski have been our best offensive D men.

And Fistric is more of a momentum changing D man with his huge hits, but he's also not awful in his own zone, and can be solid at times.

Robidas and Larsen are the only RHD we have, so one pair is only LHD.

I'd go with:

Daley - Souray
Goligoski - Robidas
Fistric - Larsen

But there isn't much regard to ice time in those for me.

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03-01-2012, 07:20 AM
  #323
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Larsen does kill penalties.

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03-01-2012, 08:48 AM
  #324
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Why are people on the main board so cross towards Nystrom? I just read someone calling him a "rotten ****" but I don't remember him ever really doing much of anything...

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03-01-2012, 09:14 AM
  #325
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Why are people on the main board so cross towards Nystrom? I just read someone calling him a "rotten ****" but I don't remember him ever really doing much of anything...
Standard crybaby pens fans...

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