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Old
02-15-2012, 09:27 PM
  #151
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Quote:
Originally Posted by overpass View Post
I've read the articles from the Gazette on Montreal's 1930 win and while Hainsworth was praised it didn't seem like he was carrying the team.

Howie Morenz was the best player in both Chicago games and in the final game against Boston, and would have had a good case for Conn Smythe.


Overpass are we talking about the same 1929-30 Playoffs?

Check out my breakdown above and then consider Morenz had 3 points (3 goals 0 Assists) in the 6 games. Behind Pit Lepine and 2 other undrafteds.

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02-15-2012, 09:31 PM
  #152
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Quote:
Originally Posted by markrander87 View Post
I can't see any other goaltending performence topping Hainsworth in those 1930 playoffs.
1952 Terry Sawchuk?

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02-15-2012, 09:36 PM
  #153
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EagleBelfour View Post
1952 Terry Sawchuk?
And just think, Sawchuk had to actually play against teams that could pass the puck forward in the offensive zone.

Edit: Nevermind, 1929-30 was after the forward pass was allowed.

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02-15-2012, 09:37 PM
  #154
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hainsworth led the NHL in sv% in '28 (numbers were published in april 1, 1928 new york times).

drafted goalies:
hainsworth: .966
worters: .956
benedict: .944
gardiner: .923


worters faced 37.5 shots per 60 minutes. NYA allowed more than 40 shots per game. hainsworth faced the 2nd fewest shots per 60 minutes (31.1). benedict faced the fewest (30)


NYT also published sv% from 3/4 through '29 season.

drafted goalies
worters: .974
hainsworth: .967
thompson: .964
benedict: .963
gardiner: .957

worters faced 41.3 shots per 60 minutes. gardiner faced 41.2. hainsworth faced the 2nd fewest shots per 60 minutes (34.3). thompson faced the fewest (32.2). benedict was exactly average in sv% and shots against (38).

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02-15-2012, 09:38 PM
  #155
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EagleBelfour View Post
1952 Terry Sawchuk?
It's probably the only comparable one.

Both went undefeated. I dont have any records on if Sawchuks wins went into OT or not.

*If Sawchuks games did not go into OT:

Sawchuk: 24 periods played, 5 goals against

Hainsworth: 25 (24.whatever factoring in half ot periods) 6 goals against


Wow according to HR

Hainsworth had 481 minutes played
Sawchuk 480


We would have to factor in Who had the tougher road, and better team infront of them.

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02-15-2012, 09:44 PM
  #156
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nik jr View Post
hainsworth led the NHL in sv% in '28 (numbers were published in april 1, 1928 new york times).

drafted goalies:
hainsworth: .966
worters: .956
benedict: .944
gardiner: .923


worters faced 37.5 shots per 60 minutes. NYA allowed more than 40 shots per game. hainsworth faced the 2nd fewest shots per 60 minutes (31.1). benedict faced the fewest (30)


NYT also published sv% from 3/4 through '29 season.

drafted goalies
worters: .974
hainsworth: .967
thompson: .964
benedict: .963
gardiner: .957

worters faced 41.3 shots per 60 minutes. gardiner faced 41.2. hainsworth faced the 2nd fewest shots per 60 minutes (34.3). thompson faced the fewest (32.2). benedict was exactly average in sv% and shots against (38).





Awesome data thank you!

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02-15-2012, 09:56 PM
  #157
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nik jr View Post
hainsworth led the NHL in sv% in '28 (numbers were published in april 1, 1928 new york times).

drafted goalies:
hainsworth: .966
worters: .956
benedict: .944
gardiner: .923


worters faced 37.5 shots per 60 minutes. NYA allowed more than 40 shots per game. hainsworth faced the 2nd fewest shots per 60 minutes (31.1). benedict faced the fewest (30)


NYT also published sv% from 3/4 through '29 season.

drafted goalies
worters: .974
hainsworth: .967
thompson: .964
benedict: .963
gardiner: .957

worters faced 41.3 shots per 60 minutes. gardiner faced 41.2. hainsworth faced the 2nd fewest shots per 60 minutes (34.3). thompson faced the fewest (32.2). benedict was exactly average in sv% and shots against (38).

This brings us back to the Parent comparion. LF was nice enough to post Parents placements:

Quote:
For Hainsworth vs Parent at leaast, burden of proof is on you, who is challenging the norm. I'll do a cursary from Parent's view-

Here's seventies bio on him-http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/showpost.php?p=24338860&postcount=73

Top 5 AST: 1, 1, 4, 4, 5
Top 5 s%: 1, 2, 3, 3, 3

From the above we already have a 1 and 2(3/4 of season) top 5 s% for Hainsworth.


So we are left with a 3, 3, 3 s % for Hainsworth out of all of those remaining years?



The case can be made that Hainsworths career excluding his prior NHL success Over the age of 30) is comparable to Parents.


Hainsworth led the league in Wins in 3 other seasons then those 2 seasons mentioned above.

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02-15-2012, 10:05 PM
  #158
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First off, put Hainsworth performance in perspective against his peers. He had the best playoff GAA once, and had a GAA twice that of the leader 5 times.

Bolded are the years Hainsworth is in the other columns.

YearHainsworthTop GAACup winner
19271.430.600.60
19281.410.861.00
19291.670.60*0.60
19300.750.750.75
19311.751.001.75
19322.601.162.05
19334.001.231.60
19342.191.331.33
19351.571.121.12
19362.991.211.34

* Roy Worters lost a two game total goals playoff series with a GAA of 0.40, allowing 1 GA in 150 mins. You need 180 minutes to qualify for leadership.

His 1930 playoff looks very good, but no other year comes close to what Parent did in his Conn Smythe years.

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02-15-2012, 10:08 PM
  #159
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Quote:
Originally Posted by markrander87 View Post
This brings us back to the Parent comparion. LF was nice enough to post Parents placements:




From the above we already have a 1 and 2(3/4 of season) top 5 s% for Hainsworth.


So we are left with a 3, 3, 3 s % for Hainsworth out of all of those remaining years?



The case can be made that Hainsworths career excluding his prior NHL success Over the age of 30) is comparable to Parents.


Hainsworth led the league in Wins in 3 other seasons then those 2 seasons mentioned above.
The season that Hainsworth led the league in save percentage (according to the people unofficially counting the shots at least), he was playing behind a stacked defense including your own Herb Gardiner. The NHL managers voted Roy Worters the best goalie in the league and Hainsworth the second best.

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02-15-2012, 10:09 PM
  #160
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BM67 View Post
First off, put Hainsworth performance in perspective against his peers. He had the best playoff GAA once, and had a GAA twice that of the leader 5 times.

Bolded are the years Hainsworth is in the other columns.

YearHainsworthTop GAACup winner
19271.430.600.60
19281.410.861.00
19291.670.60*0.60
19300.750.750.75
19311.751.001.75
19322.601.162.05
19334.001.231.60
19342.191.331.33
19351.571.121.12
19362.991.211.34

* Roy Worters lost a two game total goals playoff series with a GAA of 0.40, allowing 1 GA in 150 mins. You need 180 minutes to qualify for leadership.

His 1930 playoff looks very good, but no other year comes close to what Parent did in his Conn Smythe years.


So what is your point?

Agreed Parent had the better 2 year peak between the two.

My arguement is that Hainsworths 1930 playoffs was the single best playoffs of all time for a goaltender, and Hainsworths career after the age of 30 looks similar to that of Parents.


Why don't you post the above chart for Parent?


If you'd like to bring up GAA, we may as well discuss Hainsworth having the 2nd best GAA of all time.


Last edited by markrander87: 02-15-2012 at 10:16 PM.
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02-15-2012, 10:11 PM
  #161
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Sorry for the wait, all!

After some deliberation, Dawson City selects Conn Smythe winner and 4-time Stanley Cup champion Butch Goring, C, to kick off our third line.

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02-15-2012, 10:13 PM
  #162
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
The season that Hainsworth led the league in save percentage, he was playing behind a stacked defense. The NHL managers voted Roy Worters the best goalie in the league and Hainsworth the second best.




And Bobby clarke and Co. had nothing to do with Parents save percentage placements?



Again admittingly i'm grabbing high here for a Parent comparison (who was drafted 200 spots before Hainsworth) But there careers are not that big of a gap at all.


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02-15-2012, 10:19 PM
  #163
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from the small amount of video i have seen from late '20s and '30s, players took shots whenever they had an opportunity.

based on the SA numbers, parity was probably not very high, and there was probably a fairly wide diversity in shot quality.

Quote:
Originally Posted by markrander87 View Post
This brings us back to the Parent comparion. LF was nice enough to post Parents placements:

From the above we already have a 1 and 2(3/4 of season) top 5 s% for Hainsworth.
hainsworth was only 2nd among drafted goalies in '29. he was not 2nd.

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02-15-2012, 10:21 PM
  #164
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Quote:
Originally Posted by markrander87 View Post



And Bobby clarke and Co. had nothing to do with Parents save percentage placements?



Again admittingly i'm grabbing high here for a Parent comparison (who was drafted 200 spots above Hainsworth) But there careers are not that big of a gap at all.
I don't really care about Parent's save percentage placements, though I would imagine shot recording in the 1970s would be a bit more reliable than in the 1930s.

In 1974 , Parent finished 2nd in Hart voting and was a 1st Team All Star by a fairly large margin: Bernie Parent 232, Tony Esposito 152, Gilles Gilbert 21

In 1975, Parent finished 4th in Hart voting and was voted a 1st Team All Star by a smaller by still decent margin: Bernie Parent 229; XXX 194; Gary Smith 29

Hainsworth was never top 5 in Hart voting. In the year he led the NHL in save percentage according that article (27-28), he finished 2nd to Roy Worters in All Star voting among goalies. Worters received 7 out of 10 first place votes and 1 second place vote. We don't have records as to how many votes Hainsworth received.

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02-15-2012, 10:22 PM
  #165
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nik jr View Post


hainsworth was only 2nd among drafted goalies in '29. he was not 2nd.
So who else finished ahead of him?

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02-15-2012, 10:22 PM
  #166
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In the 1930 playoffs, the average goals per game for the entire league was 1.875. Hainsworth had a 0.75 GAA, or 40% of said average. This, also, was only over 6 games.

1974 playoffs: 2.88 GAA for the league, 2.02 for Parent, or 70% of the league average over 17 games.

1975 playoffs: 3.07 GAA for the league, 1.89 for Parent, 62% of league average over 15 games.

Hainsworth never came close to that type of performance ever again, which suggests that it was more than just his ability that allowed him to attain such a feat. Moreover, he did it over 6 games - it is much, much harder to maintain an elite pace over a playoff that is 3 times as long, especially since the league is scoring, during Parent's playoffs, over a full goal per game more.

Moreover, Parent's consecutive Conn Smythes is indisputable evidence that he was the best player in those two playoffs. You will find anecdotal evidence that suggests the same thing.

During Hainsworth's run, others have already mentioned that nothing in the newspapers maintain that Hainsworth was stealing the show. It was a very low scoring era, and over 6 games, it is entirely reasonable that the play was held to an unusual low in goals per game. Moreover, if these players are playing for that many overtime periods, that suggests to me that the reason there were so many of them was due to player fatigue, not any miraculous goaltending. The newspaper accounts suggest as much, not particularly praising either goaltender.

And again, I cannot stress enough how much easier it is to see an unusual trend over such a small sample size vs. what teams have to go through in a modern playoff. Put it into perspective: in Hainsworth's days, their entire playoff lasted about as long as a single round these days. You want to see what happens with such a small sample size?

2000-01 playoffs: TML beats Senators 4-0 in round 1.. allowing a grand total of 3 goals against. That means Curtis Joseph had a GAA of 0.75* and a S% of .998 (3 goals over 120 shots). His stats that playoff? 2.10, .927. With this in mind, is it so unusual to see a huge anomaly in a player's play over such a small sample size? Moreover, I must stress that Hainsworth never did it again. That, to me, suggests more than anything that it was just that - an anomaly. The newspaper reports, again, reflect that. If there was universal praise in the newspapers over Hainsworth's work, I'd absolutely agree with you.. but there isn't. Is it up there as far as dominant playoffs are concerned? Sure.. but it isn't what Parent did, not even close, IMO.

*it is actually less, since GAA is calculated by goals allowed per 60 minutes, not goals allowed per game, and that series went through a few overtimes


Last edited by jarek: 02-15-2012 at 10:28 PM.
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02-15-2012, 10:26 PM
  #167
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
I don't really care about Parent's save percentage placements, though I would imagine shot recording in the 1970s would be a bit more reliable than in the 1930s.

In 1974 , Parent finished 2nd in Hart voting and was a 1st Team All Star by a fairly large margin: Bernie Parent 232, Tony Esposito 152, Gilles Gilbert 21

In 1975, Parent finished 4th in Hart voting and was voted a 1st Team All Star by a smaller by still decent margin: Bernie Parent 229; XXX 194; Gary Smith 29

Hainsworth was never top 5 in Hart voting. In the year he led the NHL in save percentage according that article (27-28), he finished 2nd to Roy Worters in All Star voting among goalies. Worters received 7 out of 10 first place votes and 1 second place vote. We don't have records as to how many votes Hainsworth received.



Again, What is your point?

So because of these two years Parent gets an automatic pass over Hainsworth?

Newsflash Bernie Parent finished high in Hart voting in 1974 1975 we already knew this. everythime somebody tries to defend Bernie Parent they bring up two years.

Bernie Parents two years remind me a lot of a current Black and Gold Goalie. I'd love to hear why Parent goes probably 500 spots ahead of him.

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02-15-2012, 10:29 PM
  #168
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jarek View Post
In the 1930 playoffs, the average goals per game for the entire league was 1.875. Hainsworth had a 0.75 GAA, or 40% of said average. This, also, was only over 6 games.

1974 playoffs: 2.88 GAA for the league, 2.02 for Parent, or 70% of the league average over 17 games.

1975 playoffs: 3.07 GAA for the league, 1.89 for Parent, 62% of league average over 15 games.

Hainsworth never came close to that type of performance ever again, which suggests that it was more than just his ability that allowed him to attain such a feat. Moreover, he did it over 6 games - it is much, much harder to maintain an elite pace over a playoff that is 3 times as long, especially since the league is scoring, during Parent's playoffs, over a full goal per game more.

Moreover, Parent's consecutive Conn Smythes is indisputable evidence that he was the best player in those two playoffs. You will find anecdotal evidence that suggests the same thing.

During Hainsworth's run, others have already mentioned that nothing in the newspapers maintain that Hainsworth was stealing the show. It was a very low scoring era, and over 6 games, it is entirely reasonable that the play was held to an unusual low in goals per game. Moreover, if these players are playing for that many overtime periods, that suggests to me that the reason there were so many of them was due to player fatigue, not any miraculous goaltending. The newspaper accounts suggest as much, not particularly praising either goaltender.

And again, I cannot stress enough how much easier it is to see an unusual trend over such a small sample size vs. what teams have to go through in a modern playoff. Put it into perspective: in Hainsworth's days, their entire playoff lasted about as long as a single round these days. You want to see what happens with such a small sample size?

2000-01 playoffs: TML beats Senators 4-0 in round 1.. allowing a grand total of 3 goals against. That means Curtis Joseph had a GAA of 0.75* and a S% of .998 (3 goals over 120 shots). His stats that playoff? 2.10, .927. With this in mind, is it so unusual to see a huge anomaly in a player's play over such a small sample size? Moreover, I must stress that Hainsworth never did it again. That, to me, suggests more than anything that it was just that - an anomaly. The newspaper reports, again, reflect that. If there was universal praise in the newspapers over Hainsworth's work, I'd absolutely agree with you.. but there isn't. Is it up there as far as dominant playoffs are concerned? Sure.. but it isn't what Parent did, not even close, IMO.

*it is actually less, since GAA is calculated by goals allowed per 60 minutes, not goals allowed per game, and those series' went through a few overtimes




This 100% proves my point.

Anybody defending Parent runs and hides behind those two massive seasons (which I already have agreed with)


BW just spent the last 2 hours typing up a post that completely proves my point.

Thanks a lot

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02-15-2012, 10:29 PM
  #169
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Because Parent had several other really good seasons.

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02-15-2012, 10:30 PM
  #170
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Quote:
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Because Parent had several other really good seasons.
the 3, 3, 3 in save %??


Get real

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02-15-2012, 10:32 PM
  #171
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Quote:
Originally Posted by markrander87 View Post
This 100% proves my point.

Anybody defending Parent runs and hides behind those two massive seasons (which I already have agreed with)


BW just spent the last 2 hours typing up a post that completely proves my point.

Thanks a lot
I actually spent about 15 minutes on it.

More to the point, your response here proves that you're not interested in listening to anything that doesn't prove your point. Nobody agrees with you. I think that's enough to suggest that you're wrong.

Anyways, the point of the post wasn't to compare Hainsworth's and Parent's playoffs. It was to demonstrate what a small sample size can do to skew stats, with Parent's stats thrown in there to show that Parent performed not a noteworthy amount worse (if he was worse at all, I really don't think he was), but over 3 times the amount of games in a higher scoring era.

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02-15-2012, 10:39 PM
  #172
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You know, I think I've figured it out. We go through this with mark every ATD. He takes a player that he feels is underappreciated and tries to convince everyone that he's better than an established guy taken 200 picks earlier. I think he just puts a bunch of names into a hat and decides to go through it with whichever name comes out.

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02-15-2012, 10:42 PM
  #173
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jarek View Post
In the 1930 playoffs, the average goals per game for the entire league was 1.875. Hainsworth had a 0.75 GAA, or 40% of said average. This, also, was only over 6 games.

1974 playoffs: 2.88 GAA for the league, 2.02 for Parent, or 70% of the league average over 17 games.

1975 playoffs: 3.07 GAA for the league, 1.89 for Parent, 62% of league average over 15 games.

I really can't help myself though and completely pick this apart.


BW mentioning Parents 1974/75 seasons?? What a shocker



Quote:
Hainsworth never came close to that type of performance ever again, which suggests that it was more than just his ability that allowed him to attain such a feat. Moreover, he did it over 6 games - it is much, much harder to maintain an elite pace over a playoff that is 3 times as long, especially since the league is scoring, during Parent's playoffs, over a full goal per game more.


I guess you completely missed how I broke down the other 4 playoff seasons surrounding the 1930 playoff season. That's ok, you're a bit rusty.


Quote:
Moreover, Parent's consecutive Conn Smythes is indisputable evidence that he was the best player in those two playoffs. You will find anecdotal evidence that suggests the same thing.

During Hainsworth's run, others have already mentioned that nothing in the newspapers maintain that Hainsworth was stealing the show. It was a very low scoring era, and over 6 games, it is entirely reasonable that the play was held to an unusual low in goals per game. Moreover, if these players are playing for that many overtime periods, that suggests to me that the reason there were so many of them was due to player fatigue, not any miraculous goaltending. The newspaper accounts suggest as much, not particularly praising either goaltender.


Ah yes, all these numbers mean nothing because we can't find a newspaper clipping from the 1930 Albany times showing otherwise

Quote:
And again, I cannot stress enough how much easier it is to see an unusual trend over such a small sample size vs. what teams have to go through in a modern playoff. Put it into perspective: in Hainsworth's days, their entire playoff lasted about as long as a single round these days. You want to see what happens with such a small sample size?

2000-01 playoffs: TML beats Senators 4-0 in round 1.. allowing a grand total of 3 goals against. That means Curtis Joseph had a GAA of 0.75* and a S% of .998 (3 goals over 120 shots). His stats that playoff? 2.10, .927. With this in mind, is it so unusual to see a huge anomaly in a player's play over such a small sample size? Moreover, I must stress that Hainsworth never did it again. That, to me, suggests more than anything that it was just that - an anomaly. The newspaper reports, again, reflect that. If there was universal praise in the newspapers over Hainsworth's work, I'd absolutely agree with you.. but there isn't. Is it up there as far as dominant playoffs are concerned? Sure.. but it isn't what Parent did, not even close, IMO.

*it is actually less, since GAA is calculated by goals allowed per 60 minutes, not goals allowed per game, and that series went through a few overtimes



First and Foremost, ARe there ANY newspaper clippings praising goaltenders perfomences in the playofs during Hainsworths career?

I've just provided links from the official "Ourcandianswebsite" praising Hainsworth several times for his play in the playoffs...I guess that doesnt count


On to your horrible 2001 Ottawa Senators assisgnment. The senators finished 14th out of 30 teams that season.

You are praising CuJo for having a low GAA aginst them and somehow trying to downplay Hainsworths performence against the top teams in the league and previous cup winners?


See you next year!

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02-15-2012, 10:43 PM
  #174
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Lada Togliatti selects W Joe Klukay



4 time cup champ and regarded as one of the best defensive forwards of all time.

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02-15-2012, 10:47 PM
  #175
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The Senators also finished THIRD in the regular season in goals for.. and finished with 109 points, good for 4th in the league.

Really, what the **** are you talking about? Lol.

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