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ATD 2012 - Draft Thread V

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Old
02-20-2012, 10:11 AM
  #601
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BenchBrawl View Post
Do you plan on playing Nolan on the 1st PP? what would be his role on the team?
His role has yet to be determined. It depends entirely on how the rest of te draft goes.

He could be additional puck-winning and muscle on one of the 1st two lines, or he could be a skilled ass-kicker on the 4th line.

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02-20-2012, 10:15 AM
  #602
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Nolan's biggest issue is that he was constantly banged up. He blew out his shoulder in Quebec/Colorado and had a long list of nagging injuries in San Jose, which tended to get worse as the season wore on, which is one of the reasons why his playoff numbers were always sort of meh. The one season when Owen was fully healthy in a Sharks uniform we saw what he could do.

The question with Nolan in the ATD is: do you try to baby him and get the most out of him offensively, or do you put him in a role to play a more physical game and accept that he's going to be dinged up once the playoffs roll around?

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02-20-2012, 10:15 AM
  #603
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Originally Posted by Sturminator View Post
Yeah, Nolan is a good pick here, as long as you're going to use his big shot on the powerplay. He was a solid two-way player in San Jose, and a real warrior with enough offensive talent to be dangerous if he's got a good playmaker with him. I don't think I'd use him on a line with Nels Stewart because I think that largely wastes his offensive talent, but he's an excellent third line finisher at 32 teams in this thing. One of the contemporary players (along with Boyle and until this draft the Alfie, Hossa, Elias group) who has been underrated in this thing because we lack somewhat in perspective on his career.
Nolan is at his best in the trenches and around the net. He's a lot better in close quarters than he is in open ice, and that's where the Alf Smith/Nels Stewart duo will do their damage as well.

You don't think Nolan would fit in well on a line that's going to stick it behind the other teams net, beat the crap out of you, and just try to smash the puck through everybody standing in front of the net?

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02-20-2012, 11:46 AM
  #604
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The Minnesota Fighting Saints are pleased to select, 396th overall, from Wilbraham Massachusetts, Bill Guerin, RW

Thus completing the Twin Cities Express. Naslund-Lemaire-Guerin.

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Originally Posted by Dreakmur View Post
Nolan is at his best in the trenches and around the net. He's a lot better in close quarters than he is in open ice, and that's where the Alf Smith/Nels Stewart duo will do their damage as well.

You don't think Nolan would fit in well on a line that's going to stick it behind the other teams net, beat the crap out of you, and just try to smash the puck through everybody standing in front of the net?
It's a lot of pressure on your defence to get the puck down low.

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Last edited by seventieslord: 02-21-2012 at 11:30 AM.
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02-20-2012, 12:11 PM
  #605
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Originally Posted by vecens24 View Post
Alll right no defenseman here really sparks my interest, so I'm going to pick up a coach. The guy leads his team to the Milt Dunnel Cup Finals last year and he falls about 20 spots, how does that happen??

At pick 392, I'll be selecting Dick Irvin Sr. as my coach and reuniting he and Doug Harvey. overpass did a pretty good bio on him last year. Particularly, I like this quote about Irvin in it:



That idea pretty much encapsulates what I'm trying to do with this team, so he'll be a great fit for this squad.

overpass' bio from last year: http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/sh...1&postcount=93
Surprised you didn't pick a more defensive-minded coach, considering the makeup of your team.

I went to an interesting party last night and just woke up. My pick will come eventually.

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02-20-2012, 12:12 PM
  #606
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nalyd Psycho View Post
It's a lot of pressure on your defence to get the puck down low.
Why is there pressure on our defense?

Quote:
Originally Posted by jarek View Post
ATD canon says without a playmaker, your line sucks.
That's why we picked Alf Smith, who was, according to the SIHR reconstuction project, one of the best playmakers of his era.


Last edited by seventieslord: 02-21-2012 at 11:31 AM.
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02-20-2012, 12:17 PM
  #607
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Originally Posted by Dreakmur View Post
That's why we picked Alf Smith, who was, according to the SIHR reconstuction project, one of the best playmakers of his era.
I see Alf Smith as a Bert Olmstead type player. He gets a lot of assists because he's great at digging the puck out of corners and getting it to more talented linemates, but I don't like him as the primary playmaker of an ATD line. That said, I don't think Nels Stewart really uses a playmaker, just guys to dig the puck out of corners and get it to him.

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02-20-2012, 12:19 PM
  #608
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From what I've read, Smith's tendency to mix things up sort of overshadowed that he was a very skilled player, at least from the anecdotes I've read.

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02-20-2012, 12:26 PM
  #609
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Originally Posted by Dreakmur View Post
Why is there pressure on our defense?
Because none of Smith-Stewart-Nolan is going to be overly effective in advancing through the neutral zone. They will be effective down low, but the book on them is dont let them get the puck down low.

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02-20-2012, 12:52 PM
  #610
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Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
Surprised you didn't pick a more defensive-minded coach, considering the makeup of your team.

I went to an interesting party last night and just woke up. My pick will come eventually.
I see Irvin as a more balanced guy, not necessarily a totally offensive guy. I think you know who my initial target was pretty well, however when Irvin fell to being the 8th (I believe) drafted coach I decided I really liked his value. He's honestly my 5th best coach ever so I went for it. Plus like I said he values a lot of what my team has: speedy, two way forwards, strong checking defenseman, and great goaltending. I like him to get the most out of my forwards.

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Originally Posted by Nalyd Psycho View Post
The Minnesota Fighting Saints are pleased to select, 396th overall, from Wilbraham Massachusetts, Bill Guerin, RW

Thus completing the Twin Cities Express. Naslund-Lemaire-Guerin.
I really wanted to take Billy Guerin to complete an all-American third line with him and Tkachuk/Roenick, but decided he didn't bring enough of a well-rounded offensive game. Good pick though.


Last edited by seventieslord: 02-21-2012 at 01:16 PM.
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Old
02-20-2012, 12:58 PM
  #611
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Originally Posted by Nalyd Psycho View Post
Because none of Smith-Stewart-Nolan is going to be overly effective in advancing through the neutral zone. They will be effective down low, but the book on them is dont let them get the puck down low.
There's a difference between getting the puck up ice and getting it in deep. I agree that our defense will be needed to move the puck up ice, but I think Lidstrom, Murphy, and Numminen are very capable in that regard.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
I see Alf Smith as a Bert Olmstead type player. He gets a lot of assists because he's great at digging the puck out of corners and getting it to more talented linemates, but I don't like him as the primary playmaker of an ATD line. That said, I don't think Nels Stewart really uses a playmaker, just guys to dig the puck out of corners and get it to him.
I think Alf Smith was definately good at mucking in the corner, but I also think he also had good speed and skills too. While he probably excells in the cornes, there's more to his game than just that.


Last edited by seventieslord: 02-21-2012 at 11:32 AM.
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Old
02-20-2012, 01:18 PM
  #612
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It seems that the ATD-GMs likes to reduce the players to some one-dimensional beings with their strengths. "Player X was great at that so it's all he can do on this level".

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02-20-2012, 01:21 PM
  #613
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Originally Posted by jkrx View Post
It seems that the ATD-GMs likes to reduce the players to some one-dimensional beings with their strengths. "Player X was great at that so it's all he can do on this level".
This is true to an extent (and is why a lot of GMs seem to prefer pure playmakers and pure shooters over more complete offensive players). Do you have any recent examples though? Are you talking about my characterization of Alf Smith?

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02-20-2012, 01:31 PM
  #614
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It seems that the ATD-GMs likes to reduce the players to some one-dimensional beings with their strengths. "Player X was great at that so it's all he can do on this level".
I think in this case it's more that three players all lack the same skill that is the problem.

Quote:
Originally Posted by vecens24 View Post
I really wanted to take Billy Guerin to complete an all-American third line with him and Tkachuk/Roenick, but decided he didn't bring enough of a well-rounded offensive game. Good pick though.
Yeah, I waited because all the line really needed was a big body presence with the skill to play second line hockey.


Last edited by seventieslord: 02-21-2012 at 11:32 AM.
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02-20-2012, 01:33 PM
  #615
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nalyd Psycho View Post
I think in this case it's more that three players all lack the same skill that is the problem.
Which skill is that?

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02-20-2012, 01:34 PM
  #616
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dreakmur View Post
Which skill is that?
puck carrying.

Quote:
Originally Posted by arrbez View Post
bow-staff skills
Nels Stewart actually frequently played Little John in community theatre.


Last edited by seventieslord: 02-21-2012 at 11:33 AM.
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Old
02-20-2012, 01:42 PM
  #617
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dreakmur View Post
Nolan is at his best in the trenches and around the net. He's a lot better in close quarters than he is in open ice, and that's where the Alf Smith/Nels Stewart duo will do their damage as well.

You don't think Nolan would fit in well on a line that's going to stick it behind the other teams net, beat the crap out of you, and just try to smash the puck through everybody standing in front of the net?
Nolan was also very good at getting himself open in the slot and banging the puck past the goalie. He had a huge slapshot in his prime. I think that skill would largely go to waste on a line with Smith and Stewart. Stewart may not need a pure playmaker to do his thing, but Nolan noticeably benefitted from having one when the Sharks finally got their acts together.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nalyd Psycho View Post
puck carrying.
I tend to agree that this is a line which could get bogged down at center ice. If Rögle had Bobby Orr I think we would all agree it doesn't matter, but normal teams do need the forwards to carry their weight in advancing the puck .


Last edited by seventieslord: 02-21-2012 at 11:34 AM.
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02-20-2012, 01:57 PM
  #618
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nalyd Psycho View Post
puck carrying.
Just because none of them are elite puck-carriers doesn't mean they all suck.

Nels Stewart doesn't have speed, but he's pretty much a beast in terms of controlling the puck. When Nels Stewart played defense, he played a rushing style, and was known to make many end-to-end rushes. Since, there were rules that resticted passing, he must have been able to carry the puck in a somewhat effective manner, right?

As I already said about Smith, he was known for speed and skill.

We all watched Nolan play, so we know he was a decent puck carrier too. He didn't have 1-on-1 moves, but he generally just went down the board and dared the defenseman to hit him.

Quote:
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I tend to agree that this is a line which could get bogged down at center ice. If Rögle had Bobby Orr I think we would all agree it doesn't matter, but normal teams do need the forwards to carry their weight in advancing the puck .
No Bobby Orr, but Lidstrom, Murphy, and Numminen are pretty solid puck-movers. They'll be able to give the fowards a boost into the offensive end.

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02-20-2012, 02:38 PM
  #619
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His active stick and gap control are also excellent.

Gord, this kid's the real deal! His compete level is through the roof!

Dave Smith, his peewee coach back in Moose Knuckle, Saskatchewan, stand up and take a bow, because this is a really special young man!

WELCOME TO THE BRYAN HEXTALL SHOW, FOLKS!


I really, really missed Pierre McGuire announcing the juniors. Not even kidding. It just wasn't the same this year.
bryan hextall really seems like the kind of player who gets it. he just gets it.


mcguire could be drafted as an assistant coach.

provides good comic relief, which would keep the players relaxed, and would greatly boost self esteem of the players. OTOH, there could be some problems if mcguire tells one of the players he looks like he could use a rubdown.

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I knew that was going to be your pick chaos. I was just looking through old draft threads to try to get more opinions on him as there really isn't a ton out there on Wally. I did find this article that is pretty recent on him though and it's hilarious.

http://www.thestar.com/news/insight/...ates-the-leafs
i read a marc mcneil column from 1942 which said that it was clear that the writers had overrated stanowski in 1941.

stanowski only appears once in all star voting after 1941.

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Dutton probably received most of his Hart votes for his leadership, which probably wouldn't weigh as heavily in the All-Star voting. I believe Lionel Conacher has a better record in Hart voting than in All-Star voting as well.
in '26, a player who played 0 games got a vote for hart purely for leadership.


value to his team seems to have been the main consideration for hart voting, which is probably why defensive d-men got so many votes in that era.

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Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
You probably don't think Henrik Zetterberg is an elite PKer either....
he may no longer be. his faceoff skills have declined (imo, partly b/c officials have cracked down on cheating and partly b/c of wrist injuries), and his skating is not as good as it was at his peak, probably b/c of back injuries.

this has been a recent area of discussion on DRW boards. we have also noticed that zetterberg's GA per 60 minutes have been increasing. his defensive awareness and positioning are still very good, but he does not control the play as he used to do, and is not as fast or dynamic as before (zetterberg was never fast, though).

i think zetterberg's wrist injury started in '09, which is one reason his '09 playoffs were especially impressive. both wrists were injured and he wore longer gloves to protect them.

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Leach is a one year wonder though , that's why he fell.

To his defense , it was a great year , both in the regular season and an amazing playoff run.
leach also had a 50g season in '80 and a 45g season in '75.

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Old
02-20-2012, 02:54 PM
  #620
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Swamp Devils pick a hard hitting defensive specialist who can play every forward position, Don Marcotte, F

Quote:
Originally Posted by wikipedia
was noted as a premier defensive forward, while being versatile enough to play any forward position.
  • Awarded a "Retroactive Selke" by Ultimate Hockey for 1976
  • 3rd in Selke voting to Bob Gainey and Craig Ramsey in 1978 (the first time the award was given out)
  • 2nd in Selke voting to Bob Gainey in 1979
  • Also received multiple Selke votes in 1980, 1981, 1982
  • 1979 Coach's poll: Selected the 2nd best defensive forward after Gainey and the 3rd best penalty killer after Gainey and Ramsay
  • Selected to play for the Canadian All Stars in the 1979 Challenge Cup

Quote:
Originally Posted by legends of hockey
Although listed as a left winger, he could play all three forward positions. He usually skated with Derek Sanderson and Ed Westfall in whose company he excelled as a great two-way player and penalty killer who could dish out bone-jarring hits. In 1970-71 he tallied six short-handed goals.

Marcotte's best season came in 1974-75 when he scored 31 goals and 33 assists during the regular season. He was also a strong playoff performer, netting 61 points in 132 post season outings.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bruins 1971-72 Yearbook
The records show that Don Marcotte scored 15 goals the past season ... What they don't show is that for the amount of time he got on the ice, Marcotte's goal scoring average matched anybody on the team, with the possible exception of Phil Esposito. Marcotte was the Bruins' trouble-shooter If Coach Tom Johnson needed somebody on the right wing, it was Marcotte . . . If it was the left side or center, same thing. Unfortunately for Don, the Bruins went so well, he wasn't needed that often . . But the hard-hitting forward proved his value as a seventh player who could come off the bench cold and spark the team. He also proved invaluable as a penalty-killer.. . Not only did he shackle the opposition but he himself scored six of his 15 goals while killing penalties
http://www.jwen.com/hock/bruins/dmarc.html

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Boston Globe, April 14, 2005
Just like the Energizer Bunny, he kept going and going and going.

A hard-nosed two-way player, Don Marcotte first skated with the Bruins in 1965 and retired with the Bruins after the 1982 season never lacing the skates up with another NHL organization. He bled Bruins blood, never let up and did whatever it took to win games.

“Everybody had different jobs to do and you had to do what you had to do," said Marcotte. "I was a two-way player and would go up and down. I would go up and forecheck and come back and backcheck. That kept me going and I loved it. I had a job to do and took a lot of pride in it.
...
Throughout his career playing in the NHL, Marcotte was known for his hard-hitting and penalty killing. He currently ranks sixth all-time in games played (868), ninth is seasons played (13) and tenth in goals (230).

“I am very proud for the style of play I played,” said Marcotte. “I called myself a two-way player. I thought hockey was played at both ends of the ice and that was the way I played the game.”

Marcotte was also a key member of two Stanley Cup Bruins teams (1969-70 and 1971-72).
http://www.boston.com/sports/hockey/...never_got_old/

From hfboards thread: Players who functioned as "Shadows"
Quote:
Originally Posted by LeBlondeDemon10 View Post
Don Marcotte was Lafleur's shadow for three seasons. The powerplay that resulted in Lafleur's famous goal was for too many men; Lafleur apparently went to the bench, but went back out right away. Marcotte followed as did another Bruin.
Quote:
Originally Posted by overpass View Post
To follow up a little on my last post, here is a list of the top penalty killing wingers of the last 40 years, as defined by those wingers who spent a lot of time killing penalties on effective PK units. I think this list is interesting in part because few wingers have actually spent a lot of time killing penalties - usually centres and defencemen have a larger role.

PKTime=an approximation of the number of season equivalents of shorthanded ice time that the player played. Calculated by sum of (PlayerPGA/TeamPGA).

TeamPK+=strength of the penalty kill units for which the player played. 1 is average, lower is better. 0.80 means that the unit allowed goals at 80% of a league average rate. Calculated by 1-(TmPGA -TmSHGF)/TmTSH, with each season weighted by the players PKTime.

Best penalty killing wingers by the numbers, 1968-2010
Player PKTime TeamPK+
Craig Ramsay 7.96 0.77
Ed Westfall 7.68 0.80
Bob Gainey 6.58 0.83
Don Marcotte 5.39 0.80
XXX 6.16 0.85
Bill Barber 3.71 0.80
XXX 4.48 0.86
Jari Kurri 4.14 0.86
XXX 4.87 0.88
XXX 4.92 0.89

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02-20-2012, 03:00 PM
  #621
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Reading one of Don Cherry's books recently...he said he didn't like to match lines with a checking line, he'd rather put a good defensive forward on each line and roll lines. But if he wanted a checking line he could move Don Marcotte to any line and it would be a checking line.

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02-20-2012, 03:10 PM
  #622
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Pittsburgh will take two-way winger and PK ace RW Bob Nevin

Link to 70s bio:http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/sh...&postcount=235

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02-20-2012, 03:13 PM
  #623
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
This is true to an extent (and is why a lot of GMs seem to prefer pure playmakers and pure shooters over more complete offensive players). Do you have any recent examples though? Are you talking about my characterization of Alf Smith?
I'm speaking in general even if the characterization of Alf sparked it. We have the Kovalchuk spectacle where he was reduced to a player who can only carry the puck and shoot it which is his strength but not all he can do.

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02-20-2012, 03:21 PM
  #624
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jkrx View Post
I'm speaking in general even if the characterization of Alf sparked it. We have the Kovalchuk spectacle where he was reduced to a player who can only carry the puck and shoot it which is his strength but not all he can do.
What part of the characterization of Alf Smith do you disagree with? He was one of the more prominent players of his day - have you ever seen a description of him skating the puck up ice and dishing it to a teammate? I haven't. I've seen quite a bit about him digging the puck out of corners and getting it to either Frank McGee or Marty Walsh at center.

As for Kovalchuk, are you disagreeing that for most of his career, once he gets the puck in the defensive zone, he puts the blinders on and skates it up ice Bobby Hull style? That when he and Heatley played together in Atlanta, Heatley was the one who got the better linemates including the playmaking center because he worked well with playmakers, while Kovalchuk didn't use his linemates that much, as he played a style that was more "do it himself"?

I think Kovalchuk is an excellent passer, but his vision is very poor. He might have the worst vision I've ever seen from a player with such physical gifts.

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02-20-2012, 03:24 PM
  #625
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stoneberg View Post
I was heavily considering Marcotte when I picked Marshall 40+ picks ago, wouldn't have minded adding him to an all Don line either if he made it to my next pick.

Still looking to trade up from 413 for an upcoming pick, will include pick 420 as well.
Marshall has more offensive upside than Marcotte, but Marcotte is useful in that he can play all three forward positions.

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