HFBoards

Go Back   HFBoards > Fantasy Hockey Talk > All Time Draft
Mobile Hockey's Future Become a Sponsor Site Rules Support Forum vBookie Page 2
Notices

All Time Draft Fantasy league where players of the past and present meet.

ATD 2012 - Draft Thread V

Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools
Old
02-16-2012, 11:10 AM
  #251
TheDevilMadeMe
Registered User
 
TheDevilMadeMe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Brooklyn
Country: United States
Posts: 45,406
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by BenchBrawl View Post
I didn't even feel I needed balls to pick Boyle , he just simply was on top of my list.As far as his norris vote being overrated , the bias toward ''offensive dman'' might be warranted , or not.Boyle isn't a strickly offensive defenseman either , he is the clear number 1 on those teams and was often top 10 in the league , and he was n1 on strong teams (mainly SJ) His playoff records is also incredibly good.I think he's perfect to build my 2nd pairing around and I also needed PP QB , which is done now.There isn't a lot of defenseman in this era that was as consistant as Boyle except the usual suspects.
It's only been the last few seasons that Boyle has emerged as the clear #1. For most of his career, he wasn't getting the tough assignments at even strength and rarely PKed. I definitely think you want whatever pairing he's on in this to be used more offensively than defensively.

In the ATD, I think his defense is best characterized as "not a liability."

TheDevilMadeMe is offline  
Old
02-16-2012, 11:10 AM
  #252
Hawkey Town 18
Moderator
 
Hawkey Town 18's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Chicago, IL
Posts: 5,579
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
Hay's also a better playmaker - Heatley a better goal scorer.
I agree with this, and with Cook on the line I think a playmaker is a better fit.

Hawkey Town 18 is offline  
Old
02-16-2012, 11:13 AM
  #253
BenchBrawl
joueur de hockey
 
BenchBrawl's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Posts: 13,884
vCash: 800
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
It's only been the last few seasons that Boyle has emerged as the clear #1. For most of his career, he wasn't getting the tough assignments at even strength and rarely PKed. I definitely think you want whatever pairing he's on in this to be used more offensively than defensively.

In the ATD, I think his defense is best characterized as "not a liability."
I drafted him for his offense anyway , but I wouldn't have drafted him if he was a complete headcase in his own zone.

BenchBrawl is offline  
Old
02-16-2012, 11:15 AM
  #254
TheDevilMadeMe
Registered User
 
TheDevilMadeMe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Brooklyn
Country: United States
Posts: 45,406
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by BenchBrawl View Post
I drafted him for his offense anyway , but I wouldn't have drafted him if he was a complete headcase in his own zone.
Oh yeah, he's totally fine in his own zone, as long as you aren't putting a big defensive burden on him.

TheDevilMadeMe is offline  
Old
02-16-2012, 11:18 AM
  #255
BenchBrawl
joueur de hockey
 
BenchBrawl's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Posts: 13,884
vCash: 800
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
Oh yeah, he's totally fine in his own zone, as long as you aren't putting a big defensive burden on him.
I see Boyle as a defenseman who has a bias toward offense , but capable of playing defense so he's not a PP specialist.

Boyle is actually a french-canadien (just saying it because I don't think it's a known fact)


Last edited by BenchBrawl: 02-16-2012 at 11:25 AM.
BenchBrawl is offline  
Old
02-16-2012, 11:28 AM
  #256
overpass
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts: 3,778
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by BenchBrawl View Post
I see Boyle as a defenseman who has a bias toward offense , but capable of playing defense so he's not a PP specialist.

Boyle is actually a french-canadien (just saying it because I don't think it's a known fact)
Yeah, he's a French-Canadien from Ottawa with an Irish name.

You can tell when you see him though, he has those distinctive French-Canadien features.

overpass is offline  
Old
02-16-2012, 11:31 AM
  #257
BenchBrawl
joueur de hockey
 
BenchBrawl's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Posts: 13,884
vCash: 800
Quote:
Originally Posted by overpass View Post
Yeah, he's a French-Canadien from Ottawa with an Irish name.

You can tell when you see him though, he has those distinctive French-Canadien features.
I would be really curious to know what is a ''distinctive french-canadian feature''

BenchBrawl is offline  
Old
02-16-2012, 11:42 AM
  #258
overpass
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts: 3,778
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by BenchBrawl View Post
I would be really curious to know what is a ''distinctive french-canadian feature''
Oh, you know, they all look the same

But seriously I think French Canadians have a much more distinct look than English Canadians because they share the same ethnic background and have been fairly isolated for hundreds of years. Dark hair is part of that. I have a hard time defining facial features but I would say that Dany Heatley, for example, does not look French-Canadian. Jean Beliveau does/did.

overpass is offline  
Old
02-16-2012, 11:46 AM
  #259
Velociraptor
Registered User
 
Velociraptor's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Maritimes
Country: Canada
Posts: 10,912
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by nik jr View Post
Kazan selects RW Zigmund Palffy.

averaged over a point per game even though he generally had weak support and his prime fell in a defensive period. 10th in points and 7th in points per game from '96-'06.

also played a 2 way game with LAK (i rarely saw him with NYI).
Damn, I was holding out for Palffy on my next pick. Nik always takes the players I think I can get at later selections.

Velociraptor is offline  
Old
02-16-2012, 11:57 AM
  #260
seventieslord
Moderator
 
seventieslord's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Regina, SK
Country: Canada
Posts: 28,380
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by EagleBelfour View Post
With our tenth selection, the 334th overall in this year All-Time Draft, l'équipe nationale de France est fier de sélectionner, from Montreal, Canada, le versatile ailier droit/centre/troisième gardien de but James Ogilvie 'Odie' Cleghorn



A player who doesn't get nearly the respect he deserves, for his offensive ability or his toughness.

- Stanley Cup (1924)
- Stanley Cup Finalist (1919, 1925)
- NHL goal leader and runner-up in points (1919)
- Placed 3rd, 5th, 5th, 7th, 9th in NHA goal scoring, 4th & 10th in assists
- Placed 1st, 4th, 5th, 8th in NHL goal scoring, 3rd & 10th in assists
- Placed 3rd in playoff goals and points (1919)
- Tied for 29th All-time with Nine top-20 goalscoring seasons (not just in his own league - based on study that assumes consolidation of all top leagues)

[...]

http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/sh...&postcount=342

This is the biography of Odie Cleghorn, by seventies.
I like the pick, but I am not as high on him as I was before. I was too “top-10 obsessed” back in ATD11 and I believe in percentages much more (as I believe we all do now. No one thinks that 5th in 1912 is as good as 5th 50 years later, for example, and percentages typically demonstrate that)

His significant percentages in the NHL: 85, 68, 52, 49. In the NHA: 97, 76, 67, 56, 55, 48.
Total: 97, 85, 76, 68, 67, 56, 55, 52, 49, 48.
(all these numbers are “vs. #1” to reflect the “half leagues” of the time)

The other guy you asked me about: 76, 66, 61, 53, 53, 42, 42. Pretty sure Cleghorn was better, especially when you consider that pre-67 players are inherently a bit lower on percentage scales than we intuitively feel they should be.

Cleghorn is probably the best pre-merger RW you could have taken. Maybe not the best pre-merger winger though.

So, you did very well, even if it’s not as well as some gaudy finishes might lead one to believe.

Quote:
Originally Posted by markrander87 View Post
What a lot of people don't realize is that all of his NHL career took place after the age of 30. He spent what 12-13 years in the OHA sr league and WHL before stepping foot in the NHL.

Are all of the previous season worth nothing?

He has massive longevity and a great peak (1927-32 give or take)
His OHA senior years are almost certainly not just throwaways and they probably do contribute to his resume materially. He played there just at the tail end of the period where we can still take that league seriously – as there were some future NHLers there.

A good case still would have to be made, though. It is a matter of understanding his level of dominance in that league, and the quality of that league. It rests on you. An SIHR membership would probably be pretty useful.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jarek View Post
That's a unique situation where Sprague actually, at the expense of his team, would go to the aid of his brother if he felt he was being pushed around too much. I can't think of any other example in history where two brothers actually put aside the game to defend each other at all costs. I don't think drafting them on the same team is a good idea, for that reason.
I’m surprised that no one mentioned that VCL and I did exactly this in ATD11. It was my most successful team until last year’s – we got to the semis and lost to arrbez. I’m not saying it was a good idea, it may have been a bad idea that we just “got away with”. It could even have been a horrible idea, that we simply overcame by being quality in other areas.

Quote:
Originally Posted by vecens24 View Post
I disagree that the 32 LW is equal to the 32 goalie because you draft LWs for differing purposes. You draft checking LWs, 2 way LWs, scorin left wings, all to fill four spots on your roster. However you draft goalies all for the same purpose, to keep picks out of the net. It's a different concept entirely.
Absolutely.

Quote:
Originally Posted by arrbez View Post
This is very true. By my quick scan, Bun Cook was the 32nd LWer taken, but he's a guy who probably doesn't go that high in a vacuum. It's his intangibles that make him valuable as a "glue guy", which is the case with a lot of LWers actually. If you had to choose a LWer to be the best player on a line built around them, the list would look very different. And the guy in that #32 spot would be a far, far cry from Bobby Hull.

To put it another way, if you had to draft a LWer to use in the same manner that you would use Bobby Hull (the go-to offensive option around whom the line is built), you wouldn't be taking Tikkanen, Cashman, Northcott, etc. These guys are far more valuable in a team concept than they are as individual players.

Even as someone who almost always takes a mid-to-lower end goalie, it would be disingenuous for me to say that the difference between Patrick Roy and Tiny Thompson isn't that big. You can win with a bottom end goalie, just like you can win with a bottom end #1 D or C. But it's something you have to make up for in other ways.
Very well said, r. zebras.

Quote:
Originally Posted by markrander87 View Post

WHAT SEPERATES GEORGE HAINSWORTH FROM BERNIE PARENT?
.
The biggest thing, that I’m surprised no one mentioned, is that Parent was noted in Hart voting as being the MVP of a very powerful team (with what can best be described as a no-name defense as far as ATD value is concerned), whereas when Hainsworth won his Vezinas, two of those three times, defensive defensemen on his own team placed highly in hart voting and he was nowhere to be found in the top-11 for 1927, top-6 for 1928, or top-7 for 1929.

That is the biggest problem with Hainsworth’s resume.

With all that said, Hainsworth actually fell so far that you actually got the BGA, and you gotta understand that this is high praise coming from Hainsworth’s #1 critic dating back to 2008.

I think it’s going to be a tough sell proving he deserves to go higher than a few goalies already taken, but I welcome the effort. As far as values go, getting Hainsworth where you did is probably better value than Worsley and Thompson, at the very least. Put a gun to my head and ask if I’d rather have Thompson at 203, Worsley at 270 or Hainswort in the 330s, I probably pick the latter.

Quote:
Originally Posted by markrander87 View Post
George Hainsworth 1929-30 playoffs was the best ever for a goaltender

Game 1 Quarter finals- Shutout, team wins 1-0
Game 2 Quarter Finals- 3-2 win, triple overtime (3 extra periods of shutout hockey)

Game 1 Semi Finals- 2-1 win, quadruple overtime (4 extra periods of shutout hockey)
Game 2 Semi finals- 2-0 Shutout Win

Game 1 Cup finals- 3-0 Shutout Win
Game 2 Cup finals- 4-3 Cup Win

Let's make sense of all this:

In 5 of the 6 games Hainsworth had at least 3 consecutive shutout periods PER GAME

Now when we factor in all of those overtime periods

Including every game Hainsworth allowed 6 goals in 22 periods

Eliminating the last game of the playoffs Hainsworth allowed 3 goals in 19 periods

* Can somebody calculate the GAA factoring in overtime periods?

I can't see any other goaltending performence topping Hainsworth in those 1930 playoffs.
Sawchuk, 1952.

I know this has all been mentioned already, but when his career is analyzed year by year and his average compared to the other goalies in the playoffs is weighed out, he doesn’t look that special. There is an old post by me floating around somewhere, where I talk about this. (I can’t find it, maybe someone else can?)

Quote:
Originally Posted by markrander87 View Post
This brings us back to the Parent comparion. LF was nice enough to post Parents placements:

From the above we already have a 1 and 2(3/4 of season) top 5 s% for Hainsworth.

So we are left with a 3, 3, 3 s % for Hainsworth out of all of those remaining years?
I know it was already mentioned that the 2nd was incorrect and was only 2nd among drafted goalies. But even if his best 5 seasons for sv% rankings were equal to Parent, I would not call that an equal accomplishment. It was a smaller league with lesser competition. (for example, “5th in wins” in 1960 is not anywhere near “5th in wins” in 1980, for obvious reasons)

Quote:
Originally Posted by BM67 View Post
1930 GAA is actually 1.48 counting OT.

1974 GAA is actually 2.69 counting OT.

1975 GAA is actually 2.91 counting OT.
Seriously? The league’s official stats don’t already reflect this?

If this is true, how has nobody pointed this out before?

Quote:
Originally Posted by jarek View Post
This is why I think you're such a cutey.
Awww, a lover’s quarrel.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyShoe1721 View Post
I'm shocked that it took this long for this point to be brought up. Another thing to consider, who was the Flyers' number 1 defenseman? Jimmy Watson. Where did he get picked in the ATD? 310. And I'm not so sure he deserves to be picked that high. I love Jimmy, he runs the local rink that I played hockey my entire life out of, but I'm not so sure he's even that good. A case could be made for a number of the defensemen on that team for being the "best". Here is a list of teams that were repeat cup champions, their #1 defenseman, and where he was picked in the draft(not counting per-consolidation:

1930 & 1931 Canadiens: Sylvio Mantha(147)
1936 & 1937 Red Wings: Ebbie Goodfellow(126)
1947, 1948 & 1949 Maple Leafs: Gus Mortson/Jimmy Thomson(233, 200 respectively)
1954 & 1955 Red Wings: Red Kelly(18)
1956-1960 Canadiens: Doug Harvey(5)
1962, 1963 & 1964 Maple Leafs: Tim Horton(43)
1965 & 1966 Canadiens: Jacques Laperriere(119)
1968 & 1969 Canadiens: Jacques Laperriere(119)
1974 & 1975 Flyers: Jimmy Watson(310)
1976-1979 Canadiens: Larry Robinson(23)
1980-1983 Islanders: Denis Potvin(10)
1984 & 1985 Oilers: Paul Coffey(33)
1987 & 1988 Oilers: Paul Coffey(33)
1991 & 1992 Penguins: Paul Coffey/Larry Murphy(33 & 139)
1997 & 1998 Red Wings: Nicklas Lidstrom(11)

With the exception of Sylvio Mantha's Canadiens and Potvin's Islanders(although one guy will likely be taken soon, well before he deserves to be and I'll highly criticize that pick when it comes), I believe every other "dynasty" on here(except the Flyers of course) has had other defensemen besides those listed chosen. Baun, Pronovost, Savard, Lapointe, Fetisov, Tremblay, Johnson, and Talbot are just the guys that come to mind that played with these guys. The Flyers will probably have two more defensemen taken in the ATD, likely two 3rd pairing guys. Mantha will have at least one more, Potvin will have at least two more. This Flyers defense was a group of no-names. ON TOP of the fact that the Flyers took obscene amounts of penalties, in the 2 cup years, they were shorthanded 888 times compared to the league average of 552. So basically, for every 100 power plays the Flyers had, they had 161 penalty kills. In the playoffs, they had a combined 913 penalty minutes in those 2 years to their Finals opponents 619(including the "Big Bad Bruins"). Sorry to use 2 different metrics, but that's what's available. Parent was absolutely integral to that team. I also found a tidbit from a seventies bio saying the Flyers were 16% better than average. Why do you think that was? These stars on defense? Clarke certainly helped, but a great deal of credit has to go to Parent here.

Edit: Just realized Mantha's Canadiens and Hainsworth's Canadiens are the same team. Either way, my point still stands that Hainsworth had a better defense in front of him, and was playing in much different situations and circumstances compared to Parent.
Watson was almost certainly the best defenseman on an all-time basis that the Flyers had in that time, but it’s really hard to pick an actual #1 for the cup years. Ice time, for example, doesn’t necessarily say it was conclusively him, or anyone else really.

In the Flyers’ heyday a number of defensemen led the team in TOI, ES TOI, and a number of them got scattered all-star/Norris votes and got into all-star games. And the one who actually peaked the highest didn’t play beyond round 2 of the 1974 playoffs, and is arguably the lowest on the all-time scale as a result. I think the top-5 were often extremely close in overall value. Jimmy Watson going 1st among them is definitely right with hindsight and full careers considered, but I don’t know that it was clear, circa 1974 and 1975.

Quote:
Originally Posted by chaosrevolver View Post
Wait what..I remember a few MLD's ago I said he was a good pick..but never thought he'd go top-400 in the ATD.
.
I tend to agree. Unfortunately, all-star voting for more modern players has become quite important lately, and he’s been overrated by it. I don’t think he’s ever been among the top-4 defensemen in the NHL.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dwight View Post
Gonna finish off the top 6 here by picking..

Dave Taylor, RW
I was waiting for this one. Offensively and overall speaking, there is no doubt that other two-way 80s wingers like Propp and Larmer are better than him.

But – Propp at 214, Larmer at 263, or Taylor in the 340 range? He might be the best value there.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post

I also view the early Retro Selkes (like from before the 1920s) as pretty much worthless - IIRC, at one point they give Moose Johnson Retro Selkes for seasons when he was clearly playing as a defenseman.
I thought it was established that he spent a year at rover and that was when he earned that retro selke. (not to defend retro selkes at all!)

seventieslord is offline  
Old
02-16-2012, 12:04 PM
  #261
seventieslord
Moderator
 
seventieslord's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Regina, SK
Country: Canada
Posts: 28,380
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr Bugg View Post
Kimberley selects LW Vsevolod Bobrov.
'Seve' keeps falling, just not fast enough or far enough...

Quote:
Originally Posted by BenchBrawl View Post
I see Boyle as a defenseman who has a bias toward offense , but capable of playing defense so he's not a PP specialist.
At the ATD level? I'd say he is. If he's not, then who is? Someone has to be.

seventieslord is offline  
Old
02-16-2012, 12:05 PM
  #262
TheDevilMadeMe
Registered User
 
TheDevilMadeMe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Brooklyn
Country: United States
Posts: 45,406
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by seventieslord View Post
'Seve' keeps falling, just not fast enough or far enough...



At the ATD level? I'd say he is. If he's not, then who is? Someone has to be.
I think Boyle is clearly better than the likes of Housley and Gonchar in his own zone.

TheDevilMadeMe is offline  
Old
02-16-2012, 12:18 PM
  #263
BM67
Registered User
 
BM67's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: In "The System"
Country: Canada
Posts: 4,615
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by markrander87 View Post
Why do you think I put "If you want to bring up GAA"

Read my first 25 posts, I never mentioned GAA once until it was brought up by somebody else
Is going going game by game saying how many GA he gave up much different than mentioning his GAA?

BM67 is offline  
Old
02-16-2012, 12:34 PM
  #264
BM67
Registered User
 
BM67's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: In "The System"
Country: Canada
Posts: 4,615
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by seventieslord View Post
Seriously? The league’s official stats don’t already reflect this?

If this is true, how has nobody pointed this out before?
In this case it was just a case of jarek adding up the goals and dividing by games, rather than looking at the goalie stats I think, but yes, I can recall a time when this was true of most old GAA stats.

Of course at the same time we have markrander87 asking what what Hainsworth's 0.75 GAA would be if you included OT. 6 GA in 6 GP = GAA 1.00 not 0.75, so...

BM67 is offline  
Old
02-16-2012, 12:51 PM
  #265
vecens24
Registered User
 
vecens24's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Country: United States
Posts: 5,002
vCash: 500
seventies, can you either shoot me a PM or just post on here (and hopefully a link on more information because some dude is actually named Vsevolod Bobrov as his username on HF so its impossible to search for info ) why you hate Bobrov so.

vecens24 is offline  
Old
02-16-2012, 12:54 PM
  #266
jarek
Registered User
 
jarek's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Posts: 7,273
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by BM67 View Post
In this case it was just a case of jarek adding up the goals and dividing by games, rather than looking at the goalie stats I think, but yes, I can recall a time when this was true of most old GAA stats.

Of course at the same time we have markrander87 asking what what Hainsworth's 0.75 GAA would be if you included OT. 6 GA in 6 GP = GAA 1.00 not 0.75, so...
So that means that his GAA was lowered "artificially" be playing extremely long games. This stats is looking less and less special to me the more digging is done.

jarek is offline  
Old
02-16-2012, 12:55 PM
  #267
Leafs Forever
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Country: Canada
Posts: 2,795
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by vecens24 View Post
seventies, can you either shoot me a PM or just post on here (and hopefully a link on more information because some dude is actually named Vsevolod Bobrov as his username on HF so its impossible to search for info ) why you hate Bobrov so.
-1950s Russian hockey was reallly weak.

-Bobrov, in context of 50s russian hockey, was awful at everything that wasn't offense.

Leafs Forever is offline  
Old
02-16-2012, 12:58 PM
  #268
vecens24
Registered User
 
vecens24's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Country: United States
Posts: 5,002
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Leafs Forever View Post
-1950s Russian hockey was reallly weak.

-Bobrov, in context of 50s russian hockey, was awful at everything that wasn't offense.
Yeah these are things I know (trust me I learned them last year drafting Sologubov. Good luck with that this year LL). I was just wondering more if it ran deeper than that even. Like it seems like if you insulated him and surrounded him correctly (then again I guess we'd need to find out how he played, I assume he was a massive puck hog and puck carrier) he'd be pretty useful in the 350 range...

Like for instance, if you put him with a Milt Schmidt and a RW who doesn't always need the puck, wouldn't selecting him here be fine, putting him on the first line, then building a strong second line be effective? I am fully aware how weak Soviet hockey was, it's just he was pretty damned dominant.

vecens24 is offline  
Old
02-16-2012, 01:05 PM
  #269
JFA87-66-99
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: USA
Country: United States
Posts: 2,581
vCash: 500
The Pittsburgh Bankers select C Marty Walsh


Last edited by JFA87-66-99: 02-16-2012 at 01:57 PM.
JFA87-66-99 is offline  
Old
02-16-2012, 01:10 PM
  #270
Leafs Forever
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Country: Canada
Posts: 2,795
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by vecens24 View Post
Yeah these are things I know (trust me I learned them last year drafting Sologubov. Good luck with that this year LL). I was just wondering more if it ran deeper than that even. Like it seems like if you insulated him and surrounded him correctly (then again I guess we'd need to find out how he played, I assume he was a massive puck hog and puck carrier) he'd be pretty useful in the 350 range...

Like for instance, if you put him with a Milt Schmidt and a RW who doesn't always need the puck, wouldn't selecting him here be fine, putting him on the first line, then building a strong second line be effective? I am fully aware how weak Soviet hockey was, it's just he was pretty damned dominant.
It's just he dominated over scrubs; and, if memory he serves, his Russians didn't really always beat the Canadian amateurs..it was the 60s where the Russians started to dominate all the time.

Sure, you can insulate him fine- it's just his skill level is really questionable, and the fact that you have to kind of build the line around him just makes it worse.

Leafs Forever is offline  
Old
02-16-2012, 01:14 PM
  #271
Sturminator
I voted for Kodos
 
Sturminator's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: West Egg, New York
Country: Ukraine
Posts: 8,423
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
I think his Norris record overrates him a little bit because of the modern bias towards offensive defensemen, but if you want a right handed shot for the powerplay who isn't terrible in his own zone, it's hard to do better than Boyle right now.
"Isn't terrible in his own zone" is really underrating Boyle. He is actually quite good as the mobile end of a defensive tandem. He just needs a partner who can handle the crease-clearing duties, like Douglas Murray. He's not especially good defensively on a 2nd pairing by ATD standards, but I don't think he's below-average, either. He's an excellent hockey player who has raised his game in the playoffs more often than not.

I don't think the Norris voting overrates Boyle. He isn't that good offensively. I can think of some modern offensive defensemen who are overrated by their Norris votes, but Boyle is not one of them. Honestly, I'm not at all sure what seperates him from Gary Suter besides cross-checking people in the face.

Sturminator is offline  
Old
02-16-2012, 01:17 PM
  #272
arrbez
bad chi
 
arrbez's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Toronto
Country: Canada
Posts: 12,872
vCash: 500
Send a message via MSN to arrbez
Quote:
Originally Posted by Leafs Forever View Post
It's just he dominated over scrubs; and, if memory he serves, his Russians didn't really always beat the Canadian amateurs..it was the 60s where the Russians started to dominate all the time.

Sure, you can insulate him fine- it's just his skill level is really questionable, and the fact that you have to kind of build the line around him just makes it worse.
I had him in my first draft, and he's still one of the hardest players for me to get a read on.

Do we have stats for how he did against Canadian amateur teams? I mean, it is possible that he was an NHL-calibre player surrounded by very little talent. If you put a high-end NHL player (Ziggy Palffy to use a recently drafted guy) on an ECHL team, you still wouldn't expect them to beat an AHL team, if that makes any sense.

arrbez is offline  
Old
02-16-2012, 01:19 PM
  #273
arrbez
bad chi
 
arrbez's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Toronto
Country: Canada
Posts: 12,872
vCash: 500
Send a message via MSN to arrbez
Quote:
Originally Posted by BenchBrawl View Post
I would be really curious to know what is a ''distinctive french-canadian feature''
A cigarette?

arrbez is offline  
Old
02-16-2012, 01:20 PM
  #274
Dreakmur
Registered User
 
Dreakmur's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Orillia, Ontario
Country: Canada
Posts: 9,074
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sturminator View Post
Honestly, I'm not at all sure what seperates him from Gary Suter besides cross-checking people in the face.
Got a good laugh out of this.... and not because the comment is off, but because of the crosschecking in the face part.


They are close in my opinion. For me, Suter's physical edge is an advantage that I like. Also, Suter's got a full career under his belt. If Boyle has a few more solid seasons, he'll pass Suter in my mind.

Dreakmur is offline  
Old
02-16-2012, 01:32 PM
  #275
Sturminator
I voted for Kodos
 
Sturminator's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: West Egg, New York
Country: Ukraine
Posts: 8,423
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by seventieslord View Post
At the ATD level? I'd say he is. If he's not, then who is? Someone has to be.
I don't want to be insulting, but how much of Boyle have you actually seen since he "turned the corner" defensively? I know he wasn't considered good defensively in his early years in Tampa, but everything I have seen of him in San Jose has been strong, and it's not like he magically transformed when he put on a Sharks uniform. As I understand it, Boyle was good defensively for at least a couple of years in Tampa before he was traded.

The guy is a good defensive defenseman at even strength when he isn't called upon to play in the crease. He's not "average" or "not a liability", he is good. Boyle is extremely mobile, positions himself well, is tenacious and is a very underrated shot blocker.

"Someone has to be?" seems to suggest that Boyle is among the worst defensive defensemen in the ATD, which is nonsense. Like I said, I don't actually see what seperates him from Gary Suter, and I have seen a lot of Gary Suter.

Sturminator is offline  
Closed Thread

Forum Jump


Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 12:25 AM.

monitoring_string = "e4251c93e2ba248d29da988d93bf5144"

vBulletin Copyright ©2000 - 2016, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
HFBoards.com is a property of CraveOnline Media, LLC, an Evolve Media, LLC company. ©2016 All Rights Reserved.