HFBoards

Go Back   HFBoards > Fantasy Hockey Talk > All Time Draft
All Time Draft Fantasy league where players of the past and present meet.

ATD 2012 - Draft Thread V

Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools
Old
02-18-2012, 07:42 AM
  #426
BM67
Registered User
 
BM67's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: In "The System"
Country: Canada
Posts: 4,565
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by EagleBelfour View Post
Vaclav Nedomansky: An amazing goalscorer, my opinion the best of the three. However, as you can see, I believe Novy was really close to him in term of scoring goals. In term of overall offence, all three are actually pretty close together, all thing consider. Martinec > Nedomansky >> Novy on the international stage, but Novy = Nedomansky > Martinec in the Czech league (look at Novy conclusion for the explanation). In 1972 and 1974, Nedomansky finished 1st in scoring in the Czech league. Golden stick result: 4th and 5th. Even though he was an incredible offensive machine, with great success in the local and international stages. However, he never received a golden stick, or even a very serious nomination, even at his best. Why? It's difficult to comprehend, but I return again to my second conclusion in the Martinec bio: Nedomansky always been a loner on and off the ice. Never the one to talk loudly. I may be stretching the reality, and I hate to give too much credit to a guy feeling, but I really can't figure out those Golden Stick results in a way that statistics would prove them completely correct.

Another thing is to give credit for his career outside Czechoslovakia:

WHA Scoring: 12th, 18th, 3Xst
NHL Scoring: 3Xst, 3Xst
WHA Most Gentlemanly Player (1976)

Just how much does those results affect positively Nedomansky overall career? It sure is a positive, and showed that he could adapt to the NA style of hockey. However, he didn't set the WHA or the NHL on fire. It's a small plus, but his legend lays in his country.
Short answer for Golden Stick voting: Slovan Bratislava was not a good team. In 74 when Nedomansky won the scoring race in a walk, they finished 7th with a .500 record. They were 3rd in GF and 11th in GA (12 teams). Shades of his WHA days.

They were a decent team in 72, finishing 2nd and Ned had a strong year internationally, so it doesn't make as much sense that year, until you look at who the team goalie was and how he finished one spot ahead of Ned in the voting.

As for his North American career: Nedomansky was born in 1944. Other NHL players born in 1944 scored 30+ goals (3 players, 13 times) and 70+ points (4 players, 10 times) from 68-69 to 74-75. Then along comes one Vaclav Nedomansky who did it in 78-79 & 79-80.

So the others born in 1944 started scoring 30+ goals and 70+ points 6 years before Nedomansky came to North America, and stopped doing it the year he arrived. Then 3 years later Nedomansky puts up 30+ and 70+ not once but twice.

The last time a player older than Nedomansky finished in the top 10 of NHL scoring was Jean Ratelle in 75-76.

Phil Esposito is the only player born within 2 years of Nedomansky, 42-46, to have more NHL GP, G, A or Pts past the age of 33 (when he made his NHL debut).

Of the NHL players born 42-46, Nedomansky is pretty strongly in 3rd place behind only the Brothers Esposito. Other Europeans might be a head of him, but I don't think any other NA players are.


Last edited by BM67: 02-18-2012 at 07:50 AM.
BM67 is offline  
Old
02-18-2012, 08:23 AM
  #427
Dreakmur
Registered User
 
Dreakmur's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Orillia, Ontario
Country: Canada
Posts: 7,773
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by jarek View Post
Wow.. Oatman was basically his team's best playmaker by a mile.
Take these for what you think they're worth.

Eddie Oatman's consolidated scoring finishes:
Points – 7th(1920), 9th(1918), 11th(1912), 11th(1914) 12th(1915), 12th(1916), 12th(1919), 15th(1917)

Goals – 8th(1914), 10th(1919), 11th(1912), 12th(1918), 13th(1915), 15th(1917), 15th(1920)

Assists – 1st(1920), 3rd(1918) 5th(1916), 6th(1921), 13th(1915), *14th(1913), 14th(1917), 16th(1919), 18th(1922)

*NHA did not record assists, so I just doubled Oatman's 7th in PCHA assists

Dreakmur is offline  
Old
02-18-2012, 08:27 AM
  #428
MadArcand
We do not sow
 
MadArcand's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Pyke
Country: Slovakia
Posts: 4,501
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by nik jr View Post

i hope reds and madarcand can say something about this. i don't know if they have seen much of them, though.
Well, judging just by reputation, Martinec > Nedomansky > Novy.

That said, EB's Golden Stick stats for Novy (1st, 2nd, 3rd, 4th, 4th, 8th) seem incomplete.

1st (1977)
1st (1981)
1st (1982)
2nd (1980)
3rd (1976)
4th (1975)
4th (1978)
8th (1973)

That's two 1st places missed, quite relevant.

BTW complete Golden Stick top 10s from 1969 to 2011 (though 1993-2011 is basically irrelevant):
http://www.zlatahokejka2009.cz/historie?rubrid=53

MadArcand is offline  
Old
02-18-2012, 09:04 AM
  #429
Sturminator
I voted for Kodos
 
Sturminator's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: West Egg, New York
Country: Ukraine
Posts: 7,386
vCash: 500
Allright...I wanted to let Reen announce his own pick, but I'm not going to let him go over his clock. Les Canadiens de Montréal select center Phil Goyette.

Sturminator is offline  
Old
02-18-2012, 09:13 AM
  #430
Hawkey Town 18
Moderator
 
Hawkey Town 18's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Chicago, IL
Posts: 4,141
vCash: 500
We are going to select a guy that was a shutdown center and penalty killer for most of his career, but when asked to play a more offensive role was named to one 1st and one 2nd All-Star Team. With the 374th pick the Chicago Shamrocks select Ken Mosdell, C

PMing next GM

Hawkey Town 18 is online now  
Old
02-18-2012, 09:25 AM
  #431
TheDevilMadeMe
Global Moderator
 
TheDevilMadeMe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Brooklyn
Country: United States
Posts: 37,813
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hawkey Town 18 View Post
We are going to select a guy that was a shutdown center and penalty killer for most of his career, but when asked to play a more offensive role was named to one 1st and one 2nd All-Star Team. With the 374th pick the Chicago Shamrocks select Ken Mosdell, C

PMing next GM
I considered Mosdell but

1) I had him before

2) I think he was just as influenced by playing with Toe Blake and Maurice Richard during his two outlier seasons as Pete Mahovlich was by Guy Lafleur during his two outlier seasons. There is also no evidence he played much of a defensive role when he was a big time scorer (though I haven't looked - maybe you can find something).

That said, he was still at the top of my list for pick 397 if he fell that far, so good pick. I guess the days when you can draft someone like Mosdell or Lepine in the 400s are over.

TheDevilMadeMe is online now  
Old
02-18-2012, 09:28 AM
  #432
TheDevilMadeMe
Global Moderator
 
TheDevilMadeMe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Brooklyn
Country: United States
Posts: 37,813
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dreakmur View Post
Take these for what you think they're worth.

Eddie Oatman's consolidated scoring finishes:
Points – 7th(1920), 9th(1918), 11th(1912), 11th(1914) 12th(1915), 12th(1916), 12th(1919), 15th(1917)

Goals – 8th(1914), 10th(1919), 11th(1912), 12th(1918), 13th(1915), 15th(1917), 15th(1920)

Assists – 1st(1920), 3rd(1918) 5th(1916), 6th(1921), 13th(1915), *14th(1913), 14th(1917), 16th(1919), 18th(1922)

*NHA did not record assists, so I just doubled Oatman's 7th in PCHA assists
Question - do these points adjust for the low number of assists given out for goal?

I think this project of yours is a useful rough estimate, so keep posting it, I just don't think you should have presented it as something as authoritative as you were earlier.

TheDevilMadeMe is online now  
Old
02-18-2012, 09:38 AM
  #433
Dreakmur
Registered User
 
Dreakmur's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Orillia, Ontario
Country: Canada
Posts: 7,773
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
Question - do these points adjust for the low number of assists given out for goal?
Adjust to today's level of assists per goal, no. Though, I already have the yearly assist per game ratios for each league, so it would be pretty quick to make the adjustments. What are today's levels, 1.5?

Adjust to equalize the difference between the leagues, yes.


1916 as a random example:
NHA handed out 0.356521739 assists per goal
PCHA handed out 0.548611111 assists per goal
To make it fair for both leagues, all NHA assist totals were multiplied by 1.538787263

Didier Pitre, who led the NHA in assists, ended up getting about 8.5 more assists, and jumped past Cyclone Taylor and Bernie Morris is the overall scoring race.

Dreakmur is offline  
Old
02-18-2012, 09:43 AM
  #434
Velociraptor
Nucks future 1C??
 
Velociraptor's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Maritimes
Country: Canada
Posts: 10,653
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sturminator View Post
Allright...I wanted to let Reen announce his own pick, but I'm not going to let him go over his clock. Les Canadiens de Montréal select center Phil Goyette.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hawkey Town 18 View Post
We are going to select a guy that was a shutdown center and penalty killer for most of his career, but when asked to play a more offensive role was named to one 1st and one 2nd All-Star Team. With the 374th pick the Chicago Shamrocks select Ken Mosdell, C

PMing next GM
Well out of the three guys I wanted at this pick, those were two. So it's an easy decision for me.

Derek "Turk" Sanderson, C



Quote:
Turk was as tough as nails, a tremendous forechecker and faceoff specialist and, with Ed Westfall, the top penalty killer of his era.
Next manager notified.

Velociraptor is offline  
Old
02-18-2012, 09:50 AM
  #435
arrbez
bad chi
 
arrbez's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Toronto
Country: Canada
Posts: 12,611
vCash: 500
Send a message via MSN to arrbez
LL texted his pick to me last night. Allow me to find my phone and retrieve it...

arrbez is offline  
Old
02-18-2012, 09:57 AM
  #436
arrbez
bad chi
 
arrbez's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Toronto
Country: Canada
Posts: 12,611
vCash: 500
Send a message via MSN to arrbez
With pick 376 The Toronto Maple Leafs select a gritty centre with two Stanley Cup rings and over 800 career points. The 4th in a long line of goofy looking dudes:

Brent Sutter




nik jr has been PMed

arrbez is offline  
Old
02-18-2012, 10:01 AM
  #437
Velociraptor
Nucks future 1C??
 
Velociraptor's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Maritimes
Country: Canada
Posts: 10,653
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by arrbez View Post
With pick 376 The Toronto Maple Leafs select a gritty centre with two Stanley Cup rings and over 800 career points. The 4th in a long line of goofy looking dudes:

Brent Sutter




nik jr has been PMed
Leaf now has 5 centers

Velociraptor is offline  
Old
02-18-2012, 10:08 AM
  #438
Dreakmur
Registered User
 
Dreakmur's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Orillia, Ontario
Country: Canada
Posts: 7,773
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Velociraptor View Post
Leaf now has 5 centers
I think that means he took the advice to move Sloan to RW.

Dreakmur is offline  
Old
02-18-2012, 10:09 AM
  #439
arrbez
bad chi
 
arrbez's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Toronto
Country: Canada
Posts: 12,611
vCash: 500
Send a message via MSN to arrbez
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dreakmur View Post
I think that means he took the advice to move Sloan to RW.
Yeah, he mentioned that in the text he sent me.

arrbez is offline  
Old
02-18-2012, 10:17 AM
  #440
BM67
Registered User
 
BM67's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: In "The System"
Country: Canada
Posts: 4,565
vCash: 500
Here are the adjusted career numbers for some early era stars using a slight variation of the Ideal Points method from the Hockey Compendium. The earliest season included is 08-09

PlayerSeasonsGPGAPts
Frank Boucher1813454319391370
Bill Cook1511736456771322
Cy Denneny151077499405904
Tommy Dunderdale151143436408844
Frank Foyston161168457438895
Duke Keats10685350531881
Newsy Lalonde1811335985421140
Mickey MacKay1511184895701059
Joe Malone151042504380884
Howie Morenz1410665426261168
Bernie Morris10758345411756
Frank Nighbor1813004486251073
Eddie Oatman161162346546892
Nels Stewart1511696555071162
Fred Taylor138133857171102

I gave Nighbor his career average of 37 assists (16 year average, not including the 29-30 season where he did not record an assist) for the 12-13 NHA season where assists were not awarded.
I don't have the numbers to include Taylor's 07-08 ECAHA season, and I gave him his average of 60 assists (9 year average, not including the 22-23 season where he did not record an assist) for the 3 ECHA/NHA seasons where assists were not awarded.
I gave Lalonde his average of 34 assists (12 year average, not including the 25-26 and 26-27 seasons where he did not record an assist) for the 4 NHA/PCHA seasons where assists were not awarded.
I gave Malone his average of 29 assists (9 year average, not including the 22-23 and 23-24 seasons where he did not record an assist) for the 4 NHA/ECHA seasons where assists were not awarded. His 09-10 season was left out, but his 08-09 season was included.
I gave Foyston his career average of 27 assists for the 12-13 NHA season where assists were not awarded.
I gave Oatman his average of 36 assists (13 year average, not including the 25-26 season where he did not record an assist) for the 2 NHA seasons where assists were not awarded.
I gave Dunderdale his average of 29 assists (11 year average, not including the 22-23 season where he did not record an assist) for the 3 NHA/PCHA seasons where assists were not awarded.

BM67 is offline  
Old
02-18-2012, 10:20 AM
  #441
Velociraptor
Nucks future 1C??
 
Velociraptor's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Maritimes
Country: Canada
Posts: 10,653
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by arrbez View Post
Yeah, he mentioned that in the text he sent me.
That's good, I think I like Sloan more on the wing anyway. I had him in my first draft, and after reading EB's bio I was much more impressed.

Velociraptor is offline  
Old
02-18-2012, 10:30 AM
  #442
Sturminator
I voted for Kodos
 
Sturminator's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: West Egg, New York
Country: Ukraine
Posts: 7,386
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
2) I think he was just as influenced by playing with Toe Blake and Maurice Richard during his two outlier seasons as Pete Mahovlich was by Guy Lafleur during his two outlier seasons. There is also no evidence he played much of a defensive role when he was a big time scorer (though I haven't looked - maybe you can find something).

That said, he was still at the top of my list for pick 397 if he fell that far, so good pick. I guess the days when you can draft someone like Mosdell or Lepine in the 400s are over.
Mosdell never played with Toe Blake. The one season when Mosdell was the Habs' de facto #1 C, he was the weakest offensive player on a line with Olmstead (who replaced Blake on the Punch line) and Richard, both of whom generated more assists that Mosdell that year. The next season, the Richard line became effectively Montreal's second unit (Jean Beliveau and Bernie Geoffrion blew up that year), and Richard again produced more assists than Mosdell, though I believe Olmstead was moved to the Beliveau line that season.

I think Mosdell is a paper tiger offensively. The circumstances of his very short peak with linemates who were both better scorers is damning enough, but his assists totals are particularly troubling for a center. I thought about drafting Mosdell at one point in a past draft, but I really like two-way third lines, and he didn't do it for me. I became convinced that he was not actually a player capable of leading a two-way line offensively, in spite of appearances, especially given how hard it is to get meaningful playmaking from the wing on a 3rd line. He seems to have been a hell of a checker, though.

Sturminator is offline  
Old
02-18-2012, 10:36 AM
  #443
TheDevilMadeMe
Global Moderator
 
TheDevilMadeMe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Brooklyn
Country: United States
Posts: 37,813
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sturminator View Post
Mosdell never played with Toe Blake. The one season when Mosdell was the Habs' de facto #1 C, he was the weakest offensive player on a line with Olmstead (who replaced Blake on the Punch line) and Richard, both of whom generated more assists that Mosdell that year. The next season, the Richard line became effectively Montreal's second unit (Jean Beliveau and Bernie Geoffrion blew up that year), and Richard again produced more assists than Mosdell, though I believe Olmstead was moved to the Beliveau line that season.

I think Mosdell is a paper tiger offensively. The circumstances of his very short peak with linemates who were both better scorers is damning enough, but his assists totals are particularly troubling for a center. I thought about drafting Mosdell at one point in a past draft, but I really like two-way third lines, and he didn't do it for me. I became convinced that he was not actually a player capable of leading a two-way line offensively, in spite of appearances, especially given how hard it is to get meaningful playmaking from the wing on a 3rd line. He seems to have been a hell of a checker, though.
Right - it's been awhile since I looked into Mosdell's linemates, I knew he was replacing Lach on the Richard line; forgot Blake was replaced by Olmstead by that point.

(With the HOH defenseman project winding down, I can actually focus on the ATD now).

TheDevilMadeMe is online now  
Old
02-18-2012, 11:04 AM
  #444
BillyShoe1721
Terriers
 
BillyShoe1721's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Philadelphia, PA
Country: United States
Posts: 16,621
vCash: 8476
Send a message via AIM to BillyShoe1721
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sturminator View Post
I read it all, and I have a couple of comments:

1) Vaclav Nedomansky is overrated here. This is basically an artifact from pappyline's time in the ATD, and I think many GMs who have been paying attention are aware of this by now. Nedomansky doesn't bring any intangibles besides size, and his offensive credentials, alone, are not enough to justify his draft position, IMO. He should go behind Martinec.

2) Vladimir Martinec played for a weak Pardubice team in the Czech domestic league, while Novy played for Kladno during his prime, which was the Czech equivalent of CSKA Moscow. We have to keep that in mind when looking at the scoring totals.

3) Novy's Golden Sticks in 1981 and 1982 were won against a depleted league. I think it's unlikely he wins either of those awards if Peter Stastny stays in Europe.

The comparison of these three players here ultimately looks very similar to a comparison between Petrov, Yakushev and Maltsev, and as it is for the Russians, I think there is good justification for Martinec's status being well above the others. But I agree with you that Nedomansky and Novy should be closer, probably by one falling and the other rising. Novy's position will hold his value down a bit, too, but I don't see at this point what makes Novy less valuable overall than a guy like Roenick. If I was looking to take an offensive center here, I would probably pick Novy. He was likely the best pure scoring forward available.
Very well put. And EB, I read all of that, where do I collect my Internet credits?

BillyShoe1721 is offline  
Old
02-18-2012, 11:06 AM
  #445
BillyShoe1721
Terriers
 
BillyShoe1721's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Philadelphia, PA
Country: United States
Posts: 16,621
vCash: 8476
Send a message via AIM to BillyShoe1721
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sturminator View Post
Allright...I wanted to let Reen announce his own pick, but I'm not going to let him go over his clock. Les Canadiens de Montréal select center Phil Goyette.
I was looking to get him as my 3rd line center. A solid two-way player who put up some very good numbers and has a very good all star record of 3, 4, 4, 6, and 8, although the 8th was with one vote.

BillyShoe1721 is offline  
Old
02-18-2012, 11:54 AM
  #446
Jafar
Keep it logical
 
Jafar's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Canada
Country: Canada
Posts: 8,831
vCash: 50
Thanks to Sturminator for making my pick !!!! Saved by the bell on this one , I was sleeping at my new date's place and was freaking out because I knew my pick was coming but was horrified when I learned her internet didn't worked since a week.

Really happy Goyette fell to me , I'm not sure what I would have done without him , he's a perfect fit and I think I'm the first GM to complete my top 9 , really happy about my top 9 right now , I have a good mix of everything.

I'm a little bit late on my bios , but I'll make it up this week and plan to make a bio for every single player on the team , even though some of them will be small , at least a little infos here and there.

Jafar is offline  
Old
02-18-2012, 12:02 PM
  #447
Jafar
Keep it logical
 
Jafar's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Canada
Country: Canada
Posts: 8,831
vCash: 50
Quote:
Originally Posted by arrbez View Post
doesn't matter - had sex
sex would have been there tomorrow , not Phil Goyette !!

My top 9:

Denneny - Nighbor - Balderis
Elias - Oates - Hextall Sr.
Ramsay - Goyette - Provost

Jafar is offline  
Old
02-18-2012, 12:08 PM
  #448
arrbez
bad chi
 
arrbez's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Toronto
Country: Canada
Posts: 12,611
vCash: 500
Send a message via MSN to arrbez
Quote:
Originally Posted by BenchBrawl View Post
sex would have been there tomorrow , not Phil Goyette !!
If ever there was a "you know you're an ATDer when..." moment, this was it.

arrbez is offline  
Old
02-18-2012, 12:09 PM
  #449
Dreakmur
Registered User
 
Dreakmur's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Orillia, Ontario
Country: Canada
Posts: 7,773
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by BenchBrawl View Post
sex would have been there tomorrow , not Phil Goyette !!

My top 9:

Denneny - Nighbor - Balderis
Elias - Oates - Hextall Sr.
Ramsay - Goyette - Provost
Looks a lot better than Provost on the 1st line. You can use your 3rd line to match up against 1st lines, and use Nighbor on the 2nd lines.

Dreakmur is offline  
Old
02-18-2012, 12:24 PM
  #450
Jafar
Keep it logical
 
Jafar's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Canada
Country: Canada
Posts: 8,831
vCash: 50
Quote:
Originally Posted by arrbez View Post
If ever there was a "you know you're an ATDer when..." moment, this was it.
I am what I am

Jafar is offline  
Closed Thread

Forum Jump


Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 02:51 AM.

monitoring_string = "e4251c93e2ba248d29da988d93bf5144"
Contact Us - HFBoards - Archive - Privacy Statement - Terms of Use - Advertise - Top - AdChoices

vBulletin Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
HFBoards.com is a property of CraveOnline Media, LLC, an Evolve Media, LLC company. ©2014 All Rights Reserved.