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ATD 2012 - Draft Thread V

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Old
02-16-2012, 01:45 PM
  #276
arrbez
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sturminator View Post
"Someone has to be?" seems to suggest that Boyle is among the worst defensive defensemen in the ATD, which is nonsense. Like I said, I don't actually see what seperates him from Gary Suter, and I have seen a lot of Gary Suter.
Well, Suter has more size and physicality to his game. And also a little better offensively based on defensive scoring finishes.

Boyle: 4,5,6,9,10, 10* (* currently tied for 10th this season)

Suter: 1,5,6,7,7,7,8


Suter played in an exceptionally deep era for offensive defensemen as well (and tougher all-star competition in general IMO).

So I'd take Suter over Boyle, but Boyle is very nice value at pick 338.

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02-16-2012, 01:53 PM
  #277
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
I think Boyle is clearly better than the likes of Housley and Gonchar in his own zone.
I agree, but that doesn’t say much, either.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BM67 View Post
In this case it was just a case of jarek adding up the goals and dividing by games, rather than looking at the goalie stats I think, but yes, I can recall a time when this was true of most old GAA stats.
Just as long as that is all fixed now. I thought it was.

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Originally Posted by vecens24 View Post
seventies, can you either shoot me a PM or just post on here (and hopefully a link on more information because some dude is actually named Vsevolod Bobrov as his username on HF so its impossible to search for info ) why you hate Bobrov so.
Do an advanced search for posts by me with Bobrov in them. I am sure you can find lots.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jarek View Post
So that means that his GAA was lowered "artificially" be playing extremely long games. This stats is looking less and less special to me the more digging is done.
The games were made longer by he and the opposing goalie making more saves… not sure what your point is.

GAA is always based on “per 60 minutes”, not “per game”.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sturminator View Post
He's not especially good defensively on a 2nd pairing by ATD standards, but I don't think he's below-average, either
.
Once everyone has their top-4 defensemen set, please rank all 128 of them by what you think their defensive ability is. Just putting them in groups of 10 would be fine, really. Their average performance throughout their careers should be considered, too, not just “he’s actually pretty good now”. I find it really hard to believe that Boyle would be in the average range.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sturminator View Post
I don't want to be insulting, but how much of Boyle have you actually seen since he "turned the corner" defensively? I know he wasn't considered good defensively in his early years in Tampa, but everything I have seen of him in San Jose has been strong, and it's not like he magically transformed when he put on a Sharks uniform. As I understand it, Boyle was good defensively for at least a couple of years in Tampa before he was traded.

The guy is a good defensive defenseman at even strength when he isn't called upon to play in the crease. He's not "average" or "not a liability", he is good. Boyle is extremely mobile, positions himself well, is tenacious and is a very underrated shot blocker.

"Someone has to be?" seems to suggest that Boyle is among the worst defensive defensemen in the ATD, which is nonsense. Like I said, I don't actually see what seperates him from Gary Suter, and I have seen a lot of Gary Suter.
I haven’t seen much of Boyle since he “turned the corner” though I make an effort to watch every playoff game. I also admittedly am not the best at picking defensive games apart. I have a good idea of what Boyle’s reputation is though. I realize that at the NHL level he is a bonafide #1 defenseman and not “just” a PP specialist but thrown into this bigger and much more competitive pool, that is probably what he is.

I can’t remember who posted it, but there was a guy, some blogger, I imagine, who watched all the Sharks’ goals against and assigned blame for them and concluded Boyle was not good defensively. This was a year or two ago. I remember finding it pretty compelling. If someone else remembers who posted it, please feel free to dig it up.

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Old
02-16-2012, 02:02 PM
  #278
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sturminator View Post
I don't want to be insulting, but how much of Boyle have you actually seen since he "turned the corner" defensively? I know he wasn't considered good defensively in his early years in Tampa, but everything I have seen of him in San Jose has been strong, and it's not like he magically transformed when he put on a Sharks uniform. As I understand it, Boyle was good defensively for at least a couple of years in Tampa before he was traded.

The guy is a good defensive defenseman at even strength when he isn't called upon to play in the crease. He's not "average" or "not a liability", he is good. Boyle is extremely mobile, positions himself well, is tenacious and is a very underrated shot blocker.

"Someone has to be?" seems to suggest that Boyle is among the worst defensive defensemen in the ATD, which is nonsense. Like I said, I don't actually see what seperates him from Gary Suter, and I have seen a lot of Gary Suter.
This is absolute garbage. Boyle is prone to make bad turnovers and take dumb penalties. To say that he is good defensively is really stomach turning and I've watched him a lot since he played in tampa.

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02-16-2012, 02:07 PM
  #279
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My point is that Hainsworth had games that went much longer than the average game would typically go. To go from 1.00 to 0.75 over 6 games says that he played in a TON of overtimes, exactly one overtime on average per game. This just seems like a lot, I can't recall any playoff series in recent memory that had that much overtime play.

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02-16-2012, 02:09 PM
  #280
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Garnish selects Left Winger Vincent Damphousse



Some stats on Damphousse:

-1205 career points (44th All Time)
-3 Time All Star
-4 90 Point Seasons and 7 50 Assist Seasons
-Led Montreal in scoring in 1993 playoffs with 23 points

For more on Damphousse click the following link:

http://www.legendsofhockey.net/Legen...p?player=10335

I've pmed the next picker.

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02-16-2012, 02:19 PM
  #281
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tony d View Post
Garnish selects Left Winger Vincent Damphousse



Some stats on Damphousse:

-1205 career points (44th All Time)
-3 Time All Star
-4 90 Point Seasons and 7 50 Assist Seasons
-Led Montreal in scoring in 1993 playoffs with 23 points

For more on Damphousse click the following link:

http://www.legendsofhockey.net/Legen...p?player=10335

I've pmed the next picker.
Allow me to express towards you my sincere hatred of your latest draft pick.

Scooped! It was between him and two others for me next pick.

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Old
02-16-2012, 02:26 PM
  #282
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Quote:
Originally Posted by seventieslord View Post
Once everyone has their top-4 defensemen set, please rank all 128 of them by what you think their defensive ability is. Just putting them in groups of 10 would be fine, really. Their average performance throughout their careers should be considered, too, not just “he’s actually pretty good now”. I find it really hard to believe that Boyle would be in the average range.
How about you sit and spin?

Quote:
I haven’t seen much of Boyle since he “turned the corner” though I make an effort to watch every playoff game. I also admittedly am not the best at picking defensive games apart. I have a good idea of what Boyle’s reputation is though. I realize that at the NHL level he is a bonafide #1 defenseman and not “just” a PP specialist but thrown into this bigger and much more competitive pool, that is probably what he is.
If you have watched the playoff games, then you should know that Boyle has been consistently the best Shark (or player) on the ice in the playoffs. Boyle is a very good even strength defenseman. I don't know what his defensive reputation is outside of San Jose. Maybe people think he sucks defensively because he doesn't do much penalty killing? But to suggest that he is a poor even strength player or one of the worst defensive defensemen in the ATD is simply uninformed. Among 2nd pairing offensive D, Boyle is easily better than Gonchar and Housley defensively, and I've little doubt he is better than Hollett, Svedberg, Pratt and Egan...and that's just the guys who have already been drafted. Once we get into 3rd pairing guys, there will be many more. If you want 2nd pairing comparables beyond Suter, Boyle is on about the same level as Rafalski and Carlyle, yet nobody calls them powerplay specialists. There will be many worse defensive defensemen drafted in this thing when all is said and done.

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02-16-2012, 02:27 PM
  #283
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i thought about picking damphousse, but i figured i could get him later. doesn't have a high peak, but was a good player for a long time, played C and LW and was responsible defensively.



Quote:
Originally Posted by seventieslord View Post
I can’t remember who posted it, but there was a guy, some blogger, I imagine, who watched all the Sharks’ goals against and assigned blame for them and concluded Boyle was not good defensively. This was a year or two ago. I remember finding it pretty compelling. If someone else remembers who posted it, please feel free to dig it up.
overpass

http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/sh...&postcount=515


i don't think boyle is very good defensively, and not just b/c he cannot handle big F's. i would put his D between gonchar's and zubov's. i rarely saw boyle in TB.

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Old
02-16-2012, 02:32 PM
  #284
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hobnobs View Post
This is absolute garbage. Boyle is prone to make bad turnovers and take dumb penalties. To say that he is good defensively is really stomach turning and I've watched him a lot since he played in tampa.
Yeah, he takes tons of dumb penalties. He has taken a little more than one penalty every three games throughout his career, which is an extremely low rate for a defenseman. Got any more insights for us?

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02-16-2012, 02:33 PM
  #285
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Originally Posted by seventieslord View Post
'Seve' keeps falling, just not fast enough or far enough...



At the ATD level? I'd say he is. If he's not, then who is? Someone has to be.
Boyle is capable of playing good EV minutes , helping the transition and offense while not being a enormous risk in his own end , every player will have their weaknesses and when you look at all the dman being drafted around here , I don't see how Boyle didn't have a better career than some of them already.

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02-16-2012, 02:37 PM
  #286
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sturminator View Post
Yeah, he takes tons of dumb penalties. He has taken a little more than one penalty every three games throughout his career, which is an extremely low rate for a defenseman. Got any more insights for us?
So more PIMs=more dumb penalties? No sorry, you suffer from flawed logic. That means you think that the Rocket Richard Trophy winner is also the GWG leader.

He's 14th amongst defensemen in PIMs btw. Got anymore insights for us?

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Old
02-16-2012, 02:40 PM
  #287
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Originally Posted by Hobnobs View Post
So more PIMs=more dumb penalties? No sorry, you suffer from flawed logic. That means you think that the Rocket Richard Trophy winner is also the GWG leader.

He's 14th amongst defensemen in PIMs btw. Got anymore insights for us?
A defenceman with a career high of 70 penalty minutes isn't taking "tons" of any kind of penalty..

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02-16-2012, 02:46 PM
  #288
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nik jr View Post
http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/sh...&postcount=515

i don't think boyle is very good defensively, and not just b/c he cannot handle big F's. i would put his D between gonchar's and zubov's. i rarely saw boyle in TB.
Lord. That guy's blog post is brutal. There is almost no substance to it, and is he seriously making an evaluation of defensive players' performance based on goal clips at NHL.com?! That seems to be the case. Look at the goal video he posted where Boyle gets "completely embarrassed". Boyle doesn't make the best play of his life, but the forward gets off a weak backhand shot and the goalie simply gets beaten...badly.

That is a hack job.

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02-16-2012, 02:49 PM
  #289
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Originally Posted by jarek View Post
My point is that Hainsworth had games that went much longer than the average game would typically go. To go from 1.00 to 0.75 over 6 games says that he played in a TON of overtimes, exactly one overtime on average per game. This just seems like a lot, I can't recall any playoff series in recent memory that had that much overtime play.
My opinion is that you don’t have a point here. They didn’t sit there with the puck at center ice, having a smoke, padding their respective goaltenders’ goals against averages…. They played hockey. there is nothing invalid or asterisk-worthy about the GAA of a goalie who played a lot of OT.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sturminator View Post
How about you sit and spin?
Wheeeeeeee!

Ok, I’m just going to grab the first 20 names I see on 2nd pairings on the roster thread. Which of these does Boyle have a better defensive resume than?

Hod Stuart, Jack Crawford, Gus Mortson, Rob Blake, Cy Wentworth, Kevin Lowe, Ken Reardon, Hap Day, Bert Corbeau, Tom Johnson, Georges Boucher, Jimmy Watson, Moose Vasko, Frank Patrick, Gary Suter, Herb Gardiner, Doug Mohns, Randy Carlyle, Jean-Guy Talbot, Mike Grant

It’s really difficult to imagine Boyle approaching the middle of that list.

Quote:
Among 2nd pairing offensive D, Boyle is easily better than Gonchar and Housley defensively, and I've little doubt he is better than Hollett, Svedberg, Pratt and Egan...and that's just the guys who have already been drafted.
That is a few, yes, but there will be 64 2nd pairing defensemen. Will you be able to name close to 30? Let’s be realistic.

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02-16-2012, 02:50 PM
  #290
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No, but as the games progressed, fatigue likely set in and the shots were likely getting less and less dangerous. I have no proof, obviously, but that's how I feel about it.

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02-16-2012, 02:53 PM
  #291
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I don't know , I think some people aren't fair to Boyle , I always liked this player because I always liked him in interviews so I followed his career closely and I still think he is under-appreciated for all he has done.He is a very clutch player with good leadership and not as bad defensively as some would like to believe , but of course I drafted him to bring offense on my 2nd pairing while still being able to play decent defense.Boyle was a legit n1 for some years now , and the same can't be said about a couple of D already drafted and that will be drafted shortly.

He also has good Norris voting and two 2nd places finishes in all-star team , now that the era advantage offensive defensemen doesn't take everything away from him since he's not a specialist in the current NHL but a true n1 on strong teams.Boyle resume speaks for itself , even if offensive defenseman has an advantage in this era , this is no doubting Boyle was often one of the best dman in the league , he was never the best , but he was consistantly in the upper tier of good n1 and sometimes one of the best.This has to count for something.

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02-16-2012, 02:54 PM
  #292
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Originally Posted by jarek View Post
No, but as the games progressed, fatigue likely set in and the shots were likely getting less and less dangerous. I have no proof, obviously, but that's how I feel about it.
Wouldn't the goaltender also be affected by fatigue and become more likely to make a mistake?

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02-16-2012, 02:56 PM
  #293
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hedberg View Post
Wouldn't the goaltender also be affected by fatigue and become more likely to make a mistake?
It would be an interesting study to see how shots, scoring chances, etc are affected by playing into the 1st, 2nd, 3rd, overtime period. The ratio of shots-vs-scoring chances would be particularly interesting, although scoring chances is a pretty ambiguous stat to track.


Last edited by arrbez: 02-16-2012 at 03:02 PM.
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02-16-2012, 02:56 PM
  #294
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Originally Posted by seventieslord View Post
My opinion is that you don’t have a point here. They didn’t sit there with the puck at center ice, having a smoke, padding their respective goaltenders’ goals against averages…. They played hockey. there is nothing invalid or asterisk-worthy about the GAA of a goalie who played a lot of OT.



Wheeeeeeee!

Ok, I’m just going to grab the first 20 names I see on 2nd pairings on the roster thread. Which of these does Boyle have a better defensive resume than?

Hod Stuart, Jack Crawford, Gus Mortson, Rob Blake, Cy Wentworth, Kevin Lowe, Ken Reardon, Hap Day, Bert Corbeau, Tom Johnson, Georges Boucher, Jimmy Watson, Moose Vasko, Frank Patrick, Gary Suter, Herb Gardiner, Doug Mohns, Randy Carlyle, Jean-Guy Talbot, Mike Grant

It’s really difficult to imagine Boyle approaching the middle of that list.



That is a few, yes, but there will be 64 2nd pairing defensemen. Will you be able to name close to 30? Let’s be realistic.
yeah but seventieslord , you are talking like I drafted Boyle for his stellar defensive play , whatever defense some of these guys has on Boyle , Boyle has the offense on a lot of them.You also have to take into account where I picked him versus the real differance between these guys , considering offense and defense.I just don't see how Boyle is a bad pick.I am not trying to sell Boyle as a great defensive defenseman , but he's not a complete hole on the blue line either.

I mean really , yeah , I would take Rob Blake ahead of Dan Boyle , shocking I know.

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02-16-2012, 03:02 PM
  #295
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Originally Posted by BenchBrawl View Post
yeah but seventieslord , you are talking like I drafted Boyle for his stellar defensive play , whatever defense some of these guys has on Boyle , Boyle has the offense on a lot of them.You also have to take into account where I picked him versus the real differance between these guys , considering offense and defense.I just don't see how Boyle is a bad pick.I am not trying to sell Boyle as a great defensive defenseman , but he's not a complete hole on the blue line either.

I mean really , yeah , I would take Rob Blake ahead of Dan Boyle , shocking I know.
I'm not trying to pan your pick, let's just be realistic about what he's here for and where his various skills fit into the grand scheme.

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02-16-2012, 03:04 PM
  #296
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Originally Posted by seventieslord View Post
I'm not trying to pan your pick, let's just be realistic about what he's here for and where his various skills fit into the grand scheme.
I don't think it's unrealistic to think that Boyle can play decent 2nd pairing EV minutes , with a clear bias toward offense but without being a liability in his own end. (and play on the first PP wave)

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02-16-2012, 03:06 PM
  #297
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BenchBrawl View Post
I don't think it's unrealistic to think that Boyle can play decent 2nd pairing EV minutes , with a clear bias toward offense but without being a liability in his own end.
I think a lot depends on who you get to play with him too. It's tough to rate his effectiveness as a second-pairing guy without knowing who his partner will be.

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02-16-2012, 03:08 PM
  #298
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Wouldn't the goaltender also be affected by fatigue and become more likely to make a mistake?
Affected, yes, but not by the same amount everyone else is. For starters, most players played the entire game back then (I think), and while they had to skate around and stuff, the goalie just stood there and made the saves. The goalies also didn't have to wear 300 pound body armor like they do these days, so theoretically at least, I feel like the goalies likely didn't get fatigued as much as the other players. It may have been a reason, along with no forward passing, why goal scoring was so low back then.

If anything, the goalies will make a mistake more because they get bored and lose focus before they make a mistake due to fatigue.

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02-16-2012, 03:09 PM
  #299
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Originally Posted by seventieslord View Post
Wheeeeeeee!
Jesus...are you really this arrogant? Let me put it this way: among 2nd pairing offensive defensemen, Boyle is about average defensively. He is a perfectly acceptable defensive player in his role. You compare him mostly to defensive defensemen as if that is at all relevant.

To take a totally random example of two players I have seen, Dan Boyle is a better defenseman than Jimmy Watson ever was, but looking only at defense, sure, Watson was better. Not that it means anything. Calling Boyle a powerplay specialist or a defensive liability is simply uninformed.

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02-16-2012, 03:09 PM
  #300
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No, but as the games progressed, fatigue likely set in and the shots were likely getting less and less dangerous. I have no proof, obviously, but that's how I feel about it.


Quote:
Originally Posted by arrbez View Post
It would be an interesting study to see how shots, scoring chances, etc are affected by playing into the 1st, 2nd, 3rd, overtime period. The ratio of shots-vs-scoring chances would be particularly interesting, although scoring chances is a pretty ambiguous stat to track.

It really is amazing the things these guys try and come up with to disprove my players. I see Hedberg already touched on it, but how can you possibly use a goaltender playing countless scoreless Overtimes periods as a negative against him.


Beyond laughable


EDIT:

We cant leave out this Gem.....

Quote:
Originally posted by BW

Affected, yes, but not by the same amount everyone else is. For starters, most players played the entire game back then (I think), and while they had to skate around and stuff, the goalie just stood there and made the saves. The goalies also didn't have to wear 300 pound body armor like they do these days, so theoretically at least, I feel like the goalies likely didn't get fatigued as much as the other players. It may have been a reason, along with no forward passing, why goal scoring was so low back then.

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