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ATD 2012 - Draft Thread V

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02-18-2012, 12:24 PM
  #451
DaveG
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BenchBrawl View Post
sex would have been there tomorrow , not Phil Goyette !!
****ing awesome

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02-18-2012, 12:26 PM
  #452
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sturminator View Post
You answered before I edited my post. Basically, I think that Nedomansky should go a couple of rounds lower, and Novy a couple rounds higher than at present. I think Ned at #250 and Novy at #300 would make a lot of sense. Among RWs, I think Nedomansky is on roughly the same level as guys like Hossa and Alfredsson. He's a better scorer, but brings less in intangibles. I don't think Novy can climb much higher than #300 because I see no reason to put him in the category of centers with guys like Federko and Nieuwendyk...on the strength of postseason success, if nothing else.

Martinec should probably keep rising in this thing. Just using ATD2012 as an example, I think he's very much in the conversation for best RW after Hextall. I could see Martinec around pick #170 (so where Nedomansky is now) without any problems.
Fair enough about Nedomansky and Novy. On Novy especially, since I researched him more, I can agree that around spot 300 is fair for him. I won't name the centre that I think are better than him at that range, but I remember looking at Nieuwendyk and Federko, thinking that although Novy is decently the better offensive weapon, both of them bring playoff success at the higher league that make them difficult to rank lower than Novy. Getting picked around them is where he should go.

As for Martinec, I havn't seen enough evidence to think he should rise even more. However, I havn't research him much more than the little statisitcal crunch I've made earlier in the day. I'm obviously always ready to hear an argument!

Quote:
Originally Posted by nik jr View Post
i have seen very little of these players, so i cannot say much about them. i know this issue of novy vs martinec vs nedomansky has arisen before. seem most likely to me that golden hockey stick voting valued international play (much) more than anything. iirc, czechoslovakian league also usually did not have playoffs.

martinec seems to have a far higher reputation in czech republic and slovakia than nedomansky or novy (and i think higher than anyone but hasek and jagr, and possibly suchy). i think soviets also had a higher opinion of martinec than of other czechoslovakian F's.

i wonder if novy's (seemingly) lower reputation is related to his missing some of the great triumphs of czechoslovkian hockey ('68, '72).

i hope reds and madarcand can say something about this. i don't know if they have seen much of them, though.

scoring is also not necessarily the best play to measure F's. if one player controls play but scores less than a player who adds nothing but points, stats can easily be misleading.
- They obviously value international play alot. It's not a question at that point

- It's true that reputation favors Martinec over Nedomansky and Novy. Again, it's not arguable.

- Perhaps, although he scored the most important goal for the Czech in the 1976 Canada Cup to win silver. But it's true he did miss some great results for them.

- I hope they do

- Obviously, watching the players in action will always be the better measure to compare players. However, at this time I went with the best I could find. I'm starting a discussion on these players, and hopefully new information will arise to being a more complete picture of them.

EDIT: If we went by reputation alone, Martin Brodeur would be the first goaltender selected in this draft. It's a very good to interpret players career, but hopefully we can find more.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BM67 View Post
Short answer for Golden Stick voting: Slovan Bratislava was not a good team. In 74 when Nedomansky won the scoring race in a walk, they finished 7th with a .500 record. They were 3rd in GF and 11th in GA (12 teams). Shades of his WHA days.

They were a decent team in 72, finishing 2nd and Ned had a strong year internationally, so it doesn't make as much sense that year, until you look at who the team goalie was and how he finished one spot ahead of Ned in the voting.

As for his North American career: Nedomansky was born in 1944. Other NHL players born in 1944 scored 30+ goals (3 players, 13 times) and 70+ points (4 players, 10 times) from 68-69 to 74-75. Then along comes one Vaclav Nedomansky who did it in 78-79 & 79-80.

So the others born in 1944 started scoring 30+ goals and 70+ points 6 years before Nedomansky came to North America, and stopped doing it the year he arrived. Then 3 years later Nedomansky puts up 30+ and 70+ not once but twice.

The last time a player older than Nedomansky finished in the top 10 of NHL scoring was Jean Ratelle in 75-76.

Phil Esposito is the only player born within 2 years of Nedomansky, 42-46, to have more NHL GP, G, A or Pts past the age of 33 (when he made his NHL debut).

Of the NHL players born 42-46, Nedomansky is pretty strongly in 3rd place behind only the Brothers Esposito. Other Europeans might be a head of him, but I don't think any other NA players are.
Very interesting. Nedomansky was definitely a very resilient forward. However, Nedomansky never came close to finish Top-10 in scoring in the NHL. The highest he finished was 17th in the WHA, and in his two years in the NHL, he finished in the 30's.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MadArcand View Post
Well, judging just by reputation, Martinec > Nedomansky > Novy.

That said, EB's Golden Stick stats for Novy (1st, 2nd, 3rd, 4th, 4th, 8th) seem incomplete.

1st (1977)
1st (1981)
1st (1982)
2nd (1980)
3rd (1976)
4th (1975)
4th (1978)
8th (1973)

That's two 1st places missed, quite relevant.

BTW complete Golden Stick top 10s from 1969 to 2011 (though 1993-2011 is basically irrelevant):
http://www.zlatahokejka2009.cz/historie?rubrid=53
I know, I missed them, mea culpa. However, as Sturminator point it out, I believe getting great results in the Golden Stick in the 1970's was more impressive than in the 1980's. The 1979-80 seasons is the last season of the Stastny's in the league, although Martinec did play in 1980-81. Some other great players were there for the competition, but the 1970's were the golden era for Czech players.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dreakmur View Post
I think that means he took the advice to move Sloan to RW.
Sloan played far more centre than RW, although is capable at both position.

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Originally Posted by BillyShoe1721 View Post
Very well put. And EB, I read all of that, where do I collect my Internet credits?
- It is automatically given into your account, havn't you receive them?

Quote:
Originally Posted by arrbez View Post
doesn't matter - had sex
Thinly veiled brag about having sex.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BenchBrawl View Post
sex would have been there tomorrow , not Phil Goyette !!

My top 9:

Denneny - Nighbor - Balderis
Elias - Oates - Hextall Sr.
Ramsay - Goyette - Provost
That's one crazy Top-9. We'll see how you fugure out that defence now.


Last edited by EagleBelfour: 02-18-2012 at 12:31 PM.
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Old
02-18-2012, 12:38 PM
  #453
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Originally Posted by EagleBelfour View Post
I know, I missed them, mea culpa. However, as Sturminator point it out, I believe getting great results in the Golden Stick in the 1970's was more impressive than in the 1980's. The 1979-80 seasons is the last season of the Stastny's in the league, although Martinec did play in 1980-81. Some other great players were there for the competition, but the 1970's were the golden era for Czech players.
Eh, I don't know about that. The 70s stuff is definitely up for debate. As for his results in 80's, I hardly anyone worth note outside Stastny and Nedomansky was in the NHL, so it's hardly 'depleted league' (about as depleted as this season in the NHL with Crosby out...).

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02-18-2012, 12:42 PM
  #454
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Originally Posted by MadArcand View Post
Eh, I don't know about that. The 70s stuff is definitely up for debate. As for his results in 80's, I hardly anyone worth note outside Stastny and Nedomansky was in the NHL, so it's hardly 'depleted league' (about as depleted as this season in the NHL with Crosby out...).
Fair point. Add that Nedomansky was outside the league since 1975.

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02-18-2012, 12:42 PM
  #455
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I was meaning to ask this before. In what way were the czech league depleted?

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02-18-2012, 12:49 PM
  #456
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Originally Posted by jkrx View Post
I was meaning to ask this before. In what way were the czech league depleted?
Depleted was the wrong words. I was only saying that the league in 1980-81 had lost a few of his elite players in the Stastny's and Nedomansky (who was gone since the mid-1970's), while it was the end of road/almost for players like Frantisek Pospisil and Jan Suchy. It felt like the end of the golden era of the league, but depleted was not the word I should of use.

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02-18-2012, 01:29 PM
  #457
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That would be silly, but you do have a very variable option to use him at forward on the PK
I don't know , I think I'm better off keeping him at D

Nighbor - Ramsay
Goyette - Provost

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02-18-2012, 01:30 PM
  #458
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Originally Posted by BenchBrawl View Post
I don't know , I think I'm better off keeping him at D

My PK forwards:
Nighbor - Ramsay
Goyette - Provost
Probably. Especially considering you don't want Boyle anywhere near an ATD PK.

I don't think it's possible to create a top PK pair better than Nighbor-Ramsay

I think Ramsay's even strength **** down ability is overrated, but he's as good a PKer as anyone in the draft

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02-18-2012, 01:35 PM
  #459
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jkrx View Post
I was meaning to ask this before. In what way were the czech league depleted?
Martinec was over the hill, Pospisil was retired, Holecek was in Germany and the Stastnys were in North America. When talking about the Golden Stick award, not having the best player in the league from the season before (Stastny won it in 1979-80), and the best players in the league from the decade before (Martinec, Pospisil and Holecek) is very relevant.

Do you think seriously the generation of Czech talent that was in its prime in the 1980-82 timeframe was as good as that against which Martinec competed?

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02-18-2012, 01:38 PM
  #460
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Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
I think Ramsay's even strength **** down ability is overrated, but he's as good a PKer as anyone in the draft
Ramsay's ****down ability is actually pretty crappy.

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02-18-2012, 01:38 PM
  #461
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From what I can gather, the 70's generation was really the golden generation of Czech hockey.

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02-18-2012, 01:42 PM
  #462
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Originally Posted by Sturminator View Post
Ramsay's ****down ability is actually pretty crappy.
Wow, you can see what I usually type about on my phone if that's what auto-correct changed it to.

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02-18-2012, 01:43 PM
  #463
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Originally Posted by Nalyd Psycho View Post
From what I can gather, the 70's generation was really the golden generation of Czech hockey.
I agree.

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02-18-2012, 01:47 PM
  #464
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nalyd Psycho View Post
From what I can gather, the 70's generation was really the golden generation of Czech hockey.
I wonder how they'd fare against a Czech squad from the mid 1990's - mid 2000's era. Jagr and Hasek are the obvious stars, but those Czech national teams had a lot of very, very good NHL players (including Elias, and a couple other guys who often go in the ATD).

This is particularly true if the Czech and Slovak teams were merged like they were in the 1970's. Bondra, Palffy, and a number of others, including some young up-and-comers like Hossa and Chara.

The internet also tells me that the Slovak 1996 World Cup roster featured a player named Roman Mega. That's tough to compete with.


Last edited by arrbez: 02-18-2012 at 01:56 PM.
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02-18-2012, 01:48 PM
  #465
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sturminator View Post
Martinec was over the hill, Pospisil was retired, Holecek was in Germany and the Stastnys were in North America. When talking about the Golden Stick award, not having the best player in the league from the season before (Stastny won it in 1979-80), and the best players in the league from the decade before (Martinec, Pospisil and Holecek) is very relevant.

Do you think seriously the generation of Czech talent that was in its prime in the 1980-82 timeframe was as good as that against which Martinec competed?
When did I say that? I asked how the league was depleted.

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02-18-2012, 01:50 PM
  #466
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Originally Posted by jkrx View Post
When did I say that? I asked how the league was depleted.
Ok...fair enough. The point is that it lacked the high-end talent that it had during Martinec's prime.

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02-18-2012, 01:56 PM
  #467
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Originally Posted by Sturminator View Post
Ok...fair enough. The point is that it lacked the high-end talent that it had during Martinec's prime.
It's true that it missed those high-end elites but Novy was pretty much right behind those players the season before.

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02-18-2012, 02:00 PM
  #468
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By the way, this really burns my biscuits:

374. Hawkey Town 18 - Chicago Shamrocks - Ken Mosdell, C
375. Velociraptor - Australia Mighty Roos - Derek Sanderson, C
376. Leaf Lander - Toronto Maple Leafs - Brent Sutter, C

My list for 397 was going to be those 3 in the exact order that you guys picked them. I guess the ATD has reached a point where it's incredibly difficult to even get mini-steals.

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02-18-2012, 02:02 PM
  #469
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Originally Posted by BillyShoe1721 View Post
I was looking to get him as my 3rd line center. A solid two-way player who put up some very good numbers and has a very good all star record of 3, 4, 4, 6, and 8, although the 8th was with one vote.
Yeah...he also placed 9th and 10th in Hart trophy voting (both times getting at least two votes), in New York and St. Louis, respectively. Goyette is pretty much the prototype for a two-way 3rd line center. I think he and Novy were sort of co-BPAs before they were drafted.

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02-18-2012, 02:17 PM
  #470
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Originally Posted by arrbez View Post
The internet also tells me that the Slovak 1996 World Cup roster featured a player named Roman Mega. That's tough to compete with.


Man was he horrible.

Though not a patch on Pavol 'I'm the only goalie ever to allow 4 goals from the Japanese' Rybar (Fisherman, apt name for one fishing the pucks out of his net all the time).

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02-18-2012, 02:18 PM
  #471
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I wonder how they'd fare against a Czech squad from the mid 1990's - mid 2000's era. Jagr and Hasek are the obvious stars, but those Czech national teams had a lot of very, very good NHL players (including Elias, and a couple other guys who often go in the ATD).

This is particularly true if the Czech and Slovak teams were merged like they were in the 1970's. Bondra, Palffy, and a number of others, including some young up-and-comers like Hossa and Chara.

The internet also tells me that the Slovak 1996 World Cup roster featured a player named Roman Mega. That's tough to compete with.
That's true. Chara was latter though. But I'm not sure how much those teams were skewed by having the two best Czech players ever and Canada having one of it's lowest points ever.

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02-18-2012, 02:27 PM
  #472
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Link to my Howie Morenz bio

Complete with statistical and awards breakdowns by pre and post forward pass as well as pre and post league consolidation.

The 2 main things I took away from the breakdown analysis were...
1. Most of Morenz's award recognition came after league consolidation
2. After the forward pass is introduced Morenz's goals and assists finishes show that he is a balanced player, as opposed to the goal scoring biased player most people think of him as (his assists finishes are actually slightly better than his goals finishes during this time).

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02-18-2012, 03:19 PM
  #473
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Originally Posted by EagleBelfour View Post
Very interesting. Nedomansky was definitely a very resilient forward. However, Nedomansky never came close to finish Top-10 in scoring in the NHL. The highest he finished was 17th in the WHA, and in his two years in the NHL, he finished in the 30's.
Who else near his age was any closer?

There were 25 30+ goal seasons by players 33 or older in the NHL between 73-74 and 83-84. Nedomansky was responsible for 2 of the 25. 16 of the other 23 belong to HHoFers.

There were 29 70+ point seasons by players 33 or older in the NHL between 73-74 and 83-84. Nedomansky was responsible for 2 of the 29. 22 of the other 27 belong to HHoFers.

There were 23 30+ goal & 70+ seasons by players 33 or older in the NHL between 73-74 and 83-84. Nedomansky was responsible for 2 of the 23. 16 of the other 21 belong to HHoFers.

The last time Mikita made the top 50 in scoring he was 34. Nedomansky did it at 35. Do you really think a top 10 finish after the age of 30 is the standard Nedomansky needed to reach to prove himself?

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02-18-2012, 03:26 PM
  #474
Hawkey Town 18
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Art Ross bio

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02-18-2012, 04:26 PM
  #475
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Vladimir Martinec bio

Most of the content is from TDMM's bio that's been used the last couple years, but I've added a few things along with EB's Czech league stats

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