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Old
06-18-2012, 08:30 AM
  #201
Millhaus
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Originally Posted by Chimaera View Post
Except the French disappointment was a lot of off the pitch more so than the Dutch problems (which was just poor performance on the pitch).

The French refused to practice, had a few bust ups, basically came back in disgrace.

Sure, the Dutch played poorly, but they're not acting like babies.
Well sure but I was just talking about on the field expectations. France didn't get out of their group at Euro 2008 and didn't go the South Africa with the expectations this Dutch team did.

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06-18-2012, 10:13 PM
  #202
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Croatia gets screwed, Spain way WAY offsides on the only goal of the game.

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06-19-2012, 12:17 AM
  #203
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I was recently looking at some stats from this season and noticed that Messi broke one of Gretzky's records. He scored 50 goals in 37 league games. That's absolutely ridiculous for a soccer player.

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06-19-2012, 05:37 PM
  #204
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Into the final eight now. Spain and Germany should cruise. Portugal is my dark horse.

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06-19-2012, 08:35 PM
  #205
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How do they miss that goal line play against England? Sad that FIFA refuses goal line technology.

Looking forward to some great matchups in the quarters...

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06-20-2012, 08:58 AM
  #206
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Originally Posted by sycamore View Post
Into the final eight now. Spain and Germany should cruise. Portugal is my dark horse.
The way Greece play that is not going to be an easy game for the Germans. I could easily see that game finish nil nil and go to PKs and the way Bayern lost in PKs to Chelski there would be a few German PK takers with negative thoughts in the back of their minds. And if they get past the Greeks then they get either Italy or England, which again isn't going to be an easy game.

France isn't going to be easy opposition for Spain either and after that they are likely to get their Iberian neighbors who aren't going to just roll over.

When you get down to the last 8 in any major international tournament it becomes a crap shoot IMO.

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06-20-2012, 09:23 AM
  #207
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None of the games are "easy" at this point. Germany wins a 2-0 game IMO.

Germany
Portugal
Italy
Spain

Germany
Spain

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06-22-2012, 05:49 PM
  #208
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Well done CR7.


Germany rolls with their 1b team....who's next?!!?

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06-24-2012, 04:12 PM
  #209
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English forwards look like the Keystone Cops out there.

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06-24-2012, 04:27 PM
  #210
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Kind of glad Italy won on pks -- they were the more deserving team. Not that it matters because they will get creamed by Germany

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06-24-2012, 04:34 PM
  #211
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I really wanted England to win.. so I could watch them get run over by Germany

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06-24-2012, 04:51 PM
  #212
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What a snoozefest tonight! Thank god England lost. They've ruined every game they played in.

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06-24-2012, 05:00 PM
  #213
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Was hopping England somehow get through, as us Germans have never beaten Italy in a tournament.

It is time so to revenge 2006. We have not forgotten the antics before the game by the Italians and their media. Still do not know how they got Frings suspended.

Lets see what gameplan Loew comes up with.

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06-24-2012, 06:15 PM
  #214
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Germany won't do it.. but if you put one guy to simply shadow Pirlo, Italy will have literally 0 offense. It's amazing how dependent they are on him.

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06-25-2012, 08:56 AM
  #215
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Originally Posted by artilector View Post
Germany won't do it.. but if you put one guy to simply shadow Pirlo, Italy will have literally 0 offense. It's amazing how dependent they are on him.
I don't think that is necessarily true. Yes everything runs through Pirlo currently but that is because that is allowed because of how deep he plays. Their 3 other midfielders are all very capable though and have produced on big stages for their clubs.

Also man marking a deep lying playmaker can really upset the balance of your team as the type of player who would normally be assigned that role is usually a guy who does a lot of shielding of the backline. For Germany that would be Khedira but with Schweinsteiger already a questionmark for the semis with an ankle injury do you really want to upset the balance of your midfield like that?

For me it comes down to do you feel you have to adjust what you do to win the game and if I am Low I do not feel that way. I would be licking my lips at the thought of Özil taking advantage of Pirlo when we had the ball.

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06-25-2012, 11:24 AM
  #216
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Originally Posted by Brave Sir Robin View Post
What a snoozefest tonight! Thank god England lost. They've ruined every game they played in.
England Sweden was the game of the tournament for me. Did you miss that one or do we just have entirely different metrics for what a good game is?

Or were you just being hyperbolic?

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06-25-2012, 12:05 PM
  #217
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Originally Posted by Millhaus View Post
I don't think that is necessarily true. Yes everything runs through Pirlo currently but that is because that is allowed because of how deep he plays. Their 3 other midfielders are all very capable though and have produced on big stages for their clubs.

Also man marking a deep lying playmaker can really upset the balance of your team as the type of player who would normally be assigned that role is usually a guy who does a lot of shielding of the backline. For Germany that would be Khedira but with Schweinsteiger already a questionmark for the semis with an ankle injury do you really want to upset the balance of your midfield like that?

For me it comes down to do you feel you have to adjust what you do to win the game and if I am Low I do not feel that way. I would be licking my lips at the thought of Özil taking advantage of Pirlo when we had the ball.
Well that's why I said Germany won't do it, they seem to be firing on all cylinders and it's not really their nature to make big adjustments to the opponent.

But still, I doubt Italy's other midfielders can pick up the slack for Pirlo. It's a bit like England's midfielders -- yeah, good in their clubs in specific roles, but put them together, and there is nobody to drive the offense. Ok, so Italians are more skilled, but still, the degree to which every promising pass originates with Pirlo is astounding.

Besides, Germany plays 5 in midfield, right? Should be decently easy to re-arrange things to put a guy on Pirlo. I'm not that impressed with Cassano & Balotelli anyway, but if Pirlo gets effectively shut down, they just might become almost completely ineffective. So you need less defensive midfielders..

You can also put Ozil in after the 1st half. Start a guy with high work-rate to tire out Pirlo and the Italians, then put in Ozil with fresh legs. I don't know, perhaps Mueller?

Just read Italy-England review on one of my favorite soccer sites today:

http://www.zonalmarking.net/2012/06/...pirlo-tactics/

Quote:
Italy’s diamond controlled the game, and Pirlo was the star player – he set the tempo and created chances. England’s failure to deal with him was criminal, and Rooney’s defensive role must be questioned
Though your point about Ozil running past him is good.. but in this case I really feel that Italy will be helpless if he's dealt with. Especially the forwards -- Balotelli seems completely dependent on Pirlo's passes, Cassano is not that impressive. If Pirlo's ineffective, so are they, and Germany should be able to really exploit their 5-on-4 advantage in midfield, even if their structure is not totally ideal adjusting for Pirlo..

But in any case, I expect Germany to win. This Italian team is completely unimpressive -- not that tight defensively, and the forwards are not great finishers (by Italy's standards, of course).

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06-25-2012, 01:24 PM
  #218
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Originally Posted by Captain Conservative View Post
England Sweden was the game of the tournament for me. Did you miss that one or do we just have entirely different metrics for what a good game is?

Or were you just being hyperbolic?
Yeah, I missed that one. After watching England - France I kind of had my fill of England for a while.

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06-25-2012, 06:00 PM
  #219
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Originally Posted by Brave Sir Robin View Post
Yeah, I missed that one. After watching England - France I kind of had my fill of England for a while.
Its the same old thing with England year after year (heck decade after decade): great defence, great midfield, useless forwards. I really cannot understand the infatuation with Rooney, particularly now that he's older and doesnt have the same burst he had as a kid. Big, yes, strong, yes, decent shot, yes, skilled with the ball, a resounding no -- looks like he has two left feet out there.
Really hope they go a with totally new front line for Brazil in 2 years.

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06-25-2012, 06:34 PM
  #220
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Well that's why I said Germany won't do it, they seem to be firing on all cylinders and it's not really their nature to make big adjustments to the opponent.

But still, I doubt Italy's other midfielders can pick up the slack for Pirlo. It's a bit like England's midfielders -- yeah, good in their clubs in specific roles, but put them together, and there is nobody to drive the offense. Ok, so Italians are more skilled, but still, the degree to which every promising pass originates with Pirlo is astounding.
I don't think everything flows through Pirlo because they feel they have to they do it because they choose to IMO because Pirlo plays such a unique position and it isn't a role that is easily dealt with. Their other 3 midfielders play forward of him but fairly central so they already outnumber the normal 2 defensive minded central midfielders of the 4-2-3-1 that both England and Germany play. You can't bring one of your 2 forward to try to pressure Pirlo more and thinking defense first is not normally in the makeup of your attacking bent forward 3 midfielders.

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Originally Posted by artilector View Post
Besides, Germany plays 5 in midfield, right? Should be decently easy to re-arrange things to put a guy on Pirlo. I'm not that impressed with Cassano & Balotelli anyway, but if Pirlo gets effectively shut down, they just might become almost completely ineffective. So you need less defensive midfielders..

You can also put Ozil in after the 1st half. Start a guy with high work-rate to tire out Pirlo and the Italians, then put in Ozil with fresh legs. I don't know, perhaps Mueller?
Ozil has been their best player IMO and their usual wide attacking midfielders/wingers, Podolski and Muller are more or less forwards. None of those 3 are asked to do too much on the defensive side of the ball simply because they are not suited to it.

And that is the crux of the matter as far as why Pirlo is so difficult to stop, the guys who would normally be tasked with that job based on theirs and his usual position on the field are not guys who usually are asked to do much of anything defensively. So Rooney didn't do what was necessary to make things more difficult for Pirlo? Is anyone surprised by that?

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Originally Posted by artilector View Post
Just read Italy-England review on one of my favorite soccer sites today:

http://www.zonalmarking.net/2012/06/...pirlo-tactics/



Though your point about Ozil running past him is good.. but in this case I really feel that Italy will be helpless if he's dealt with. Especially the forwards -- Balotelli seems completely dependent on Pirlo's passes, Cassano is not that impressive. If Pirlo's ineffective, so are they, and Germany should be able to really exploit their 5-on-4 advantage in midfield, even if their structure is not totally ideal adjusting for Pirlo..

But in any case, I expect Germany to win. This Italian team is completely unimpressive -- not that tight defensively, and the forwards are not great finishers (by Italy's standards, of course).
For me the decision to alter your very effective tactics to combat someone else's tactics comes down to can you do it without changing what makes your side tick. Ozil makes Germany tick IMO. Not playing him would be unthinkable to me and asking to play a role he isn't suited for makes little sense.

Germany will have to and should have no problem taking advantage of Italy's narrow midfield and using their fullbacks, especially Lahm, to overlap Italy's unsupported fullbacks who will have their hands full with Podolski and Muller alone. And Ozil will make Pirlo work harder defensively than he has had to all tournament by a good amount.

I agree that I expect Germany to win and I think they can do it without altering what they do best simply to try to stop Pirlo. I expect Germany to have a decent amount more of the ball and force Italy to alter their approach to deal with the Germans' width. That will take away a player of two from Pirlo's shield and force him to have to do more of the heavy lifting on the defensive side, which his old legs will not be up to for 90 minutes IMO.

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06-25-2012, 07:11 PM
  #221
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Meh, I think even without going crazy all Germany needs to do is retain 4 in midfield including Ozil, the two current DMs, and somebody else, and add a guy like Muller to track Pirlo on defense and exploit seams on offense. So you'd have effectively almost 5-4 in midfield, and the sole German forward would still be far more effective than Italy's two, because those two would become ineffective without service from Pirlo.

It will be more difficult if Italy admits that they are the inferior team, and takes one forward off for yet another midfielder.. for example playing the christmas tree 4-3-2-1 like Milan used to do.. well then I'd still put a guy on Pirlo, deleting or re-assigning one of the DMs.

Basically, I don't think Germany needs two DMs against Italy. Instead of two DMs in traditional positions, they need a guy higher up on Pirlo. As for Italy's diamond, they can play their own diamond. And then the guy who normally tracks Pirlo can provide width in attack.

On the other hand, England's mistake, IMO, was that they had two forwards in a game where they had no (chance at) possession. These forwards were basically useless as forwards without service from tired and unimaginative midfield. I don't know what the deal with Rooney was, but I am pretty sure England would've been a lot better off if they took off a forward and assigned a guy to track Pirlo.

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06-25-2012, 08:27 PM
  #222
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I just don't see the point of the superior team, Germany, altering the tactics they have used to cruise through qualifying and this tournament because of one player on the inferior team. Germany is so much better technically and tactically than England so Italy is not going to see anywhere close to the amount of the ball they saw last game. And while changing those tactics to try to account for Pirlo might make Italy less effective when they have the ball it is also going to make Germany less effective when they have the ball.

If Low felt Italy were the better team and the only way they really stood a chance was to try to shackle Pirlo I would 100% agree they would need to alter their setup to do that. But that isn't the case and Pirlo is going to spend so much time chasing Ozil that that will go a long way towards limiting his effectiveness without having to change anything.


Last edited by Millhaus: 06-25-2012 at 08:49 PM.
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06-25-2012, 08:36 PM
  #223
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I know what you're saying, I just think neutralizing Pirlo would make Germany-Italy gap even larger, without really having to sacrifice much.

But in any case, the tactical matchups should be quite interesting to watch. Not sure about the game itself -- don't remember the last time an Italy game was entertaining to watch, lol.

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06-25-2012, 10:43 PM
  #224
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Originally Posted by sycamore View Post
Its the same old thing with England year after year (heck decade after decade): great defence, great midfield, useless forwards. I really cannot understand the infatuation with Rooney, particularly now that he's older and doesnt have the same burst he had as a kid. Big, yes, strong, yes, decent shot, yes, skilled with the ball, a resounding no -- looks like he has two left feet out there.
Really hope they go a with totally new front line for Brazil in 2 years.
I beg to differ, in 1998 England had 2 terrific strikers - Shearer and Owen. By 2002 Shearer may have retired from the national team (I can't remember) but Owen was still great. T

Since Scholes retired and Beckham moved to Real Madrid English midfield became very average. Gerrard, Lampard and others, much like Rooney, always played like crap for the national team. Defense is the only part of the English NT that stayed solid.

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06-26-2012, 12:53 AM
  #225
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Originally Posted by sycamore View Post
Its the same old thing with England year after year (heck decade after decade): great defence, great midfield, useless forwards. I really cannot understand the infatuation with Rooney, particularly now that he's older and doesnt have the same burst he had as a kid. Big, yes, strong, yes, decent shot, yes, skilled with the ball, a resounding no -- looks like he has two left feet out there.
Really hope they go a with totally new front line for Brazil in 2 years.
Did you seriously say England has great midfielders? Their midfield is the biggest reason why they looked so bad. The forwards look even worse because the midfielders could barely hold on to the ball long enough to get them service.

The Scousebag had one of his better tournaments, and he was still completely useless outside of crosses.

Parker and Milner ran around like headless chickens, but can't fault them because that's all they are capable of.

The Arsenal wingers could run really fast down the touchline and not much else. Walcott can't even do that without getting hurt.

Didn't even know Ashley Young even played until he Englanded that PK.

How the English value midfielders is completely assbackwards in the modern game. They put themselves in this position by forcing Scholes out for the Scousebag and Fat Frank. Meanwhile Carrick has all but 22 caps to his name.

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