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ATD 2012 - Draft Thread V

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Old
02-15-2012, 08:36 PM
  #126
markrander87
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Originally Posted by jarek View Post
Parent had, arguably, the most dominant 2-year performance among goaltenders in NHL history.
And I just showed you how well Hainsworth actually played in Montreal.

It's not as easy as scanning Hockeyreference and looking at his GAA and Wins, or him playing only 3 games.

I broke down every series and clearly showed how dominant his 5 consecutive playoff years were.

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02-15-2012, 08:36 PM
  #127
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Originally Posted by jarek View Post
Parent had, arguably, the most dominant 2-year performance among goaltenders in NHL history.
I understand he won the cup in both years, but I'll take 1996-97 and 1997-98 of Dominik Hasek (2 hart trophies, hell take 1997-98 and 1998-99 if you want. I believe 3rd in Hart + Stanley Cup final) and Terry Sawchuk 1950-51, 1951-52. However, I can't think of anyone else, and yes, I guess both are arguable )

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02-15-2012, 08:37 PM
  #128
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Originally Posted by markrander87 View Post
What is the difference between Hainsworths 5 years in the playoffs shown compared to Parents 2 best years in the playoffs? Parent had the Conn Smythe around when Hainsworth didn't?

Let's be honest here. Parent gets drafted because of those two monster performences in the playoffs.

Hainsworth almost had identicle 2 years in a row, plus those other 3 listed above. Hainsworth also had a much better regular season resume compared to Parent and a much longer career.



WHAT SEPERATES GEORGE HAINSWORTH FROM BERNIE PARENT?


Also keep in Mind Hainsworth was doing all this well into his 30's compared to Parent when he was playing in his 20's.
Pretty sizable gap in their voting records, no? Parent picked up two 1st All-Star teams. Hainsworth's best finish was a 3rd place finish getting the second most votes in the '32 SECOND TEAM voting. What makes you suggest Hainworth has a "much better regular season resume"?

I don't think Hainsworth is better than Gump Worsley, let alone Parent.

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02-15-2012, 08:37 PM
  #129
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Originally Posted by Dreakmur View Post
That means that our trade with Nalyd has not met the conditions, and he listpicks coach Al Arbour.
Thank you. Al Arbour was the one person I loved at this point in the draft. I always figure it's good to have a few elite people throughout your team, and an elite coach is part of that. And given how effective Arbour was at getting scoring stars like Bossy and Lafontaine to buy into a team first game, he should get the most effective performance out of Richard.

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Old
02-15-2012, 08:38 PM
  #130
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Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
Well for one thing, people who watched Hainsworth seemed to prefer Roy Worters to him. And people who watched them all seemed to prefer Georges Vezina and Charlie Gardiner to Worters.

show us this evidence

Quote:
Originally Posted by Leafs Forever View Post
Parent gets drafted as high as he does because of not just 2 monster playoffs, but seasons on a whole, and a number of very good seasons outside of that.
.
Care to break down Parents 5 top seasons compared to Hainsworths 5 top seasons?

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02-15-2012, 08:38 PM
  #131
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Originally Posted by markrander87 View Post
Did you completely bypass my above post shpwing how well Hainsworth played in 5 consecutive playoffs?


I broke down every series for each year. There were multiple games that went into 3-4 overtimes a piece.

Hainsworth had at least a 10 period shutout streak in 1929-30
I read them and didn't get the feeling Hainsworth was dominant. Most of them don't even say Hainsworth played well.

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02-15-2012, 08:39 PM
  #132
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Originally Posted by markrander87 View Post
And I just showed you how well Hainsworth actually played in Montreal.

It's not as easy as scanning Hockeyreference and looking at his GAA and Wins, or him playing only 3 games.

I broke down every series and clearly showed how dominant his 5 consecutive playoff years were.
The same type of praise, and likely more, can be found for Parent's 2 years.. and he also has the numbers and hardware to back it up. Hainsworth may indeed have had a better 5 year performance than Parent.. I don't think anyone is actually saying he didn't.. but Parent definitely had one of the most dominant 2 year stretches in NHL history.. not just in his own era.

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02-15-2012, 08:39 PM
  #133
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Originally Posted by Bring Back Scuderi View Post
Pretty sizable gap in their voting records, no? Parent picked up two 1st All-Star teams. Hainsworth's best finish was a 3rd place finish getting the second most votes in the '32 SECOND TEAM voting. What makes you suggest Hainworth has a "much better regular season resume"?

I don't think Hainsworth is better than Gump Worsley, let alone Parent.
Most of what Hainsworth is drafted for happened before All Star Teams were official. That said, the only unofficial All Star Team we have from before 1930 is from 1928 and Hainsworth finished 2nd to Worters in All Star voting.

I think there's an argument for Hainsworth over Worsley. Not over Parent though.

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02-15-2012, 08:40 PM
  #134
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Originally Posted by EagleBelfour View Post
I understand he won the cup in both years, but I'll take 1996-97 and 1997-98 of Dominik Hasek (2 hart trophies, hell take 1997-98 and 1998-99 if you want. I believe 3rd in Hart + Stanley Cup final) and Terry Sawchuk 1950-51, 1951-52. However, I can't think of anyone else, and yes, I guess both are arguable )
It's why I said arguably, and not definitely. ;D

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02-15-2012, 08:42 PM
  #135
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Originally Posted by markrander87 View Post
show us this evidence
I'm really not interested in doing your research for you when I don't have either Hainsworth or Worters. But Worters consistently finished ahead of Hainsworth in Hart voting, he was the 1st Team All Star in the unofficial 1928 All Star team that has been uncovered, and I believe his "hockey card" claims that he was an unofficial 1st Team All Star 4 times in the late 1920s (which would correspond to Hainsworth's peak).

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02-15-2012, 08:42 PM
  #136
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Originally Posted by Bring Back Scuderi View Post
Pretty sizable gap in their voting records, no? Parent picked up two 1st All-Star teams. Hainsworth's best finish was a 3rd place finish getting the second most votes in the '32 SECOND TEAM voting. What makes you suggest Hainworth has a "much better regular season resume"?

I don't think Hainsworth is better than Gump Worsley, let alone Parent.
Are there records of this prior to 1930? Hainsworth was 35 years old in 1930. Roy Worters for example had his last substantial year as a 35 year old.

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02-15-2012, 08:43 PM
  #137
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Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
Most of what Hainsworth is drafted for happened before All Star Teams were official. That said, the only unofficial All Star Team we have from before 1930 is from 1928 and Hainsworth finished 2nd to Worters in All Star voting.

I think there's an argument for Hainsworth over Worsley. Not over Parent though.
Good point, didn't realize I lopped off three of Hainsworth's seasons there.

I totally see how the argument with Gump could be made, I just think singling out Parent is a bit silly.

Quote:
Originally Posted by markrander87
Are there records of this prior to 1930? Hainsworth was 35 years old in 1930. Roy Worters for example had his last substantial year as a 35 year old.
Yeah my mistake on that, but I did post his WCHL First All-Star earlier which helps his cause, but obviously there's no voting records for those.

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02-15-2012, 08:44 PM
  #138
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Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
I'm really not interested in doing your research for you when I don't have either Hainsworth or Worters. But Worters consistently finished ahead of Hainsworth in Hart voting, he was the 1st Team All Star in the unofficial 1928 All Star team that has been uncovered, and I believe his "hockey card" claims that he was an unofficial 1st Team All Star 4 times in the late 1920s (which would correspond to Hainsworth's peak).
NHL Peak yes he was 31-34 years old in the late 20's.

So we have a hockey card that we think says Worters had 4 FAST?

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02-15-2012, 08:44 PM
  #139
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Originally Posted by markrander87 View Post
Are there records of this prior to 1930? Hainsworth was 35 years old in 1930. Roy Worters for example had his last substantial year as a 35 year old.
Honestly, if I were you, I would rather look into Hainsworth's career before the NHL, since it seems like those years are largely unknown by the GMs here, so you can probably make the most headway with that.

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02-15-2012, 08:46 PM
  #140
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Originally Posted by markrander87 View Post
show us this evidence



Care to break down Parents 5 top seasons compared to Hainsworths 5 top seasons?
For Hainsworth vs Parent at leaast, burden of proof is on you, who is challenging the norm. I'll do a cursary from Parent's view-

Here's seventies bio on him-http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/showpost.php?p=24338860&postcount=73

Top 5 AST: 1, 1, 4, 4, 5
Top 5 s%: 1, 2, 3, 3, 3

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02-15-2012, 08:46 PM
  #141
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Originally Posted by markrander87 View Post
Are there records of this prior to 1930? Hainsworth was 35 years old in 1930. Roy Worters for example had his last substantial year as a 35 year old.
There were GM-voted all-star teams, but we've only been able to gather partial teams.


Of the pieced we have gathers, Roy Worters was voted top goalie in 1927, 1928, 1929, and 1930.

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02-15-2012, 08:47 PM
  #142
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Originally Posted by Nalyd Psycho View Post
Thank you. Al Arbour was the one person I loved at this point in the draft. I always figure it's good to have a few elite people throughout your team, and an elite coach is part of that. And given how effective Arbour was at getting scoring stars like Bossy and Lafontaine to buy into a team first game, he should get the most effective performance out of Richard.
Thank god Arbour was available! And yes, he's a fantastic coach for Maurice.

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It's why I said arguably, and not definitely. ;D
I know, I know!

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Old
02-15-2012, 08:50 PM
  #143
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Originally Posted by Bring Back Scuderi View Post
Good point, didn't realize I lopped off three of Hainsworth's seasons there.

I totally see how the argument with Gump could be made, I just think singling out Parent is a bit silly.



Yeah my mistake on that, but I did post his WCHL First All-Star earlier which helps his cause, but obviously there's no voting records for those.
I didn't mean to single out Parent in trying to Bash him. (I can see how that would come across)

I actually though of Parent for comparison sakes because they both had 2 very very dominant playoff seasons in a row.




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Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
Most of what Hainsworth is drafted for happened before All Star Teams were official. That said, the only unofficial All Star Team we have from before 1930 is from 1928 and Hainsworth finished 2nd to Worters in All Star voting.

I think there's an argument for Hainsworth over Worsley. Not over Parent though.

Again, see above. Parent was chosen because of his 2 year dominace in the Playoffs. I'm absolutely not disputing that he didn't. But a minimum 10 period consecutive shutout streak?

Did anybody factor in these 3 and 4 extra overime periods of shutout play for Hainsworths playoff resume?

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Originally Posted by jarek View Post
The same type of praise, and likely more, can be found for Parent's 2 years.. and he also has the numbers and hardware to back it up. Hainsworth may indeed have had a better 5 year performance than Parent.. I don't think anyone is actually saying he didn't.. but Parent definitely had one of the most dominant 2 year stretches in NHL history.. not just in his own era.
That's the thing. There was no hardware when Hainsworth played. Is that his fault??


I'm not denying Parents 2 year playoff peak. But Hainsworth has to be up there as well. Then factor in his longer career (in the 1920's-30's no less)


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Originally Posted by Dreakmur View Post
I read them and didn't get the feeling Hainsworth was dominant. Most of them don't even say Hainsworth played well.
When you actually read through and understand what was going on each game it does.

A minimum 10 period consecutive shutout streak in the playoffs? Is there a longer consecutive streak on record??

I'm not sure im actually pretty interested

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02-15-2012, 08:52 PM
  #144
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Originally Posted by jarek View Post
Honestly, if I were you, I would rather look into Hainsworth's career before the NHL, since it seems like those years are largely unknown by the GMs here, so you can probably make the most headway with that.

I absolutely plan on it.

In the meantime, I was blown away by reading the game by game breakdown of Hainsworth in the playoffs and the amount of 1-0 game she lost and multiple overtime period games he won.

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02-15-2012, 08:56 PM
  #145
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Originally Posted by markrander87 View Post
That's the thing. There was no hardware when Hainsworth played. Is that his fault??
Not at all. However, the fact that the hardware existed for Parent means that we can indisputably conclude that Parent was not only his team's best player for two years in a row in the playoffs, but also the best player in the entire playoffs for two years in a row. Can you, without any shadow of a doubt, claim the same thing for Hainsworth?

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02-15-2012, 09:02 PM
  #146
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Not at all. However, the fact that the hardware existed for Parent means that we can indisputably conclude that Parent was not only his team's best player for two years in a row in the playoffs, but also the best player in the entire playoffs for two years in a row. Can you, without any shadow of a doubt, claim the same thing for Hainsworth?



And we are back to square one BW.


Can you prove the bolded to any player prior to the Conn smythe existing.

I can make the arguement of course..

1929-30 and 1930-31

Two Cups. Led in the playoffs in both minutes played and shutouts. GAA in one year.


George Hainsworth 1929-30 playoffs was the best ever for a goaltender

Game 1 Quarter finals- Shutout, team wins 1-0
Game 2 Quarter Finals- 3-2 win, triple overtime (3 extra periods of shutout hockey)

Game 1 Semi Finals- 2-1 win, quadruple overtime (4 extra periods of shutout hockey)
Game 2 Semi finals- 2-0 Shutout Win

Game 1 Cup finals- 3-0 Shutout Win
Game 2 Cup finals- 4-3 Cup Win


Let's make sense of all this:

In 5 of the 6 games Hainsworth had at least consecutive shutout periods PER GAME

Now when we factor in all of those overtime periods

Including every game Hainsworth allowed 6 goals in 22 periods

Eliminating the last game of the playoffs Hainsworth allowed 3 goals in 19 periods

* Can somebody calculate the GAA factoring in overtime periods?


Last edited by markrander87: 02-15-2012 at 09:17 PM.
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02-15-2012, 09:03 PM
  #147
TheDevilMadeMe
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Originally Posted by markrander87 View Post



And we are back to square one BW.


Can you prove the bolded to any player prior to the Conn smythe existing.

I can make the arguement of course.
Newspaper articles calling Hainsworth the best player on the ice or mentioning how he carried his team would be a start.

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02-15-2012, 09:08 PM
  #148
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For the record, Hainsworth won 1 retro-active Conn smythe in 1930.

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02-15-2012, 09:20 PM
  #149
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Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
Newspaper articles calling Hainsworth the best player on the ice or mentioning how he carried his team would be a start.
George Hainsworth 1929-30 playoffs was the best ever for a goaltender

Game 1 Quarter finals- Shutout, team wins 1-0
Game 2 Quarter Finals- 3-2 win, triple overtime (3 extra periods of shutout hockey)

Game 1 Semi Finals- 2-1 win, quadruple overtime (4 extra periods of shutout hockey)
Game 2 Semi finals- 2-0 Shutout Win

Game 1 Cup finals- 3-0 Shutout Win
Game 2 Cup finals- 4-3 Cup Win


Let's make sense of all this:

In 5 of the 6 games Hainsworth had at least 3 consecutive shutout periods PER GAME

Now when we factor in all of those overtime periods

Including every game Hainsworth allowed 6 goals in 22 periods

Eliminating the last game of the playoffs Hainsworth allowed 3 goals in 19 periods

* Can somebody calculate the GAA factoring in overtime periods?


Quote:
Leafs Forever

For the record, Hainsworth won 1 retro-active Conn smythe in 1930

I can't see any other goaltending performence topping Hainsworth in those 1930 playoffs.


Last edited by markrander87: 02-15-2012 at 09:46 PM.
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02-15-2012, 09:24 PM
  #150
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I've read the articles from the Gazette on Montreal's 1930 win and while Hainsworth was praised it didn't seem like he was carrying the team.

Howie Morenz was the best player in both Chicago games and in the final game against Boston, and would have had a good case for Conn Smythe.

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