I would like to point out that a mistake was made in the Norris thread about my defenseman Barry Beck , who didn't finished 6th in 83-84 but 9th (8th in AST.)
NORRIS VOTING:
1.Denis Potvin, NYI 155
2. Brad Park, Bos 135
3. Larry Robinson, Mtl 85
4. Borje Salming, Tor 84
5. Guy Lapointe, Mtl 8 6. Barry Beck, Col 6
AST VOTING: Denis Potvin 226; Brad Park 201; Larry Robinson 200; Borje Salming 166; Serge Savard 64; Barry Beck 37; Guy LaPointe 26
1978-1979
NORRIS VOTING: (459/459) Denis Potvin, NYI 228; Larry Robinson, Mtl 83; Borje Salming, Tor 65; Serge Savard, Mtl 41; Guy Lapointe, Mtl 12; Robert Picard, Wsh 9; Barry Beck, Col 7;
AST VOTING: (918/918) Denis Potvin, NYI 249; Larry Robinson, Mtl 196; Borje Salming, Tor 157; Serge Savard, Mtl 111; Barry Beck, Col 39; Guy Lapointe, Mtl 36
1979-1980
NORRIS: (566/567)
1. Larry Robinson, Mtl 239
2. Borje Salming, Tor 117
3. Jim Schoenfeld, Buf 85
4. Ray Bourque, Bos 51
5. Mark Howe, Hfd 23 6. Barry Beck, NYR 12
7. Denis Potvin, NYI 10
8. Doug Wilson, Chi 7
AST VOTING:Larry Robinson 280; Ray Bourque 183; Borje Salming 179; Jim Schoenfeld 134; Mark Howe 102; Barry Beck 51; Denis Potvin 22; Doug Wilson 20; Ron Stack house 18
1981-1982
HART VOTING:HART: (567/567, 63-63-63) Wayne Gretzky 315 (63-0-0); Bryan Trottier 130 (0-41-7); Mike Bossy 34 (0-10-4); Peter Stastny 15 (0-2-9); Dale Hawerchuk 13 (0-2-7); Barry Beck 10 (0-3-1);
NORRIS VOTING: Doug Wilson 177 (29-8-8); Ray Bourque 80 (8-10-10); Paul Coffey 55 (4-7-14); Craig Hartsburg 54 (7-5-4); Larry Robinson 50 (4-9-3); Brian Engblom 31 (0-8-7); Barry Beck 28 (3-3-4);
1983-1984
NORRIS: (558/558, 62-62-62) Rod Langway 227 (37-11-9); Paul Coffey 126 (12-18-12); Ray Bourque 120 (9-20-15); Denis Potvin 66 (4-9-19); Phil Housley 4 (0-1-1); Charlie Huddy 3 (0-1-0); Mike O’Connell 3 (0-1-0); Scott Stevens 3 (0-1-0); Barry Beck 2 (0-0-2); Mario Marois 1 (0-0-1); Mark Howe 1 (0-0-1); Mike Ramsey 1 (0-0-1); Ken Morrow 1 (0-0-1
DEFENSE AST VOTING: (1116/1116) Rod Langway 285; Ray Bourque 232; Paul Coffey 226; Denis Potvin 189; Phil Housley 38; Mike Ramsey 32; Scott Stevens 23; Barry Beck 18; Mark Howe 17
Finishing 12th in the NHL in scoring while finishing 1st on your team is non-existent now?
Just scanning other checking centers, it's a lot better than Joel Otto and Doug Jarvis, and probably better than Guy Carbonneau, Dave Poulin, Derek Sanderson, Bob Bourne, Butch Goring, Mike Peca, Don Luce. Possibly better than Ken Mosdell, depending on how much you want to credit Maurice Richard and Bert Olmstead for Mosdell's 2 outlier great seaosns. Possibly better than Ralph Backstrom, depending on how much you think he was held back by his team situation. I realize this isn't a whose-who list of offensive talent, but I'll gladly take a 3rd line that can chip in points on the counter-attack over one that won't.
I think Laprade is a better offensive player than your Claude Provost, who was only a factor offensively when he was put on Henri Richard's line.
Yup, I think everything needs to be looked at relatively.
Of the checking liners taken so far, Bob Gainey is perhaps the worst offensively (not that it matters in his case). I'd say Laprade was significantly better than Gainey, which isn't necessarily saying much, but it does say that Laprade isn't an absolute zero offensively if there are guys out there who were much worse than he was.
Guys like Laprade won't be gamebreakers offensively, but he was solid enough offensively for long enough that you can probably count on him for some production in any given series. Certainly more than a number of guys who'll be playing on checking lines.
Finishing 12th in the NHL in scoring while finishing 1st on your team is non-existent now?
Just scanning other checking centers, it's a lot better than Joel Otto and Doug Jarvis, and probably better than Guy Carbonneau, Dave Poulin, Derek Sanderson, Bob Bourne, Butch Goring, Mike Peca, Don Luce. Possibly better than Ken Mosdell, depending on how much you want to credit Maurice Richard and Bert Olmstead for Mosdell's 2 outlier great seasons. Possibly better than Ralph Backstrom, depending on how much you think he was held back by his team situation. I realize this isn't a whose-who list of offensive talent, but I'll gladly take a 3rd line that can chip in points on the counter-attack over one that won't. I would take some (not all) of those guys over Laprade, because some of them bring even better defense, some bring bodychecking (which he doesn't), but I think he's clearly a better offensive player than most of them (while also bringing very good defense).
I think Laprade might be a better offensive player than your Claude Provost, who was only a factor offensively when he was put on Henri Richard's line.
I think you have to hold these things as relative. Being his teams best player, Laprade would have gotten a lot of power play time. So is it fair to say he's better offensively than say, Dave Poulin who got three times more shorthanded goals than power play goals? You are correct in saying his offence is not non-existent, but I'm not sure we can safely say he's better than other checking liners when he was not effected by the limitations of being a checking liner in his career, like Otto or Peca were.
__________________
Every post comes with the Nalyd Psycho Seal of Approval.
Take a look at the recent articles i've posted from several different publications from in 1920's-1930's, if those aren't good enough, then im unable to produce anything else.
Jarek do you have any comment on how the Flyers would have influenced Parent. We have proof of this, Wayne Stephenson took the starting job away from Parent during two seperate playoffs and was also a 2x All star.
Why no mention of this?
why do you consistently discredit Hainsworth for playing on a good Montreal team, but have said nothing about Stephenson taking the starting job from Parent in both those playoffs and Parent falling off in the Playoffs after their second cup win (BC questioned this as well in the other thread and nobody had any answer)
I didn't mention it because I was not aware of it. Yes, that is a good point to bring up.
Take a look at Hainsworth's career. He had 2 very outstanding seasons (I won't even call them outliers, but I think they are), 1 very strong season, and then a bunch of solid seasons. All of his better than solid seasons came during the pre-forward pass era. Now, obviously Hainsworth had a hand in the NHL changing the rules to allow forward passing, but nobody has ever claimed that he was the sole reason for it.
I don't think it's such a bad thing to assume that "peak" Hainsworth is somewhere around a (taking era context into consideration) 1.8-2.0 GAA, 8-10 shutout goaltender. I give credit to his early Montreal years, but it's just so hard to take them totally at face value because he had such a strong team in front of him, and EVERY goalie's stats were positively affected by no forward passing, not just Hainsworth.. and I think every goalie was affected just as equally when forward passing was allowed. I'd love to see you prove otherwise, however.
I'll just do a quick glance at shutouts. Hainsworth's first season had him get 14 (tops in the NHL), then the next best were 13, 13, 10, 8. Not too far behind. The following season, Hainsworth had 13, good for 2nd behind Winkler and Connell, and two others had 11 each. Next season, Hainsworth had a grossly NHL leading 22.
In Hainsworth's career, only twice did he lead the league in shutouts, and only once was it by a lot. Every other year, the top guys were relatively close in shutouts. If we do the exact same study on Hainsworth's GAA, I imagine it would likely turn up the same sort of results, with Hainsworth's 1 big season being an outlier among them all. In fact, I think Hainsworth only had ONE season where he was far and away the best goaltender in the entire league, and the rest of his career, he was AMONG the best, but not head and shoulders above anyone else.
As for your quotes, they are good, but I imagine if I dug enough, I could find the same types of quotes for other goaltenders as well. "He stole the game".. "without xxx, they'd be lost".. etc. Find contemporary sources that call Hainsworth indisputably the best goaltender of the time (and this exists for other goalies of that era, so if someone thought the same of Hainsworth, you should be able to find it), and then we can treat him as such. Until then, can you really blame people for scratching their heads over his lack of AST and Hart voting? He played behind a very strong team that made him look a little better than he was (and this is not a sleight on him), and we know this because if you look at the rest of his career, he only ever really had one huge season, and was otherwise basically par with the best beyond that, but with the benefit of playing behind a stacked team.
So, in short, Hainsworth was a good goalie, probably an all-time great, but not the best of his era.
Possibly better than Ralph Backstrom, depending on how much you think he was held back by his team situation.
While I agree with you that Laprade's offense is pretty good for a checkinliner, this is nonsense. In no way is he in Backstrom's league offensively.
Quote:
I think Laprade might be a better offensive player than your Claude Provost, who was only a factor offensively when he was put on Henri Richard's line.
Provost became a bigger scorer mainly because he was asked to score more when the Habs had a lull in scoringline quality (largely because Richard was hurt), and he outscored Richard in both of his best scoring seasons. Laprade was a decent offensive player, but for most of his career, he didn't seperate himself from his own teammates, all of whom were pretty meh offensively. I think you're reaching here.
I think you have to hold these things as relative. Being his teams best player, Laprade would have gotten a lot of power play time. So is it fair to say he's better offensively than say, Dave Poulin who got three times more shorthanded goals than power play goals? You are correct in saying his offence is not non-existent, but I'm not sure we can safely say he's better than other checking liners when he was not effected by the limitations of being a checking liner in his career, like Otto or Peca were.
Agreed, a lot depends on what was asked of the checking line player.
A guy who was a third liner his whole career and excelling purely in that defensive role is not going to have an top-whatever finishes but that doesn't necessarily reflect on his ability.
Just that he was played to his strengths. Obviously team depth has a lot to do with the opportunities too. Bob Gainey is a perfect example. If you have the luxury of saving Bob Gainey to play the hard minutes against the other teams best players while letting Shutt and Lafleur etc. take the offensive opportunities.. you do!
When we're talking about the offensive of checking line guys, especially those who will be in those roles in the ATD, I think we're really splitting hairs a bit anyways.
The thing is, Hainsworth DID have a pre-rookie career. Much like Bower, he starred in a lesser pro league. I'm disappointed mark hasn't aggressively looked into that.
I've already provided a couple quotes on this. For starters Lalonde and Vezina both hand picked Hainsworth to take over for Vezina.
Also there are multiple quotes like this:
Quote:
Plus the speed and deftness to turn aside flying rubber and the brains to outguess onrushing forwards. The combination made him one of the greatest goalies in hockey history, and his net-minding feats, in this city (Saskatoon) and in Eastern Canada will be remembered long after his untimely death
Stating that Hainsworth was one of the greatest goalies in hockey history.
Also Hainsworth signed the most expenisve contract for a goaltender at that time while playing for Montreal.
I've listed in the HOH every one of Hainsworths seasons starting with the Sr Ontario stats and bolded every category he led in.
An interesting stat is that Hainsworth led at least one goaltending stat for 25 straight years.
But remember that Laprade didn't join the NHL until the age of 26 and was a very effective hockey player before then (doing very well for himself against the Kraut Line in the Allan Cup after they had left for war). This is what their VS2 Scores from the age of 26 on look like:
As far as I remember most of his goals came from playing with Richard and not Goyette.
Provost's best offensive seasons were spent split between Henri and Backstrom (Henri was injured both seasons). As far as I know, he never spent meaningful time with Goyette.
While I agree with you that Laprade's offense is pretty good for a checkinliner, this is nonsense. In no way is he in Backstrom's league offensively
You're right. I just checked Backstrom's numbers and I was underrating his offense... by a lot.
Quote:
Provost became a bigger scorer mainly because he was asked to score more when the Habs had a lull in scoringline quality (largely because Richard was hurt), and he outscored Richard in both of his best scoring seasons. Laprade was a decent offensive player, but for most of his career, he didn't seperate himself from his own teammates, all of whom were pretty meh offensively. I think you're reaching here.
When did Provost play with Henri Richard? I agree that the greater power play time Laprade got is a factor, and it probably completely cancels the linemate effects.
When we're talking about the offensive of checking line guys, especially those who will be in those roles in the ATD, I think we're really splitting hairs a bit anyways.
I guess it was just "splitting hairs" when the Canadien Olympic Committee invited certain 3rd liners to play with the team (especially in 1998), rather than guys who could play in a 3rd line role but also contribute something offensively?
Edit: Laprade played in a 6 team league. Guys like Peca and Poulin would likely have fewer offensive opportunities in a 6 team league, not more.
I didn't mention it because I was not aware of it. Yes, that is a good point to bring up.
Take a look at Hainsworth's career. He had 2 very outstanding seasons (I won't even call them outliers, but I think they are), 1 very strong season, and then a bunch of solid seasons. All of his better than solid seasons came during the pre-forward pass era. Now, obviously Hainsworth had a hand in the NHL changing the rules to allow forward passing, but nobody has ever claimed that he was the sole reason for it.
I don't think it's such a bad thing to assume that "peak" Hainsworth is somewhere around a (taking era context into consideration) 1.8-2.0 GAA, 8-10 shutout goaltender. I give credit to his early Montreal years, but it's just so hard to take them totally at face value because he had such a strong team in front of him, and EVERY goalie's stats were positively affected by no forward passing, not just Hainsworth.. and I think every goalie was affected just as equally when forward passing was allowed. I'd love to see you prove otherwise, however.
I'll just do a quick glance at shutouts. Hainsworth's first season had him get 14 (tops in the NHL), then the next best were 13, 13, 10, 8. Not too far behind. The following season, Hainsworth had 13, good for 2nd behind Winkler and Connell, and two others had 11 each. Next season, Hainsworth had a grossly NHL leading 22.
In Hainsworth's career, only twice did he lead the league in shutouts, and only once was it by a lot. Every other year, the top guys were relatively close in shutouts. If we do the exact same study on Hainsworth's GAA, I imagine it would likely turn up the same sort of results, with Hainsworth's 1 big season being an outlier among them all. In fact, I think Hainsworth only had ONE season where he was far and away the best goaltender in the entire league, and the rest of his career, he was AMONG the best, but not head and shoulders above anyone else.
As for your quotes, they are good, but I imagine if I dug enough, I could find the same types of quotes for other goaltenders as well. "He stole the game".. "without xxx, they'd be lost".. etc. Find contemporary sources that call Hainsworth indisputably the best goaltender of the time (and this exists for other goalies of that era, so if someone thought the same of Hainsworth, you should be able to find it), and then we can treat him as such. Until then, can you really blame people for scratching their heads over his lack of AST and Hart voting? He played behind a very strong team that made him look a little better than he was (and this is not a sleight on him), and we know this because if you look at the rest of his career, he only ever really had one huge season, and was otherwise basically par with the best beyond that, but with the benefit of playing behind a stacked team.
So, in short, Hainsworth was a good goalie, probably an all-time great, but not the best of his era.
Again all of this brings me back to the Parent comparison. Also i'm not trying to diminish Roy Worters he obviously had the great Hart record.
What people are not understanding is that the Hart voting was voted upon differently back then and like you've already said on LC is that Haisnworth would have had Hart votes taken aay from guys like Morenz.
Worters has the obvious Hart voting advantage yes, unfortunately for him this is the ATD and he didn't prove that he could win in the playoffs. Hainsworth has the decisive edge as a winner.
While I agree with you that Laprade's offense is pretty good for a checkinliner, this is nonsense. In no way is he in Backstrom's league offensively.
Provost became a bigger scorer mainly because he was asked to score more when the Habs had a lull in scoringline quality (largely because Richard was hurt), and he outscored Richard in both of his best scoring seasons. Laprade was a decent offensive player, but for most of his career, he didn't seperate himself from his own teammates, all of whom were pretty meh offensively. I think you're reaching here.
I'll post the info I sent to 70s on Provost, with undrafted players XXX'd.
All numbers from the Hockey Summary Project boxscores. Even strength points only. Listed with season, Provost's # of even strength points, and then forwards and the # of points they were in on together with Provost in that season. I listed all forwards in descending order until I hit a defenceman.
1955-56 28
Ken Mosdell 12
XXX 12
XXX 7
1956-57 25
XXX 11
Bert Olmstead 7
Jean Beliveau 6
Don Marshall 6
XXX 4
1957-58 47
Phil Goyette 30
XXX 21
XXX 8
1958-59 35
Phil Goyette 19
XXX 13
Jean Beliveau 4
XXX 4
Don Marshall 4
1959-60 42
Phil Goyette 31
XXX 20
XXX 5
1961-62 48
Henri Richard 26
Dickie Moore 13
XXX 13
1962-63 43
Henri Richard 28
Dickie Moore 25
Phil Goyette 5
1963-64 26
Ralph Backstrom 14
Dave Balon 12
1964-65 42
Henri Richard 26
Dave Balon 24
1965-66 48
XXX 23
Henri Richard 23
Jean Beliveau 15
Dave Balon 4
1966-67 18
Henri Richard 10
Dick Duff 4
1967-68 36
Ralph Backstrom 14
XXX 12
XXX 9
Jean Beliveau 8
1968-69 26
XXX 13
Ralph Backstrom 9
Jean Beliveau 9
It seems pretty clear that Goyette centred Provost from 1957-58 through 1959-60. Richard centred Provost from 61-62 through 66-67, with the exception of 63-64 when Provost played with Backstrom.
You probably don't think Henrik Zetterberg is an elite PKer either....
As nik said, maybe he isn’t. I wouldn’t be comfortable with him on a 1st ATD PK unit.
Quote:
It really doesn't fluctuate as much if you only include seasons when he was a full-time NHLer. He played 81 TOTAL games between 1967-68 and 1969-70 (15, 30, 36) and only played 24 games in 1980-81. So if you only look at the decade when he was a full time NHLer, you have 13, 20, 18, 31, 25, 4, 1, 30, 2, 22 from 1970-71 to 1979-80. And his 8 SHGA in 24 games played in 1980-81 is actually quite good.
Yes, obviously GP play a part. When that is all accounted for, his career post-expansion “score” is 32% killed for teams 10% above average.
Career scores for other guys who will obviously kill penalties in the ATD:
It's strange, I would have expected the two "down" seasons in the middle to correspond to his offensive peak when he was playing regularly with Guy Lafleur (and therefore obviously not used to kill penalties), but his big offensive years were 1975 and 1976, and if your stats are right, his "4, 1" years were 1976 and 1977.
I guess it depends on how much you want to look at peak - for the first half of the 70s, he was absolutely one of the elite penalty killers in the league. If I have time (I haven't done an original profile since Ted Lindsay), I'll try to see if Pete's lack of usage in certain years in the later half of the 70s was because he was given a more offensive role, because of injuries, or because he wasn't as effective at it anymore.
Mahovlich definitely had a PK “peak” – it was the 1972-1975 seasons, during which he killed 46-62% of penalties for the Habs. They were worse than average in one year and much better than average in the other three. During this time, his “score” was 55% and 0.85. So it’s true that for a four-year period he put up PK numbers like some elite guys averaged throughout their 15-20 year careers.
For context, here are the best 4-year peaks for the other guys:
He was one of my favourite picks last year. The more I read, the more I liked him.
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe
I don't see any goalies drafted already who I would take Connell ahead of.
Same here.
Quote:
Originally Posted by markrander87
Overall I feel these goalies (Vezina, Lehman, Worters and Hainsworth) are being very underrated. There are multiple quotes for all of them being the best goaltenders of their era and for whatever reason they can't crack the top 15 goalies or even top 20.
Why is this?
For one thing, there are so many varying views on who was the best of Benedict’s, Worters’, and Durnan’s generations, that once an aggregate view is compiled no one stands alone at the top, instead, many of them just sit in that 12-22 range that blends together. I suspect Benedict might join the blend soon.
I remember a few drafts ago a criticism was raised that I overvalue the 1930s goalies. I then posted my list of top goalies, the highest 1930s goalie on there was Worters at 17th, and it was easily the lowest any “top goalie of a generation” was ranked. In my mind, how much less could I represent that era? If someone stood head and shoulders above I could put him 9th or something, but so many people have their own ideas about who was the best there, and it all depends on what attributes you value more.
Quote:
Originally Posted by jarek
Here's a novel idea.. maybe there.. *gasp*.. ARE 25 top-15 goaltenders? I mean, if 5 guys have credentials that are so similar, what's the big deal with saying they're all about the same, and call it a tie? The 5th one taken will just get someone the greatest value of them all.
You're all so hooked on this idea of "my player is top-x", but the truth of the matter is that so many guys, especially goalies, are so close and so hard to rank that it's impossible to actually rank them.
Pretty much what I said above.
Quote:
Originally Posted by arrbez
Inglewood selects an excellent two-way winger who was a model of consistency over a career that spanned from 1964 until 1981. Ellis was an exceptionally consistent offensive player, averaging over 25 goals a year from age 20 until his mid-30's. His offensive contributions were perhaps secondary to his work at the defensive end though, as Ellis was counted on to kill penalties and check the opposition's top forwards both in the NHL and with Team Canada in 1972. I think his consistency, durability, elite speed, and ability to play in all three zones makes him a great third-liner in this. My dad's favourite player back in the day:
Ron Ellis
*does a double take*
You got him AFTER Bob Nevin? Wow.
I love Nevin and all, but Ronnie Ellis is definitely the better player.
Quote:
Originally Posted by MadArcand
The Whalers round out their defense with Rob Ramage, D
I had no idea he ever played in Minnesota!
Quote:
Originally Posted by markrander87
TDMM i'm still waiting for this proof that Worters was named to any 1st all star teams (that hockey card you speak of) I found this quote from the Saskatoon Star 1957:
This is the mythical card you speak of:
Quote:
Honestly, has anybody bothered to research Hainsworth play for the Leafs? there are numerous quotes showing how well he played for them late into his 30's.
And yet, very few voters thought he was worthy of an all-star spot or their hart vote.
Worters finished 3rd in all-star voting in 1931, ahead of Hainsworth. Worters finished 2nd in all-star voting in 1932, ahead of Hainsworth. Worters finished 3rd in all-star voting in 1933, ahead of Hainsworth. Worters finished 2nd in all-star voting in 1934, ahead of Hainsworth. Worters finished 3rd in all-star voting in 1935, ahead of Hainsworth. Worters finished 5th in all-star voting in 1936, one vote behind Hainsworth.
Worters won a Hart in 1929. He finished 2nd in Hart voting in 1928. He finished tied for 4th in Hart voting in 1926. He finished 5th in Hart voting in 1934. He finished tied for 10th in Hart voting in 1927. Hainsworth does not appear in published Hart voting results uncovered so far.
Indeed.
Quote:
Originally Posted by overpass
Sure. If a player has high PPGA in one season and his team has a bad penalty kill, he may have just been a bad penalty killer.
But if he keeps getting sent out year after year he must have been doing something right. Especially if his team is getting good results.
But remember that Laprade didn't join the NHL until the age of 26 and was a very effective hockey player before then (doing very well for himself against the Kraut Line in the Allan Cup after they had left for war). This is what their VS2 Scores from the age of 26 on look like:
Provost's 3 best seasons are 1962, 1965, 1966. When did he play with Henri Richard?
Vecens..... Just because a player didn't play in the NHL it doesn't mean his previous years have zero value.
I agree with TDMM here, where a player starting a NHL career late obviously has an impact when comparing them to a player who began their NHL career at a lesser age.
