For the second consecutive year, Roy Worters, wee goalie of the Pittsburgh Pirates, is placed in the all-star nets. Worters polled seven votes for first team and one for second.
Worters finished 3rd in all-star voting in 1931, ahead of Hainsworth. Worters finished 2nd in all-star voting in 1932, ahead of Hainsworth. Worters finished 3rd in all-star voting in 1933, ahead of Hainsworth. Worters finished 2nd in all-star voting in 1934, ahead of Hainsworth. Worters finished 3rd in all-star voting in 1935, ahead of Hainsworth. Worters finished 5th in all-star voting in 1936, one vote behind Hainsworth.
Worters won a Hart in 1929. He finished 2nd in Hart voting in 1928. He finished tied for 4th in Hart voting in 1926. He finished 5th in Hart voting in 1934. He finished tied for 10th in Hart voting in 1927. Hainsworth does not appear in published Hart voting results uncovered so far.
Worters was also 5 years younger then Hainsworth (who was in his late 30's during all of this.)
Heres another quote after the 40 year old Hainsworth retired:
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Proud of the record that established him as one of the most consistent goalies of all time, Hainsworth will not likely move down to a minor league club. Leafs will carry only one goalie so hockey may soon see the passing of one of the greatest little guys that ever donned pads
Writers from saskatoon calling him one of the greatest goalies in hockey history. Obviously he played well during his late 20's in Saskatoon:
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Plus the speed and deftness to turn aside flying rubber and the brains to outguess onrushing forwards. The combination made him one of the greatest goalies in hockey history, and his net-minding feats, in this city (Saskatoon) and in Eastern Canada will be remembered long after his untimely death
Ellis was counted on to kill penalties and check the opposition's top forwards both in the NHL and with Team Canada in 1972.
I call shenanigans. We have PPGA statistics for Ellis for 12 of his 16 seasons, and his highest season of usage was 34.7%. Here are his PPGA totals for his career from 67-68 to 80-81: 5, 2, 8, 7, 3, 17, 4, 14, 16, 3, 24, 12. And for the years we don't have it, I think it's safe to assume he didn't kill many penalties because his PPGA totals are low for the years right after that.
I call shenanigans. We have PPGA statistics for Ellis for 12 of his 16 seasons, and his highest season of usage was 34.7%. Here are his PPGA totals for his career from 67-68 to 80-81: 5, 2, 8, 7, 3, 17, 4, 14, 16, 3, 24, 12. And for the years we don't have it, I think it's safe to assume he didn't kill many penalties because his PPGA totals are low for the years right after that.
I'll be honest, I don't get using exclusively PPGA to rate how much someone was killing powerplays.
The better they were at it the lower the amount of time you'd estimate they had been doing it.
Haha of course. I know it seems like overkill but there is just so much information on Hainsworth that has not been mentioned till this ATD.
For starters I know several GM's didnt even know he held the record for consecutive shutout streaks in the playoffs or that he even had a retro Conn Smythe.
I saw several GM's say he did nothing while playing for Toronto and yet there are multiple quotes showing how good he played, and how he led them to Cup finals.
If you know that they were definitely 1st PK unit players you wouldn't need the numbers in the first place.
I was talking about the comparables. For example, if you know a defenseman was a 1st PK unit for sure, if a forward you are unsure about has a lot less PPGA, then he probably wasn't one of their top PKers
I call shenanigans. We have PPGA statistics for Ellis for 12 of his 16 seasons, and his highest season of usage was 34.7%. Here are his PPGA totals for his career from 67-68 to 80-81: 5, 2, 8, 7, 3, 17, 4, 14, 16, 3, 24, 12. And for the years we don't have it, I twhink it's safe to assume he didn't kill many penalties because his PPGA totals are low for the years right after that.
I'm saying he was used on the pk by both the Leafs and team Canada...which is true. What are the shenanigans?
I can provide evidence later today if you don't believe it happened.
I don't recall calling him a superstar PKer, just stating that he did it. I even have a quote at home talking about how Ellis's pk ability made bathgate expendable at the end of his Toronto stint. There is actually quite a bit talking about him PKing in his early years, although he was obviously second unit behind keon and pulford (and why wouldn't he be?)
I'll be honest, I don't get using exclusively PPGA to rate how much someone was killing powerplays.
The better they were at it the lower the amount of time you'd estimate they had been doing it.
Sure. If a player has high PPGA in one season and his team has a bad penalty kill, he may have just been a bad penalty killer.
But if he keeps getting sent out year after year he must have been doing something right. Especially if his team is getting good results.
Although I think Ron Ellis was a good penalty killer, as far as I know. Other guys on his team may have been used more often in that role, but that doesn't mean he wasn't a capable PK player.
made a quick Phil Goyette bio , you won't learn anything new if you know him but just covered the basics.
Updated the Bryan Hextall Sr. bio , you can learn some new things as I don't think anybody found that much about him.It's not an extremely long bio but it's a good one imo.
Linked Elias' HR page in the roster thread until I feel I really need to make a bio for him.If TDMM has some good quotes or just knows where I can find articles between the millions of useless ones in google news I might make one for Elias.
Not a bad comparison, but then ask yourself, what else could Elliott possibly do this year? He is playing amazing and leads the league in GAA and save %. It is a lot easier for a goalie like Worters to get praise playing for a terrible team then it is Hainsworth getting praise playing for a great team.
Also I assume you only mean Elliott for this year, i'm only leery of your comparison because of Halak. Yes his numbers are a little worse then Elliott, but he has been playing amazing recently as well and i'm not sure that another goalie could of formed a tandem like this with Hainsworth.
My point about Elliott is precisely that he's playing way in over his head in terms of what he's actually capable of playing for pretty much any other team. St. Louis plays a stifling defensive system, as evidenced by their far and away league leading 26.2 shots against per game (and it would likely be much lower if Hitchcock was hired sooner). The shutouts their goalies get are consistently of the 10-20 shot varieties. I do believe Halak is a much better goalie than Elliott (and he showed it the last few months or so), but I believe any goalie can succeed behind a system where the coach dreams of winning a game 0 to -1.
What's happening this year is precisely why stats need context. Elliott leads the league in GAA and S%, yet I don't have him as a Vezina finalist this year. I have at least Lundqvist (single handedly leading his team to an Eastern Conference title), Quick (single handedly leading his team to not have a lottery pick) and Howard (huge bounce back year, a pretty important piece of Detroit's success) ahead of him. Maybe even Tim Thomas, but he's shat the bed lately.
Suppose Hainsworth played behind a team that allows as few scoring chances as this year's Blues during his Montreal days (and the AST/Hart voting suggests this). Suddenly his stats seem to make a little more sense, yes?
I'm not disputing that Hainsworth is a good goalie.. he is, you've shown that. But I think the actual truth of how good he really is is somewhere in between his Toronto days and his pre-forward passing days, and likely closer to the Toronto days than the Montreal days.
mark I'm not exactly a fan of you trotting out Hainsworth's age either as an excuse. The guy's rookie WCHL year was when he was 28, so clearly he's going to be older than Worters pretty much across the board. Their rookie NHL seasons were only a year apart (with Worters' actually coming first).
I'm not saying it may not make a difference, but much in the way that we can't extrapolate out for what, say Crosby or Malkin are going to do with the rest of their careers, we can't extrapolate back and say what Hainsworth would have done with his.
mark I'm not exactly a fan of you trotting out Hainsworth's age either as an excuse. The guy's rookie WCHL year was when he was 28, so clearly he's going to be older than Worters pretty much across the board. Their rookie NHL seasons were only a year apart (with Worters' actually coming first).
I'm not saying it may not make a difference, but much in the way that we can't extrapolate out for what, say Crosby or Malkin are going to do with the rest of their careers, we can't extrapolate back and say what Hainsworth would have done with his.
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Originally Posted by jarek
My point about Elliott is precisely that he's playing way in over his head in terms of what he's actually capable of playing for pretty much any other team. St. Louis plays a stifling defensive system, as evidenced by their far and away league leading 26.2 shots against per game (and it would likely be much lower if Hitchcock was hired sooner). The shutouts their goalies get are consistently of the 10-20 shot varieties. I do believe Halak is a much better goalie than Elliott (and he showed it the last few months or so), but I believe any goalie can succeed behind a system where the coach dreams of winning a game 0 to -1.
What's happening this year is precisely why stats need context. Elliott leads the league in GAA and S%, yet I don't have him as a Vezina finalist this year. I have at least Lundqvist (single handedly leading his team to an Eastern Conference title), Quick (single handedly leading his team to not have a lottery pick) and Howard (huge bounce back year, a pretty important piece of Detroit's success) ahead of him. Maybe even Tim Thomas, but he's shat the bed lately.
Suppose Hainsworth played behind a team that allows as few scoring chances as this year's Blues during his Montreal days (and the AST/Hart voting suggests this). Suddenly his stats seem to make a little more sense, yes?
I'm not disputing that Hainsworth is a good goalie.. he is, you've shown that. But I think the actual truth of how good he really is is somewhere in between his Toronto days and his pre-forward passing days, and likely closer to the Toronto days than the Montreal days.
Take a look at the recent articles i've posted from several different publications from in 1920's-1930's, if those aren't good enough, then im unable to produce anything else.
Jarek do you have any comment on how the Flyers would have influenced Parent. We have proof of this, Wayne Stephenson took the starting job away from Parent during two seperate playoffs and was also a 2x All star.
Why no mention of this?
why do you consistently discredit Hainsworth for playing on a good Montreal team, but have said nothing about Stephenson taking the starting job from Parent in both those playoffs and Parent falling off in the Playoffs after their second cup win (BC questioned this as well in the other thread and nobody had any answer)
Laprade was inducted to the HHOF mostly based off his defensive ability, but he does have some offensive upside, finishing top 20 in NHL points 4 times. Twice he was voted MVP of the Rangers.
It seems some GMs around here think that Laprade can't handle large forwards because of his average size and Lady Byng Trophy. But I think this is erroneous. Laprade didn't join the NHL until after World War 2 at the age of 26. Prior to joining the NHL, he got a lot of press for frustrating the very physical Milt Schmidt and the Kraut line in the Allan Cup playoffs in 1942. This was peak Kraut Line too - they had spent the first half of the 1941-42 season in the NHL before joining the the Army (where they were allowed to compete for the Allan Cup later that season).
Indeed, there's reason to believe that Laprade is the last North American player for whom non-NHL accomplishments are a big part of his HHOF resume - during World War 2, players who had left the NHL for the war were allowed to compete in the Allan Cup, so it was quite a big deal.
is that really upside though in the ATD level? Not diminishing Laprade at all , but his offense in the ATD will be close to none-existant isn't it?
Finishing 12th in the NHL in scoring while finishing 1st on your team is non-existent now?
Just scanning other checking centers, it's a lot better than Joel Otto and Doug Jarvis, and probably better than Guy Carbonneau, Dave Poulin, Derek Sanderson, Bob Bourne, Butch Goring, Mike Peca, Don Luce. Possibly better than Ken Mosdell, depending on how much you want to credit Maurice Richard and Bert Olmstead for Mosdell's 2 outlier great seasons. Possibly better than Ralph Backstrom, depending on how much you think he was held back by his team situation. I realize this isn't a whose-who list of offensive talent, but I'll gladly take a 3rd line that can chip in points on the counter-attack over one that won't. I would take some (not all) of those guys over Laprade, because some of them bring even better defense, some bring bodychecking (which he doesn't), but I think he's clearly a better offensive player than most of them (while also bringing very good defense).
I think Laprade might be a better offensive player than your Claude Provost, who was only a factor offensively when he was put on Henri Richard's line.
Last edited by TheDevilMadeMe: 02-21-2012 at 01:48 PM.
Reason: might be better than provost. hard to tell for sure
Lehman gave up a rather infamous goal to end the series one of the times Vancouver ran into those Sens teams, though. It was Esposito-like. I don't have time to dig up the newspaper report right now, but I uncovered it last draft while researching him.
They were apparently screened shots, but they were apparently also bad goals (bad enough that people were still telling tall tales about it 15 years later). It should be noted that Ottawa won an exceptionally tight Cup Finals series that year, three games to two, with all of the games being one goal games. If Lehman doesn't give up those two goals, Vancouver likely wins the Cup.
Well, Tony-O is one of the best goalies of all time, so I have no problem with that comparison.
And if screened shots are a problem, good thing I've got one of the biggest crease clearingest defences in the ATD.
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[QUOTE=TheDevilMadeMe;44563641]Finishing 12th in the NHL in scoring while finishing 1st on your team is non-existent now?
Just scanning other checking centers, it's a lot better than Joel Otto and Doug Jarvis, and probably better than Guy Carbonneau, Dave Poulin, Derek Sanderson, Bob Bourne, Butch Goring, Mike Peca, Don Luce. Possibly better than Ken Mosdell, depending on how much you want to credit Maurice Richard and Bert Olmstead for Mosdell's 2 outlier great seasons. Possibly better than Ralph Backstrom, depending on how much you think he was held back by his team situation. I realize this isn't a whose-who list of offensive talent, but I'll gladly take a 3rd line that can chip in points on the counter-attack over one that won't.
I think Laprade is a better offensive player than your Claude Provost, who was only a factor offensively when he was put on Henri Richard's line.[/QUOTE]
That's just a ridiculous way to put it.Provost proved he could provide offense if needed , Laprade didn't.Way to twist reality to your conveniance !
mark I'm not exactly a fan of you trotting out Hainsworth's age either as an excuse. The guy's rookie WCHL year was when he was 28, so clearly he's going to be older than Worters pretty much across the board. Their rookie NHL seasons were only a year apart (with Worters' actually coming first).
I'm not saying it may not make a difference, but much in the way that we can't extrapolate out for what, say Crosby or Malkin are going to do with the rest of their careers, we can't extrapolate back and say what Hainsworth would have done with his.
The thing is, Hainsworth DID have a pre-rookie career. Much like Bower, he starred in a lesser pro league. I'm disappointed mark hasn't aggressively looked into that.
