Can we describe Hyland as the goalscoring version of Oatman, meaning both are equal in value, but you choose Oatman if you need a playmaking presence on your right side, and Hyland if you need goalscoring?
Well yes, Hyland is a better goalscorer but that is all. I would not say they are of equal value, at least based on past research.
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Let me be the 10th to say I think Dutton's all star and hart records are incredibly incongruent and confusing (his hhof induction sure doesn't help either, considering his time as an nhl exec)
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Lastly, TDMM, are you sure Mahovlich is an elite penalty killer? I know he showed up really well in that one poll but IIRC that was following his one great season in that regard. I am on my phone with no access to my stats, and I'll recant if I am wrong, but that is how I remember it.
Lastly, TDMM, are you sure Mahovlich is an elite penalty killer? I know he showed up really well in that one poll but IIRC that was following his one great season in that regard. I am on my phone with no access to my stats, and I'll recant if I am wrong, but that is how I remember it.
His PPGA are very odd. They seem to fluctuate wildly from being very good, to barely killing any penalties at all:
From 67-68 to 80-81: 0, 3, 0, 13, 20, 18, 31, 25, 4, 1, 30, 2, 22, 8.
Here is Part 1 of the plan:
C/LW Fred Stanfield
He seems like a perfect linemate for Hyland on the 3rd line. A little bit of physicality, a decent two-way player, and a very strong playmaker to complement Hyland's goal scoring. I'm not sure what position he'll play yet, it depends upon who is available at my next pick to complement Hyland and Stanfield. He will also be playing the point on my 2nd PP instead of Leo Boivin in order to take advantage of his success on the PP in his career. This also may allow me to double shift Boivin on the PK, haven't decided yet.
Last edited by seventieslord: 02-21-2012 at 11:29 AM.
I don't see what's so weird about a 2 time WCHL 1st team all-star being good in the NHL.
Good point, we shouldn't forget that he was great in the west... This may have been the tipping point for him.
Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyShoe1721
His PPGA are very odd. They seem to fluctuate wildly from being very good, to barely killing any penalties at all:
From 67-68 to 80-81: 0, 3, 0, 13, 20, 18, 31, 25, 4, 1, 30, 2, 22, 8.
That's not great, hey?
I think if we are to call someone an elite penalty killer, he should be a guy who always killed them because he was just that good, not a guy who sometimes did based on team needs and who else they had.
Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyShoe1721
Here is Part 1 of the plan:
C/LW Fred Stanfield
He seems like a perfect linemate for Hyland on the 3rd line. A little bit of physicality, a decent two-way player, and a very strong playmaker to complement Hyland's goal scoring. I'm not sure what position he'll play yet, it depends upon who is available at my next pick to complement Hyland and Stanfield. He will also be playing the point on my 2nd PP instead of Leo Boivin in order to take advantage of his success on the PP in his career. This also may allow me to double shift Boivin on the PK, haven't decided yet.
I will have to take a closer look at Stanfield's assists and how many of them were from playing the point on the potent Bruins PP. It is possible that those assist rankings overrate his playmaking in terms of what it would be in the usual context - playing even strength shifts with his wingers.
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As for Hadfield, didn't he really have just one good season? Super tough though, I know.
Last edited by seventieslord: 02-21-2012 at 11:29 AM.
He did play in the All-Star game in 1965 and had 9 straight 20 goal seasons. It's better offense than most bottom-6 tough guys are going to provide
Yeah, I didn't look at your lineup to see where he was going to go. He is fine as a bottom 6 guy... as a top-6 guy... history has produced enough better players to keep him out of that role.
Dutton probably received most of his Hart votes for his leadership, which probably wouldn't weigh as heavily in the All-Star voting. I believe Lionel Conacher has a better record in Hart voting than in All-Star voting as well.
I think if we are to call someone an elite penalty killer, he should be a guy who always killed them because he was just that good, not a guy who sometimes did based on team needs and who else they had.
You probably don't think Henrik Zetterberg is an elite PKer either....
Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyShoe1721
His PPGA are very odd. They seem to fluctuate wildly from being very good, to barely killing any penalties at all:
From 67-68 to 80-81: 0, 3, 0, 13, 20, 18, 31, 25, 4, 1, 30, 2, 22, 8.
It really doesn't fluctuate as much if you only include seasons when he was a full-time NHLer. He played 81 TOTAL games between 1967-68 and 1969-70 (15, 30, 36) and only played 24 games in 1980-81. So if you only look at the decade when he was a full time NHLer, you have 13, 20, 18, 31, 25, 4, 1, 30, 2, 22 from 1970-71 to 1979-80. And his 8 SHGA in 24 games played in 1980-81 is actually quite good.
It's strange, I would have expected the two "down" seasons in the middle to correspond to his offensive peak when he was playing regularly with Guy Lafleur (and therefore obviously not used to kill penalties), but his big offensive years were 1975 and 1976, and if your stats are right, his "4, 1" years were 1976 and 1977.
I guess it depends on how much you want to look at peak - for the first half of the 70s, he was absolutely one of the elite penalty killers in the league. If I have time (I haven't done an original profile since Ted Lindsay), I'll try to see if Pete's lack of usage in certain years in the later half of the 70s was because he was given a more offensive role, because of injuries, or because he wasn't as effective at it anymore.
Last edited by seventieslord: 02-21-2012 at 11:30 AM.
75-76 would mark the debut of Jarvis, so a drop would be expected with Jarvis taking the #1 PK spot. Also, the 30 in 77-78, is 1 in 17 GP in Montreal, and 29 in 57 GP in Pittsburgh.
Wow.. the 31-32 finish is particularly impressive, considering he had only 8 points that season.
The other thing to consider is that at this point in history, the Hart Trophy may have been a "most valuable player to their team" sort of award, instead of the "best player in the league" like it is today.
Then again, maybe not. Dutton's teams finished basically last in both of those years. I really don't know what to say about it. The only explanation that makes any sort of sense is that he was playing a lot of different positions those years. He didn't miss any significant amount of games, and he was otherwise a rather unspectacular offensive player.
It seems as though back in the 1920-50's the Hart was awarded a lot more to the best player on a bad team.
At quick glance you see guys like: Worters, Goodfellow, Anderson, O'Connor, Rayner, Rollins and Bathgate all win the Hart for sub 500 teams.
I'm not 100% sure but it looks as though a HArt winner hasn't played on a sub 500 team since Bathgate in 1958-59.
Did the overall perception of the Hart change in the 1960's to what we see now?
Alll right no defenseman here really sparks my interest, so I'm going to pick up a coach. The guy leads his team to the Milt Dunnel Cup Finals last year and he falls about 20 spots, how does that happen??
At pick 392, I'll be selecting Dick Irvin Sr. as my coach and reuniting he and Doug Harvey. overpass did a pretty good bio on him last year. Particularly, I like this quote about Irvin in it:
Quote:
It was Irvin who established the traits that defined the Habs for decades to come: speed; depth; superb two-way skills for his forwards; aggressive checking from his defensemen; and superb goal-tending in the nets.
That idea pretty much encapsulates what I'm trying to do with this team, so he'll be a great fit for this squad.
I'd like to trade up (from 413 I believe) if anyone is looking to move down a bit.
Quote:
Originally Posted by vecens24
Alll right no defenseman here really sparks my interest, so I'm going to pick up a coach. The guy leads his team to the Milt Dunnel Cup Finals last year and he falls about 20 spots, how does that happen??
At pick 392, I'll be selecting Dick Irvin Sr. as my coach and reuniting he and Doug Harvey. overpass did a pretty good bio on him last year. Particularly, I like this quote about Irvin in it:
That idea pretty much encapsulates what I'm trying to do with this team, so he'll be a great fit for this squad.
Nolan and an undrafted were right behind Leach for me.
The case could easily be made that he is better than Leach and even better than some other power forwards drafted a while ago.
For example, I think Owen Nolan stacks up pretty well to Kevin Stevens. Kevin just playing in a more scarce position and having a better playoff resume largely due to team situation (and in this draft, built in chemistry with Lemieux).
The case could easily be made that he is better than Leach and even better than some other power forwards drafted a while ago.
For example, I think Owen Nolan stacks up pretty well to Kevin Stevens. Kevin just playing in a more scarce position and having a better playoff resume largely due to team situation (and in this draft, built in chemistry with Lemieux).
Man Nolan's best season (1999-2000) fell square in the middle of a RW explosion! The top scorers that year:
Do you plan on playing Nolan on the 1st PP? From what I remember Nolan was a PP goal scorer more than an EV performer but I might be wrong and I can't access HR right now for some reasons.
The case could easily be made that he is better than Leach and even better than some other power forwards drafted a while ago.
For example, I think Owen Nolan stacks up pretty well to Kevin Stevens. Kevin just playing in a more scarce position and having a better playoff resume largely due to team situation (and in this draft, built in chemistry with Lemieux).
Yeah, Nolan is a good pick here, as long as you're going to use his big shot on the powerplay. He was a solid two-way player in San Jose, and a real warrior with enough offensive talent to be dangerous if he's got a good playmaker with him. I don't think I'd use him on a line with Nels Stewart because I think that largely wastes his offensive talent, but he's an excellent third line finisher at 32 teams in this thing. One of the contemporary players (along with Boyle and until this draft the Alfie, Hossa, Elias group) who has been underrated in this thing because we lack somewhat in perspective on his career.
