I don't think we're going to see Jagr described as "hard-nosed" or "tough" anytime soon, and I am fairly certain he's never injured any hall of fame defensemen with a bodycheck. Hextall sounds more to me like a Johnny Bucyk type physical player.
What I meant was that he seemed like a player who could hold his ground because of strength on his skates while being a good hitter. What does hall of fame has to do with anyhting? Are they more injury resistant than the ones that dont make it?
All I know is that Hextall was known as a gentleman, how many times have you heard Bucyk described in that way?
Reardon was specifically known for his toughness. So in this case, yes.
Reardon was banged up all the time, wasn't he? He was regularly missing 8-10 games a year, and if I recall he had to hang them up before age 30 due to injuries.
Reardon was banged up all the time, wasn't he? He was regularly missing 8-10 games a year, and if I recall he had to hang them up before age 30 due to injuries.
Reardon was known for playing through a wide variety of injuries; he was a very tough guy. Reading about him being helped off the ice with blood coming from his mouth leaves one with the impression that he got seriously creamed. Are you trying to question Hextall's toughness here, or just arguing with me for the fun of it?
Quote:
Originally Posted by jkrx
But he was tough so it's impossible for a average physical player to injure him.
What's your vector, guy? You are wasting my time. The information we now have on Hextall simply does not paint the picture of a Jagr-type physical player, but rather a guy who was a hard hitter who initiated contact. The documents speak for themselves.
Last edited by seventieslord: 02-21-2012 at 11:27 AM.
Reardon was known for playing through a wide variety of injuries; he was a very tough guy. Reading about him being helped off the ice with blood coming from his mouth leaves one with the impression that he got seriously creamed. Are you trying to question Hextall's toughness here, or just arguing with me for the fun of it?
Why so defensive?
I just thought it was worth mentioning based on this exchange:
Quote:
Originally Posted by jkrx
What does hall of fame has to do with anyhting? Are they more injury resistant than the ones that dont make it?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sturminator
Reardon was specifically known for his toughness. So in this case, yes.
Reardon was a warrior, but he was hardly invincible out there.
What's your vector, guy? You are wasting my time. The information we now have on Hextall simply does not paint the picture of a Jagr-type physical player, but rather a guy who was a hard hitter who initiated contact. The documents speak for themselves.
No they don't, you point at some journalists writing he was a tough player which basically says nothing. He's tough, never argued that. Then you point at one incident as definitive that he was so strong he could hit like monster at any given time.
I don't think anyone is championing Hextall as the best physical player ever. Questions were raised as to Hextall's ability to win pucks (not the quality of his ability, just any ability at all), and Sturm provided several quotes that support that he does, indeed, have the ability to win pucks. It's up to you to decide the quality of that ability, but the fact that he has puck winning ability should not be in question here, because Sturm showed that he clearly does.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hobnobs
Maybe somebody should but Cook do have more reports about being physical than Hextall. Same thing with a guy like Broadbent. As I said, Hextall might have been a physical player in the sense that he could hit and was strong enough to skate through defenseman but so could Jagr. All I'm saying is that if you are going to make a claim about a player then back it up if its questioned.
This is a poor comparison, because what I remember of Jagr is that he was a master of controlling the puck along the boards and nobody could touch him.
3x NHL All Star Game Participant
9x Top 8 Goals Among Defensemen(1, 2, 2, 3, 4, 5, 5, 6, 8)
7x Top 14 Assists Among Defensemen(5, 6, 9, 10, 11, 13, 14)
9x Top 14 Points Among Defensemen(3, 3, 4, 6, 7, 8, 11, 13, 14)
Detroit Red Wings Captain, 1980-82
73 career NHL fights
Voting Recognition:
1 All Star Point in 82, 83, 84
1 Norris Point in 79, 85
10th All Star, 77-78
3 All Star Points, 85
4 Norris Points, 81
During 9 year peak(among defensemen), 1977-78 to 1985-86:
2nd in Goals(1 behind Coffey), 4th in goals/game
5th in Assists(behind Potvin, Robinson, Coffey, Salming, 19th in assists/game
3rd in Points(behind Coffey, Potvin), 10th in points/game
Quote:
A tough, offensive defenseman, he was particularly well known for his hard slap shot. Larson became the first American player to score 200 goals and he appeared in the 1978, 1980 and 1981 NHL All-Star Games as the Red Wings representative. He finally made his international debut for the United States national team at the 1981 World Ice Hockey Championships tournament and also represented the U.S. at the 1981 Canada Cup.
Reed Larson ranks as one of the greatest American born and raised hockey players in the history of the sport. That being said, he is rarely recognized as such. This is partly because his career pre-dated the generation of American stars that first gained acclaim in the NHL, players like Jeremy Roenick, Brett Hull and Chris Chelios.
Reed Larson's hockey sense was uncanny, as he could read plays develop better than most players. He was a top offensive defenseman throughout the early 1980s, thanks largely to his effective shot. He would score many goals in his career, and many of his assists were a result of rebounds or deflections from his booming point shot.
Larson, a Minneapolis, Minnesota native, who starred in Minnesota high school hockey and later at the University of Minnesota before leaving school early to join the Detroit Red Wings in 1977. Though he left university early, he always cherished his time as an amateur. He led the team to a national championship in his second year, and he should have won another but his school was upset by Michigan Tech.
Larson was drafted 22nd overall by the Red Wings in 1976 but returned to school after he couldn't agree on a contract with the Wings. However when Reed was suspended from WCHA competition for the rest of the season after assaulting an on-ice official, Larson decided to join the Red Wings with 14 games left in the NHL season.
Reed proved he was ready for the NHL almost from day one as he embarked upon one of the greatest hockey careers any American defenseman has ever had. He finished as runner-up in the NHL rookie of the year race thanks to an impressive 19 goal, 60 point season. That was just a sign of great things to come. Over the next nine years as a Red Wing, the smooth skating defenseman amazingly never scored fewer than 17 goals or 58 points! Those totals included five consecutive 20-plus goal seasons including a career high 27 in 1980-81; and he had 8 of 9 seasons with over 60 pints, including a career high 74 in 1982-83. As a Red Wing he participated in three NHL all star games, as well as the 1981 Canada Cup and 1981 world championships.
A late season trade in 1986 saw Larson become a member of the Boston Bruins, where he played for parts of three seasons. It was with Boston that Reed tallied his 200th NHL goal, a milestone for defenseman and the single most celebrated statistic in his career.. He was the first American and only the 6th NHL player to reach the lofty level.
Reed Larson is the pure product of the Minnesota youth hockey program. High school hockey reaches a fevered pitch each year during their annual tournaments. It was in this context that Larson burst onto the high school scene as an all-city and all-state player. Three seasons under coach Herb Brooks at the University of Minnesota molded the young defender into one of the steadier defensemen of his generation.
Larson broke into the NHL via the Detroit Red Wings where he was a runner-up for the Calder Trophy as the league's top rookie. The acknowledgement was no fluke. In the ensuing years he recorded five 20-goal seasons and eight 60-point campaigns. He was the first American-born player and the sixth defenseman to score 200 career goals.
When Reed Larson wound up at the point, players scattered and goalies prayed he'd shoot wide.
"I faced a lot of shots, but no shooter fired the puck harder than Reed Larson," said goalie Ron Low, who dealt with Larson as an opponent and in practice as a Detroit teammate. "No matter what anyone says, Bobby Hull never shot the puck as hard as Reed did."
Those powerful blasts allowed Larson to rewrite the record book for Red Wings defensemen and for American-born NHL players. A native of Minneapolis, Larson won an NCAA title with the University of Minnesota in 1976, the year the Wings drafted him. "Reed has unlimited potential," Detroit GM Ted Lindsay said. "The potential to be an all-star."
He made his NHL debut late in the 1976-77 campaign, then rocketed to stardom the following season.
His 41 assists and 60 points were new records for Detroit defensemen, let alone for Wings rookie rearguards. But, like Babe Ruth's home-run numbers, Larson just kept breaking his own marks.
"He moves so effortlessly and he's got a lot of talent," assessed fellow Wings defenseman Terry Harper.
Larson collected 67 points in 1978-79 and tallied 22 goals in 1979-80, breaking the club mark for goals by a defenseman of 20, set by Flash Hollett in 1944-45. Not satisfied to stop there, Larson bagged 27 goals in 1980-81, one of six 20-goal seasons during his career. He garnered 52 asissts and 74 points in 1982-83, once again bettering his own records.
Larson is one of only three defensemen in NHL history to record at least nine straight seasons with 50 or more points. His nine successive 50-point campaigns came from 1977-78 through 1985-86, joining Paul Coffey (15) and Phil Housley (11) in this select group.
Larson posted five consecutive 20-goal seasons from 1979-80 through 1983-84. Among NHL defensemen, only Bobby Orr (seven) ever put together a longer stretch of 20-goal performances.
Serving as Detroit captain in 1980-81 and 1981-82, Larson played for the United States in the 1981 World Championships and Canada Cup. He collected his 451st point as a Wing on October 1, 1984 to surpass Red Kelly as the all-time leading scorer among Detroit defenders. Larson was the first U.S.-born NHLer to collect 500 points and the fifth Red Wing to reach this plateau.
"He was a good skater, moved the puck well and had quite a shot," was current Wings coach Scotty Bowman's scouting report on Larson.
Minneapolis Roosevelt’s Reed Larson joined the revolution by dunking his stick blades in boiling pots of water, then wedging them in doorways and other tight spaces while giving them a good bend.
The resulting banana blades added velocity and lift to Larson’s already cannon shots. The homespun “technology” was only small component in the creation of what is widely regarded as one of the hardest slap shots in state high school history.
“We all did that,” said Bill Baker, a former standout Grand Rapids defenseman, about doctoring stick blades. “But we didn’t shoot like Reed.”
The stocky Larson (he stood 5-foot-11 and weighed 185 pounds as a sophomore) spent his summers water skiing at his parents’ lake cabin. He was also into wrestling and gymnastics.
“That had a lot to do with my muscle development,” Larson said about his non-hockey activities. “Gymnastics was actually my favorite. If I turned on the Olympics that’s what I wanted to watch.”
Larson said he attended YMCA summer camps where his counselor was a state gymnastics champ. The rings and high bar were two of his preferred disciplines.
Muscle was packed onto muscle as those gymnastics-built beefy forearms and thick wrists were stressed and strained during regular shooting sessions in the Larsons’ garage.
“I helped my dad clean out one side of it, and we found an old wrestling mat that we hung up to shoot at,” Larson said. “I loved to shoot. I was always experimenting with different sticks and shafts and curves.”
The slippery plastic of an old “Mini-Boggan” sled served as the launching pad for slap shot after slap shot.
Larson was playing varsity for Minneapolis Roosevelt as a sophomore in 1971-72, and by his junior and senior seasons had established himself as one of the state’s premier defensemen.
“He had a great shot from the 10th grade on,” former Roosevelt coach Bucky Freeburg said. “He broke a lot of sticks and a lot of ankles and everything else. He was a tough kid who had a little mean streak in him. He proved that right away his first year.”
Minneapolis Roosevelt's Reed Larson won an NCAA title with the University of Minnesota in 1976. Star Tribune file photo
The Teddies were 16-1-2 when they reached the 1974 state tournament with Larson, a senior, as their leading scorer.
Roosevelt led Grand Rapids 2-1 entering the third period, but the Indians tied it in the first minute. The game was extended to overtime, and Grand Rapids won the quarterfinal matchup 3-2 on a goal by Erin Roth.
According to Freeburg, Larson was at the center of a controversial play in the third period.
“He took a 100-mph shot from center ice and scored, and they called one of our players offsides,” Freeburg said. “That was really a killer. The goal would have put us up 3-1, and the way we were really playing tight defense against them, I don’t think they would have come back.”
Larson said the Teddies might have been looking past Grand Rapids and ahead to a potential showdown against eventual champion Edina East. Larson said Roosevelt had matched up well against the Hornets despite losing a regular season showdown between the teams.
“I would have liked to play Edina again,” Larson said. “I really believe we were the second best team in the state behind Edina.”
Larson went to the University of Minnesota, where he won a national championship in 1976.
Baker, who had played against Larson in the 1974 state tournament, was teammates with Larson with the Gophers. Baker said Minnesota's unsophisticated power play acquired the nickname "Feed Reed." As in, get the puck to Larson, then get out of the way.
Other Bruins who have impressed during the 1980s include Charlie Simmer, Cam Neely, Reed Larson, and even little Nevin ... For all his Red Wings days, Larson laboured on a perennial loser but he handled it like a gentleman throughout .
Detroit's star rookie Reed Larson didn't want to talk about his record point total in the Red Wings 7-0 shutout of the Buffalo Sabres last night.
Even though the defenseman scored his 19th goal and added four assists to set an NHL record of 57 points for a rookie defenseman, Larson much preferred to talk about his club's playoff position.
Reed Larson joined an elite group, Gilles Gilbert nailed down a No. 1 goaltending job and together Thursday night they lifted Detroit Red Wings a step closer to an NHL playoff spot.
Larson, holder of several scoring records for Detroit defensemen, slid a wrist shot past Chicago goaltender Murray Bannerman during a first period power play to snap a 1-1 tie and the Red Wings went on to post a surprising 4-2 victory over Chicago Blackhawks.
With his goal, his 20th of the season, Larosn joined former great Bobby Orr and Denis Potvin of New York Islanders as the only NHL defensemen in history to reach the 20 goal plateau in four consecutive years.
"That's all right," Larson beamed when informed of the feat. "I'm not complaining."
I don't think anyone is championing Hextall as the best physical player ever. Questions were raised as to Hextall's ability to win pucks (not the quality of his ability, just any ability at all), and Sturm provided several quotes that support that he does, indeed, have the ability to win pucks. It's up to you to decide the quality of that ability, but the fact that he has puck winning ability should not be in question here, because Sturm showed that he clearly does.
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My issue was never with Hextalls physical play, I can buy him as a physical player. My issue is that he is the primary physical and goal scoring component of that 2nd line.
Can he handle that role? Will it hurt is goal scoring that he has to be the only muscle of the line as well?
thanks to sturminator , I asked him the complete articles as when I found some other quote about hextall it was only in little part and it was pay-per-view but I knew sturm could provide some of them.
Seems like Hextall Sr. was a good goal scorer , skater , stickhandler and a tough player.
thanks to sturminator , I asked him the complete articles as when I found some other quote about hextall it was only in little part and it was pay-per-view but I knew sturm could provide some of them.
Seems like Hextall Sr. was a good goal scorer , skater , stickhandler and a tough player.
It sounds like he had a decent big body presence and wasn't afraid of the corners or to stand up for himself. Obviously he was a very good goal scorer we know that - whether or not he was tough in the way we think of a powerforward isn't sure at this point.
It sounds like he had a decent big body presence and wasn't afraid of the corners or to stand up for himself. Obviously he was a very good goal scorer we know that - whether or not he was tough in the way we think of a powerforward isn't sure at this point.
What does this even mean anyway? Either way being tough and capable of going in the corners while being a great goal scorer playing with Adam Oates is good enough for me.
My issue was never with Hextalls physical play, I can buy him as a physical player. My issue is that he is the primary physical and goal scoring component of that 2nd line.
Can he handle that role? Will it hurt is goal scoring that he has to be the only muscle of the line as well?
Who knows. That's for his GM to convince everyone of. I was just addressing the concern that Hextall couldn't do it at all.
Who knows. That's for his GM to convince everyone of. I was just addressing the concern that Hextall couldn't do it at all.
So now I have to adress the degree to which Hextall was going ino the corners , and how it affected his goalscoring?
this is just getting ridiculous franckly , he did won scoring titles and nothings shows that he was less physical in those years , so that's good enough for me.There's a limit to what I can find on Bryan Hextall Sr. and you know it.Nothing suggest his goalscoring was affected by his style of play , so it's to the other people who want to discredit him to adress that , not me to prove it.
I still remember the days when GBC would claim that any random winger from the O6 era must be good defensively because "everybody had to be a good two-way player to stick in the NHL during that era". Ughh...was not a fan of that line of thinking.
Another ATD artifact, though thankfully this one is buried deep and we don't keep finding fragments just below the surface.
Stanley Cup Champion (1961)
Stanley Cup Finalist (1965)
NHL Second All-Star Team (1963, 1964)
Played in NHL All-Star Game (1961, 1963, 1964, 1969)
Team Captain (1968-1969)
Unfortunately, there's not a lot of information on Moose Vasko around the Internet. Not a lot in the books I own either. Anyway, if you want to refresh your memory as to what kind of player he was, click the link: it shouldn't be a long read
