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ATD 2012 - Draft Thread V

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Old
02-17-2012, 07:42 PM
  #401
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Originally Posted by monster_bertuzzi View Post
We need to put the draft on hiatis for deadline day. For god sake if Hal Gill causes a crash like that what will deadline day do.
I'd actually have no issue with putting the clock on hiatus during deadline day.

I think its actually a good idea, especially since the clock might be to 6 hours by then.

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02-17-2012, 07:59 PM
  #402
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Completed Joe Nieuwendyk bio:

http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/sh...1&postcount=96

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02-17-2012, 08:30 PM
  #403
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nalyd Psycho View Post
Oatman does look like a better offensive talent than Dunderdale...

But he clearly was not one of the PCHA's elite talents.

Edit: I only see 6 All-star teams he's on... But I maybe don't have a definitive list. Is there one?

Are we looking at the same stats? I don't see Oatman as particularly close to Dunderdale based on what I've seen.

Edit: does the assists normalization make that much of a difference?

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02-17-2012, 09:11 PM
  #404
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This is the study seventies is talking about:

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02-17-2012, 09:57 PM
  #405
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I'm happy Modo hasn't picked yet. Tried to send a list between 5:30-to-7:00PMET, couldn't do it.

I'll make my selection around 12:30-to-1:00ET. I'm guessing at this point Modo would have pick or he would of been skipped. I will have made my final decision by then (although I'm 99% sure who I want)

PS#1: Odie Cleghorn played some great season, alongside Gord Roberts and another HHOF at centre. He definitely should have dual position on our list, for future reference.

PS#2: Why do I have a 3 hours clock deduction? I know I lost 1 hour because I traded OTC, and I missed another clock by 3 minutes (Paul Thompson pick), which everyone agreed I shouldn't lose deduction. Although not a big deal, I find a five hour clock, considering my schedule, a bit difficult to manage with!

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02-17-2012, 09:58 PM
  #406
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Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
I don't think there is any better coach than Shero right now, but I think there are a few others on the same level. Shero was a great coach, an innovator, a guy who made his teams more than the sum of their parts. But he just didn't do it for as long as other coaches and didn't repeat his success elsewhere like some other guys, right?
True, though IIRC he started suffering from cancer in the early 80s, and he did bring the Rangers to the cup finals once, where they were beat by one of the Habs dynasty teams. He only was in New York for just over 2 seasons. His teams also never lost in the first round of the playoffs, that's a pretty notable accomplishment in itself.

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02-17-2012, 10:16 PM
  #407
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Originally Posted by EagleBelfour View Post
I'm happy Modo hasn't picked yet. Tried to send a list between 5:30-to-7:00PMET, couldn't do it.

I'll make my selection around 12:30-to-1:00ET. I'm guessing at this point Modo would have pick or he would of been skipped. I will have made my final decision by then (although I'm 99% sure who I want)

PS#1: Odie Cleghorn played some great season, alongside Gord Roberts and another HHOF at centre. He definitely should have dual position on our list, for future reference.

PS#2: Why do I have a 3 hours clock deduction? I know I lost 1 hour because I traded OTC, and I missed another clock by 3 minutes (Paul Thompson pick), which everyone agreed I shouldn't lose deduction. Although not a big deal, I find a five hour clock, considering my schedule, a bit difficult to manage with!
I'll get around to fixing the Odie Cleghorn thing, though I can't see anyone possibly wanting to use him at C with his skill set.

As for the deduction, I don't know. According to the threads, you were at -1 after the third thread, -2 after the fourth thread, now -3.

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02-17-2012, 10:25 PM
  #408
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Dawson City selects "Badger" Bob Johnson, Coach.

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02-17-2012, 11:39 PM
  #409
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Eddie Oatman career rankings and percentage of leader vs league

YearLeagueG RankG %A RankA %Pts RankPts %PIM RankPIM %
1910-11NHAT2025.7%NANAT2025.7%T665.9%
1911-12NHA757.1%NANA757.1%1018.2%
1912-13PCHA1037.5%T662.5%T848.3%373.0%
1913-14PCHA391.7%T933.3%T469.2%T734.6%
1914-15PCHAT466.7%T438.1%T366.7%744.2%
1915-16PCHA1247.8%T376.9%T660.0%T1333.3%
1916-17NHAT741.5%T855.6%945.8%3222.5%
1917-18PCHAT734.4%383.3%448.8%1514.0%
1918-19PCHAT547.8%T938.5%844.4%632.5%
1919-20PCHAT642.3%1100.0%T372.7%T831.6%
1920-21PCHAT1423.1%T564.7%1153.1%1518.3%
1921-22PCHA1034.6%T650.0%850.0%1055.0%
1922-23PCHAT1130.8%943.8%1234.5%758.8%
1923-24WCHL2911.5%T317.1%T3010.0%1240.7%
1924-25WCHLT3822.2%T2138.5%T3332.4%T3120.5%
1925-26WHLT540.0%T530.0%T580.0%T3411.9%


Eddie Oatman career rankings and percentage of leader vs team

YearLeagueG RankG %A RankA %Pts RankPts %PIM RankPIM %
1910-11NHAT464.3%NANAT464.3%1100.0%
1911-12NHA295.2%NANA295.2%266.7%
1912-13PCHA381.8%1100.0%T1100.0%1100.0%
1913-14PCHA1100.0%T383.3%T1100.0%T234.6%
1914-15PCHAT1100.0%T1100.0%1100.0%453.5%
1915-16PCHA352.4%1100.0%272.4%433.3%
1916-17NHA1100.0%1100.0%1100.0%355.6%
1917-18PCHA478.6%1100.0%1100.0%314.0%
1918-19PCHA1100.0%1100.0%1100.0%241.9%
1919-20PCHA242.3%1100.0%272.7%T531.6%
1920-21PCHA630.0%T291.7%353.1%742.3%
1921-22PCHA360.0%T260.0%360.0%455.0%
1922-23PCHAT330.8%443.8%434.5%276.9%
1923-24WCHL913.6%T88.3%911.8%440.7%
1924-25WCHLT730.0%538.5%733.3%T627.8%
1925-26WHLT100.0%T100.0%T100.0%718.4%

Note that some years Oatman's team had far fewer assists than the other teams in the PCHA.
The 228th only played part of the season in 1916-17, so Oatman does not rank as high vs the league as he would have if he played a full season.
Oatman's most famous multi-season teammates are probably Joe Malone and Tommy Dunderdale.

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02-18-2012, 12:07 AM
  #410
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Wow.. Oatman was basically his team's best playmaker by a mile.

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02-18-2012, 12:22 AM
  #411
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Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
I'll get around to fixing the Odie Cleghorn thing, though I can't see anyone possibly wanting to use him at C with his skill set.

As for the deduction, I don't know. According to the threads, you were at -1 after the third thread, -2 after the fourth thread, now -3.
- Obviously, most will like him as a RW, but it's for the good knowledge of the community that I would like this to change. I'm also thinking about putting Cleghorn centre on my first PP, ending up with:

Frank Mahovlich - Odie Cleghorn - Sidney Crosby
Didier Pitre - Jan Suchy

Cleghorn in front of the net, Crosby the playmaker, Mahovlich with the shot and vision, Pitre with the powerful shot (and played a lot of D, so not a liability defensively) and Suchy with the precise wrister.

- Not a big deal, I just don't understand why I have a three hours clock. I guess I could live with it.

---

So, obviously I'm here to make my selection. I would like to do a little writeup before announcing my selection, but if the GM after me is around, or is anyone have that GM list, PM me or write it down in this thread, and I will pick right away.

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02-18-2012, 12:36 AM
  #412
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I hope Crosby is taking those faceoffs. He's a top-5 NHL faceoff man.

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02-18-2012, 12:41 AM
  #413
EagleBelfour
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Originally Posted by jarek View Post
I hope Crosby is taking those faceoffs. He's a top-5 NHL faceoff man.
I thought he became a Top-5 NHL faceoff man only in his last two seasons. I'm sure overall we can't value him as an elite faceoff player at this level, but considering we know nothing about Cleghorn's circle abilities, and that Crosby his at the very least above average, yes, I will want Crosby to take those faceoff.

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02-18-2012, 01:23 AM
  #414
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He's actually been over 50% since 07-08.. and he started to be quite amazing at it in 09-10. He's better than Cleghorn at faceoffs, at any rate.

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02-18-2012, 01:40 AM
  #415
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Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
Are we looking at the same stats? I don't see Oatman as particularly close to Dunderdale based on what I've seen.

Edit: does the assists normalization make that much of a difference?
He has a slightly better ppg, and twice as many assists, and so that slightly better ppg would become better enough to say Oatman's better. Dunderdale seems like a bit of a compiler to me. Oatman's Eastern years counter the Dunderdale played longer at a high level claim.

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02-18-2012, 01:52 AM
  #416
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Originally Posted by Nalyd Psycho View Post
He has a slightly better ppg, and twice as many assists, and so that slightly better ppg would become better enough to say Oatman's better. Dunderdale seems like a bit of a compiler to me. Oatman's Eastern years counter the Dunderdale played longer at a high level claim.
Another interesting study would be to see Dunderdale's goal scoring with and without Oatman. It would be very telling if his goal scoring went down without Oatman.

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02-18-2012, 02:05 AM
  #417
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Wow.. Oatman was basically his team's best playmaker by a mile.
On teams that weren't particularly good offensively, iirc.

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02-18-2012, 02:06 AM
  #418
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On teams that weren't particularly good offensively, iirc.
Not necessarily his fault.

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02-18-2012, 02:10 AM
  #419
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Not necessarily his fault.
In the era when the skaters were out there basically the whole game, it's a lot easier to draw the line from team to individual performance.

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02-18-2012, 02:40 AM
  #420
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With our 11th selection, the 371st overall, and rounding up our Top six, l'équipe nationale de France est fier de sélectionner, from Kladno, Czech Republic, le joueur de centre Milan Nový




Height: 5'10''
Weight: 196 lbs
Position: Center
Shoots: Left
Date of Birth: September 23rd, 1951
Place of Birth: Kladno, Czech Republic, Czechoslovakia


Czechoslovakian League [1970-to-1982]

Top-10 Scoring (1st, 1st, 1st, 1st, 1st, 2nd, 2nd, 2nd, 2nd, 3rd, 9th)
Top-10 Goalscoring (1st, 1st, 1st, 2nd, 2nd, 2nd, 2nd, 2nd, 3rd, 3rd, 9th)
Top-10 Assist (1st, 1st, 1st, 2nd, 2nd, 2nd, 5th, 6th, 9th, 9th)

Top-10 Czech Golden Stick (1st, 2nd, 3rd, 4th, 4th, 8th)
Canada Cup All-Star Team (1976)

Playoff Results: 107GP, 113PTS

In the NHL: 1 season - 73GP, 48PTS


What Kings of the Ice has to say on Milan Novy:
- Greatest Czech gunner: ''On a domestic or even a world scale, there has probably never been a better center.''
- Style of play was not catching attention
- Very tough forward and efficient
- Great positionning
- Very quick shot, not missing many opportunities, could score from any angles with any kind of shot
- Great stamina, didn't miss a game in eight seasons in his prime
- Great skater


Vladimir Martinec, Vaclav Nedomanaky & Milan Novy comparision:

- It's a summary of the seasons they played all together in the same league. I will do a far more complete overview when writing my complete biography

- I am NOT trying to say that Novy is equal or superior to Nedomansky and Martinec, but to bring a discussion as to how well or bad he compares to these great players

- All three played in the same league in the Czech league from the 1970-71 season to the 1973-74 season (4 total)

Vladimir Martinec: 21 years old to 25 years old - 4th season in the league +
Vaclav Nedomansky: 26 years old to 30 years old - 9th season in the league +
Milan Novy: 19 years old to 23 years old - 1st season in the league +

1970-71 season:
Vladimir Martinec: 21 years old: 6th in scoring, 8th in goals, 4th in assists
Vaclav Nedomansky: 26 years old: 2nd in scoring, 2nd in goals, 9th in assists
Milan Novy: 19 years old: 13th in scoring, 13th in goals, 9th in assists

1971-72 season:
Vladimir Martinec: 22 years old: 3rd in scoring, 4th in goals, 5th in assists
Vaclav Nedomansky: 27 years old: 1st in scoring, 1st in goals, 4th in assists
Milan Novy: 20 years old: 9th in scoring, 9th in scoring, 11th in assists

1972-73 season:
Vladimir Martinec: 23 years old: 1st in scoring, 3rd in goals, 1st in assists
Vaclav Nedomansky: 28 years old: 5th in scoring, 8th in goals, 4th in assists
Milan Novy: 21 years old: 3rd in scoring, 2nd in goals, 11th in assists

1973-74 season:
Vladimir Martinec: 24 years old: 4th in scoring, 3rd in goals, 6th in assists
Vaclav Nedomansky: 29 years old: 1st in scoring, 1st in goals, 1st in assists
Milan Novy: 22 years old: 2nd in scoring, 2nd in goals, 2nd in assists

-------------------------

Career results in the Czechoslovakian league:


Vladimir Martinec: [1967-1981]
Top-5 Scoring (1st, 2nd, 2nd, 3rd, 4th, 5th)
Top-5 Goalscoring (1st, 3rd, 3rd, 4th, 4th)
Top-5 Assist (1st, 1st, 5th, 5th)

Top-5 Czech Hockey Stick (1st, 1st, 1st, 1st, 3th, 4th, 5th)

WEC Best Forward (1976)
WEC All-Star (1974, 1975, 1976, 1977)

Vaclav Nedomansky: [1964-1974]
Top-5 Scoring (1st, 1st, 1st, 2nd, 2nd, 3rd, 3rd, 5th, 5th)
Top-5 Goalscoring (1st, 1st, 1st, 2nd, 2nd, 2nd, 2nd, 3rd, 4th)
Top-5 Assist (2nd, 5th)

Top-5 Czech Hockey Stick (3rd, 3rd, 4th, 5th)

WEC Best Forward (1974)
WEC All-Star (1969, 1970, 1974)

Milan Novy: [1970-to-1982]
Top-5 Scoring (1st, 1st, 1st, 1st, 1st, 2nd, 2nd, 2nd, 2nd, 3rd)
Top-5 Goalscoring (1st, 1st, 1st, 2nd, 2nd, 2nd, 2nd, 2nd, 3rd, 3rd)
Top-5 Assist (1st, 1st, 1st, 2nd, 2nd, 2nd, 5th)

Top-5 Czech Hockey Stick (1st, 2nd, 3rd, 4th, 4th)

Canada Cup All-Star Team (1976)


Conclusion:

Now, I am not that biased or foolish enough to call those players out on those statistics alone. We have to put those stats into context, while also giving credit to things I havn't heavily research yet.

All three: Incredible offensive machine, but Nedomansky was renown as someone who never backcheck in Czech, while I found nothing on Novy in the defensive zone. Martinec also was an all offensive guy. Tell me if I'm wrong, but none of them bring intangible worth a big plus in the positive column. Actually, Novy was probably the toughess, and he was someone know as resilient who could take care of himself, but nothing more.

Vladimir Martinec: The first contradiction arise in between the scoring results of Martinec and his placement in the Golden Stick. By a wide margin, Martinec has provide the less spectacular results in the Czech league, compare to both Novy and Nedomansky. So why as he placed that high in the Golden Stick voting? An obvious and a perhaps less unanimous conclusion arise in my opinion. First of all, the obvious conclusion: Martinec was incredible in the World Championship and in the Olympics. In his prime, he was name on the All-Star team four straight years, while winning best forward in 1974. Those performances do count when voting for the best Czech player award (unlike the Hart Trophy, where only the regular season count). He was a clutch player for his national team (even though his overall statistics arn't earth shattering compare to the other two, look at the bottom of my conclusion). The second conclusion, perhaps that will be less openly received, his the fact that Martinec was an extremely flashy and love hockey player. Martinec was the poster boy for his nation, and I think it did play a role in his award recognition. Obviously, the first reason far exceed the importance of the second reason, but you will see where I'm going with this conclusion with Nedomansky and Novy.

Vaclav Nedomansky: An amazing goalscorer, my opinion the best of the three. However, as you can see, I believe Novy was really close to him in term of scoring goals. In term of overall offence, all three are actually pretty close together, all thing consider. Martinec > Nedomansky >> Novy on the international stage, but Novy = Nedomansky > Martinec in the Czech league (look at Novy conclusion for the explanation). In 1972 and 1974, Nedomansky finished 1st in scoring in the Czech league. Golden stick result: 4th and 5th. Even though he was an incredible offensive machine, with great success in the local and international stages. However, he never received a golden stick, or even a very serious nomination, even at his best. Why? It's difficult to comprehend, but I return again to my second conclusion in the Martinec bio: Nedomansky always been a loner on and off the ice. Never the one to talk loudly. I may be stretching the reality, and I hate to give too much credit to a guy feeling, but I really can't figure out those Golden Stick results in a way that statistics would prove them completely correct.

Another thing is to give credit for his career outside Czechoslovakia:

WHA Scoring: 12th, 18th, 3Xst
NHL Scoring: 3Xst, 3Xst
WHA Most Gentlemanly Player (1976)

Just how much does those results affect positively Nedomansky overall career? It sure is a positive, and showed that he could adapt to the NA style of hockey. However, he didn't set the WHA or the NHL on fire. It's a small plus, but his legend lays in his country.

Milan Novy: Surprisingly (well, I was surprise!), Novy did incredibly well in the Czech league. Statistics alone without analyzing them would give Novy the edge over Nedomansky and the greater edge over Martinec. However, I feel I need to give Nedomansky some credit to get all those results during the shorter period of the two. However, Novy was incredible all the way to his last few season in the Czech league. 1980: 2nd in scoring over the Stastny, Martinec and at least five players that will be selected. 1981: 1st in scoring over Martinec, and at least 3 players that's going to get picked. 1982: 1st in scoring over four players that will be selected. Was the mid-to-late 1960's (where Nedomansky got a part of his great results) superior in term of elite players, than the early 1980's? I think the forward corp are about equal, but both Pospisil and Suchy were there. Overall, perhaps I slightly prefer Nedomansky to Novy in the Czech league, but it is VERY close. Another think to add: with those results, his Golden Stick results are kinda underwhelming ... but Novy was known to have a style of play that was not catching attention ... I'm just saying!

Internationally, Novy is behind both Martinec and Nedomansky, and didn't received the awards both of them got. However, Novy was still a very important part of those teams and his offensive results are not far behind when compare to both of them:

WEC & Olympics:
Martinec: 134GP, 124PTS (0.925PPG)
Nedomansky: 124GP, 142PTS (1.145GGP)
Novy: 105GP, 113PTS (1.076GGP)


----

THE BIGGER CONCLUSION

At the end, I believe Nedomansky and Martinec are extremely close together, but giving a small edge to Nedomansky. While Martinec received better awards on the international stage, Nedomansky isn't far behind. Nedomansky czech league results, adding his results on the North American soil, give him the edge over Martinec. In my book, Novy is the third player on this list, mostly because he didn't receive that much awards on the international stage. However, Novy was definitely just as offensively talented as those two.

Vaclav Nedomansky: 171st overall
Vladimir Martinec: 197th overall
Milan Novy: 371st overall

I think I've proved clearly that Novy shouldn't be taken 200 picks after Nedomansky and 180 pick after Martinec. I actually prove that the difference isn't even close to be those numbers. I think Novy one of the better value of the draft, and an invaluable part of my team. Milan Novy should be taken at the very least a few rounds earlier.








If you read all of this, I give you Internet credits!

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02-18-2012, 03:05 AM
  #421
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I didn't want to make this pick. I was really hoping someone else would take my research from last year and step it up. But it hasn't happened, and I can't take a defenceman and pass on a guy who is far and away the best available, and has been for quite some time.

The Minnesota Fighting Saints are pleased to select 372nd overall, from Sault Ste. Marie, Ontario, a war hero and one of only three defencemen to every lead a major pro league in scoring (Bobby Orr and Jan Suchy being the other two) Art Duncan, D.

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02-18-2012, 03:26 AM
  #422
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I read it all, and I have a couple of comments:

1) Vaclav Nedomansky is overrated here. This is basically an artifact from pappyline's time in the ATD, and I think many GMs who have been paying attention are aware of this by now. Nedomansky doesn't bring any intangibles besides size, and his offensive credentials, alone, are not enough to justify his draft position, IMO. He should go behind Martinec.

2) Vladimir Martinec played for a weak Pardubice team in the Czech domestic league, while Novy played for Kladno during his prime, which was the Czech equivalent of CSKA Moscow. We have to keep that in mind when looking at the scoring totals.

3) Novy's Golden Sticks in 1981 and 1982 were won against a depleted league. I think it's unlikely he wins either of those awards if Peter Stastny stays in Europe.

The comparison of these three players here ultimately looks very similar to a comparison between Petrov, Yakushev and Maltsev, and as it is for the Russians, I think there is good justification for Martinec's status being well above the others. But I agree with you that Nedomansky and Novy should be closer, probably by one falling and the other rising. Novy's position will hold his value down a bit, too, but I don't see at this point what makes Novy less valuable overall than a guy like Roenick. If I was looking to take an offensive center here, I would probably pick Novy. He was likely the best pure scoring forward available.


Last edited by Sturminator: 02-18-2012 at 04:18 AM.
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02-18-2012, 04:14 AM
  #423
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sturminator View Post
I read it all, and I have a couple of comments:

1) Vaclav Nedomansky is overrated here. This is basically an artifact from pappyline's time in the ATD, and I think many GMs who have been paying attention are aware of this by now. There isn't a clear justification for the gap between Ned and Novy; I agree with you there.

2) Vladimir Martinec played for a weak Pardubice team in the Czech domestic league, while Novy played for Kladno during his prime, which was the Czech equivalent of CSKA Moscow.

3) Novy's Golden Sticks in 1981 and 1982 were won against a depleted league. I think it's unlikely he wins either of those awards if Peter Stastny stays in Europe.

The comparison here ultimately looks very similar to a comparison between Petrov and Maltsev, and as it is for the Russians, I think there is good justification for a meaningful gap between the players. That being said, if I was looking to take an offensive center here, I would probably pick Novy. He was probably the best scoring forward available.

- 5 Internet credit for you

- Obviously, Martinec's international accomplishment comes ahead of both Nedomansky and Novy. I also forgot to factor competition in my theory, which was wrong. However, although I understand the fact that Novy and Nedomansky had better 'entourage', the difference in term of results are astonishing. Great hockey players, even in bad environement, always found a way to put their name on the score sheet. If the difference had been minimal or somewhat close, I would of completely bought into the argument. However, the difference is such a world of difference, that I still believe both Nedomansky and Novy were better offensive player in the Czech league.

- Novy's Golden Stick awards in the 1980's were not compiled in the results. They were left out. As for the argument that he wouldn't of won them with Stastny around, it's obviously only speculation, but the year before Stastny left, Novy finished 2nd in scoring, 3rd in goals, 2nd in assists, while Stastny finished 6th in scoring, 8th in goals and 7 in assists. I think 'unlikely', should be reviewed as 'arguable', as Stastny was not destroying the competition before he came to NA.

- So in resume, you believe Martinec selection in the late 190's in ok, that Nedomansky should fall a great way, somewhat closer to Novy, and that Novy selection at this point, in the mid-300's, is fair? You gave some good argument for Martinec, which I partially agrees with, but I cannot conceive that the difference between Martinec and Nedomansky/Novy is 180 picks, or half the draft so far. I don't see it at all. I won't name players, as it always end up as a big war, but looking at the list of unidimensional forward and centre taken in the last 100 picks, Milan Novy looks good or in the same tier as almost all of them.

If you have any rebutal, which knowing you you surely do (), I will answer them tomorrow. Sleep time!

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02-18-2012, 04:25 AM
  #424
Sturminator
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You answered before I edited my post. Basically, I think that Nedomansky should go a couple of rounds lower, and Novy a couple rounds higher than at present. I think Ned at #250 and Novy at #300 would make a lot of sense. Among RWs, I think Nedomansky is on roughly the same level as guys like Hossa and Alfredsson. He's a better scorer, but brings less in intangibles. I don't think Novy can climb much higher than #300 because I see no reason to put him in the category of centers with guys like Federko and Nieuwendyk...on the strength of postseason success, if nothing else.

Martinec should probably keep rising in this thing. Just using ATD2012 as an example, I think he's very much in the conversation for best RW after Hextall. I could see Martinec around pick #170 (so where Nedomansky is now) without any problems.


Last edited by Sturminator: 02-18-2012 at 09:21 AM.
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02-18-2012, 05:57 AM
  #425
nik jr
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i have seen very little of these players, so i cannot say much about them. i know this issue of novy vs martinec vs nedomansky has arisen before. seem most likely to me that golden hockey stick voting valued international play (much) more than anything. iirc, czechoslovakian league also usually did not have playoffs.

martinec seems to have a far higher reputation in czech republic and slovakia than nedomansky or novy (and i think higher than anyone but hasek and jagr, and possibly suchy). i think soviets also had a higher opinion of martinec than of other czechoslovakian F's.

i wonder if novy's (seemingly) lower reputation is related to his missing some of the great triumphs of czechoslovkian hockey ('68, '72).


i hope reds and madarcand can say something about this. i don't know if they have seen much of them, though.



scoring is also not necessarily the best play to measure F's. if one player controls play but scores less than a player who adds nothing but points, stats can easily be misleading.

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