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ATD 2012 - Draft Thread V

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Old
02-15-2012, 10:48 PM
  #176
markrander87
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Originally Posted by jarek View Post
You know, I think I've figured it out. We go through this with mark every ATD. He takes a player that he feels is underappreciated and tries to convince everyone that he's better than an established guy taken 200 picks earlier. I think he just puts a bunch of names into a hat and decides to go through it with whichever name comes out.
That's funny...BBS already admitted that he now beleives Hainsworth has a case over Worsley (from the last 2 hours of conversation), so did TDMM (Not sure if it's because of the last 1 and a half or not)


Vecens already mentioned how great the conversation was. It's too bad you had to magically appear again and turn it into a BW cry fest.


I'm glad you came back "to see how Denneny and Keats were doing" all of these GM's so far were too intelligent to banter with.

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02-15-2012, 10:49 PM
  #177
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Originally Posted by markrander87 View Post

I guess you completely missed how I broke down the other 4 playoff seasons surrounding the 1930 playoff season. That's ok, you're a bit rusty.
Was Hainsworth any better than league average in playoff GAA outside 1930? I know one of the criticisms of Hainsworth is that he usually led the league in GAA in the regular season but often couldn't maintain it in the playoffs (1930 excepted obviously).

Quote:
First and Foremost, ARe there ANY newspaper clippings praising goaltenders perfomences in the playofs during Hainsworths career?
Well, at least we know one person who hasn't been reading profiles of Charlie Gardiner and Clint Benedict.

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02-15-2012, 10:49 PM
  #178
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Originally Posted by DaveG View Post
Lada Togliatti selects W Joe Klukay



4 time cup champ and regarded as one of the best defensive forwards of all time.


Great pick, he was targeted for my 3rd line.

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02-15-2012, 10:51 PM
  #179
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I don't know why Metz always goes before Klukay. I view them as very even players, but Klukay can play both wings, which should in theory make him more valuable. What am I missing?

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02-15-2012, 10:51 PM
  #180
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Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
Well, at least we know one person who hasn't been reading profiles of Charlie Gardiner and Clint Benedict.
No kidding. I've read so much about Benedict, Vezina, Gardiner, etc., so much praise for these guys.

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02-15-2012, 10:58 PM
  #181
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Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
Was Hainsworth any better than league average in playoff GAA outside 1930? I know one of the criticisms of Hainsworth is that he usually led the league in GAA in the regular season but often couldn't maintain it in the playoffs (1930 excepted obviously).
Well at least we know one person who hasn't bothered to check Hockey reference on Hainsworth.

He led the regular season twice and led the playoffs once in GAA...



Quote:
Well, at least we know one person who hasn't been reading profiles of Charlie Gardiner and Clint Benedict.

Quote:
Hainsworth held the Bruins to a single goal in each road game but his teammates failed to light the lamp at the other end of the ice and the series reverted to the Forum, with Boston holding a 2-0 lead.
Quote:
Two nights later, at Madison Square Garden, Hainsworth blanked the Rangers 2-0, putting the Habs through to the finals where they’d face the NHL’s acknowledged powerhouse.

Quote:
Cool and unflappable, the 5-foot-6, 150-pounder stood tall in the net, establishing new benchmarks of excellence for the rest of the league. To put it simply, Hainsworth could stop the puck. He often did it for entire games, piling up shutouts the way other netminders accumulated victories.


Playing when an NHL season totaled 44 games, Hainsworth recorded 14 whitewashes in his rookie year and 13 the next. In 1928-29, he recorded 22 shutouts, allowing only 43 goals over the course of the entire season.

The Canadiens had provided a trophy, named in memory of their first superstar goaltender, to be given to the top goaltender in the NHL. George Hainsworth promptly won the Vézina Trophy the first three years it was awarded.

The Stanley Cup was Hainsworth’s next reward for his continued contributions to the team, both as a goaltender and as a steadying influence on his teammates.

With the mercurial Howie Morenz leading the attack and Hainsworth calmly frustrating enemy efforts, the Canadiens won their third Stanley Cup in the spring of 1930. The following season finished with the same result.


Prior to the start of the 1932-33 season, Hainsworth’s teammates showed him how important he was to the Canadiens and selected him as their captain.

Traded to Toronto for Lorne Chabot before the 1933-34 season, Hainsworth returned to finish his career in Montreal, playing a handful of games and recording his final shutout in the 1936-37 campaign.

Over seven decades have passed since George Hainsworth last put on a Canadiens sweater but he still remains among the very best of all time.

It is safe to say that nobody will ever surpass his NHL record of 22 shutouts in one season. His 75 shutouts as a Hab still tops the team’s all-time list and likely will for the foreseeable future. No goaltender in Canadiens history with more than one game to his credit has allowed fewer goals per game than Hainsworth’s career mark of 1.75.

It will take 12 consecutive victories for him to be replaced as the goaltender with the longest winning streak in Habs history, and almost six complete games of netminding perfection are required to overtake Hainsworth’s 343:05 shutout record.

George Hainsworth died following an automobile accident in 1950, at age 55. He was posthumously inducted to the Hockey Hall of Fame in 1961

Quote:
George Hainsworth was one of hockey's dominant goaltenders of the 1920s and 1930s and his netminding heroics became a legacy that lasted many years after he retired. He appeared relaxed while performing between the pipes, as though giving a minimum of effort. His laid-back approach and exceptional puck-stopping ability continually frustrated opposing players
Quote:
and he added another honour to his portfolio with an Allan Cup triumph in 1918.
Quote:
Western Canada benefited from Hainsworth's professional debut. He spent three years with the Saskatoon Crescents of the WCHL/WHL before becoming a legend in the NHL. In 1924-25, he led the club to a second-place finish in the regular-season standings. This strong team also featured the likes of Corb Denneny as well as Bill and Bun Cook. Hainsworth's goals-against mark of 2.70 was bettered only by XXXXXX of the Victoria Cougars. The Crescents met the favored Cougars in the playoffs. Hainsworth was strong but the Saskatoon club lost a tough series by a 6-4 aggregate score.

Quote:
George was a huge contributor to the back to back Stanley Cup that the Canadiens won in 1930 and 1931. In those two playoff seasons he led the league in games played, games won, minutes played, and shutouts. In the 1929-30 playoffs he also posted a league leading GAA of 0.75!
Quote:
During his career, Hainsworth was voted to the WHL All Star Team in 1926, won the Vezina Trophy 3 consecutive times in 1927, 1928 and 1929 and played in the NHL All Star Game in 1934. Hainsworth wasn't flashy and didn't put on a show for the fans. He simply stopped shots from the most dangerous players of his era, and did it day in day out better than anyone else

- http://couchpotatohockey.com/Players...rth_George.asp


Last edited by markrander87: 02-15-2012 at 11:05 PM.
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Old
02-15-2012, 11:03 PM
  #182
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Quote:
Originally Posted by markrander87 View Post
Well at least we know one person who hasn't bothered to check Hockey reference on Hainsworth.

He led the regular season twice and led the playoffs once in GAA...
Thanks for reminding us that so much of the case for Hainsworth rests on two consecutive regular seasons.

He actually has 3 Vezinas for being part of the team that led the league in GAA, maybe that's what I was thinking of.

What is the source for those quotes? Judging from how generic they are, I'd guess legends of hockey or ourcandiens or Pelletier. There really isn't anything in them about Hainsworth being the key to his team in the playoffs.

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02-15-2012, 11:05 PM
  #183
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Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
I don't know why Metz always goes before Klukay. I view them as very even players, but Klukay can play both wings, which should in theory make him more valuable. What am I missing?
From what I understand, Metz could too.

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Old
02-15-2012, 11:07 PM
  #184
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Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
Thanks for reminding us that so much of the case for Hainsworth rests on two consecutive regular seasons.

He actually has 3 Vezinas for being part of the team that led the league in GAA, maybe that's what I was thinking of.

What is the source for those quotes? Judging from how generic they are, I'd guess legends of hockey or ourcandiens or Pelletier. There really isn't anything in them about Hainsworth being the key to his team in the playoffs.

Keep reading...

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02-15-2012, 11:15 PM
  #185
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********************

Ask and you shall receive BW:

Quote:
In the 1930 Stanley Cup playoffs Montreal Canadiens' Hall of Fame goaltender George Hainsworth set the now still standing 81-year old record for the longest shut-out streak in post season play at 270:08. It began on March 28th after he gave up a goal to XXXXXXXX of the New York Rangers at 15:34 of the first period of game one of a best-of-three semi final series, the only goal he allowed in the tilt which was won by the Habs, 2-1, at 8:52 of the fourth overtime. Hainsworth entered the second game of the set with a 113:18 shutout streak which he extended to 173:18 on March 30 in a 2-0 shut-out which sent the Habs on to a best-of-three final series with the defending Champion Boston Bruins. Hainsworth pitched another shut-out in the first game of that series which Montreal won, 3-0, and held Boston off the board in game two until the Bruins' Eddie Shore finally ended it at 16:50 of the second period to give Hainsworth a remarkable four-and-a-half hours of playing time without allowing a goal. The Canadiens eventually won the game, 4-3, to capture the Cup.

Is 81 years a big enough sample size??

-http://www.hockeybuzz.com/blog.php?post_id=35209




Quote:
In 1929-30, Hainsworth helped the Canadiens win their third Stanley Cup, defeating the Boston Bruins in a two game series. The following year, in an expanded playoff format, Hainsworth was heroic once more as the Canadiens held on to their title after falling behind 2-1 in games against the Chicago Blackhawks. The Habs took the five game series 3-2, and Hainsworth allowed only 8 goals in the series

- http://www.habseyesontheprize.com/20...1927-1933.html

Quote:
Hainsworth replaced the legendary Vezina in nets and won the the three first Vezina trophies as the goalie with the best goals against average in the league.

Hainsworth lead the Canadiens to back to back Stanley Cup championships in 1930 and 1931. The next season, his last in Montreal, he was made team captain.
http://*******************/articles/...istory/page/13


Quote:
Names such as Hainsworth, Bruneteau and Hill endure in NHL playoff records

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

By NEIL STEVENS

(CP) - Some NHL playoff records might never be broken.

Credit such men as George Hainsworth, XXXXX and XXXXX for enduring feats. Hainsworth, tending goal for Montreal in 1930, posted the longest shutout sequence in Stanley Cup history - 270 minutes eight seconds. He helped the Canadiens win the title that year and again in 1931.


The five-foot-six goalie from Toronto helped make defence so dominant that the rules were changed to allow forward passing.
- http://www.hockeyforum.com/nhl-forum...f-records.html


Last edited by markrander87: 02-15-2012 at 11:31 PM.
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02-15-2012, 11:16 PM
  #186
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Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
Thanks for reminding us that so much of the case for Hainsworth rests on two consecutive regular seasons.

He actually has 3 Vezinas for being part of the team that led the league in GAA, maybe that's what I was thinking of.

What is the source for those quotes? Judging from how generic they are, I'd guess legends of hockey or ourcandiens or Pelletier. There really isn't anything in them about Hainsworth being the key to his team in the playoffs.
http://couchpotatohockey.com/Players...rth_George.asp

No idea where he got his information from, but I imagine he was just looking at stats and saying "OMGSTATSSOGOODHESOGOOD!" kind of thing. Regardless, these aren't contemporary sources.

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02-15-2012, 11:18 PM
  #187
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So who else finished ahead of him?
undrafted starter and a goalie who played 10 games

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Originally Posted by jarek View Post
Because Parent had several other really good seasons.
parent's sv%
(from hockeydb.com):
'66: .898 -- (9th)
'67: .890 -- (10th)

(calculated by seventieslord)
'68: .925 -- (4th)
'69: .925 -- (3rd)
'70: .921 -- (3rd)
'71: .914 -- (9th)
'72: .915 -- (6th)
'74: .933 -- (1st)
'75: .918 -- (2nd)
'76: .907 -- (missed most of the season)
'77: .899 -- (11th)
'78: .912 -- (3rd)
'79: .893 -- (8th)


parent also faced a high number of PP's, especially in his prime in philadelphia. flyers were SH more often than any other team in every season from '74-'79, sometimes by very large margins.

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02-15-2012, 11:24 PM
  #188
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And Clarke wasn't always on the ice to kill them, as he regularly had 80+ PIMs, and a few times well over 100.

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02-15-2012, 11:30 PM
  #189
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I don't see why we are discussing Parent as a point of comparison. Parent has one of the most strange and unique career arcs of any player. Seems like a poor point of comparison.

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02-15-2012, 11:34 PM
  #190
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Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
I don't know why Metz always goes before Klukay. I view them as very even players, but Klukay can play both wings, which should in theory make him more valuable. What am I missing?
It should also be pointed out that multiple retro-Selke's awarded to Metz were during war years

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02-15-2012, 11:36 PM
  #191
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Originally Posted by markrander87 View Post
So what is your point?

Agreed Parent had the better 2 year peak between the two.

My arguement is that Hainsworths 1930 playoffs was the single best playoffs of all time for a goaltender, and Hainsworths career after the age of 30 looks similar to that of Parents.

Why don't you post the above chart for Parent?

If you'd like to bring up GAA, we may as well discuss Hainsworth having the 2nd best GAA of all time.
My point is that even his 0.75 GAA, while very good, is not that much better than others were posting at the time. Giving up 1 goal in a game was better than the average in the 1930 playoffs, but giving up 2 was worse than the average. Giving up 3 goals in a game was above the average for both teams in a game.

Goalies with GAA of 0.40 and 1.05 lost series. Giving up 3 or 5 goals in a series was not actually very good.

His 0.75 GAA in 1930 is very good, but the average was only 1.48. Sawchuk in 1952 had a 0.63 GAA when the average was 1.91.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jarek View Post
In the 1930 playoffs, the average goals per game for the entire league was 1.875. Hainsworth had a 0.75 GAA, or 40% of said average. This, also, was only over 6 games.

1974 playoffs: 2.88 GAA for the league, 2.02 for Parent, or 70% of the league average over 17 games.

1975 playoffs: 3.07 GAA for the league, 1.89 for Parent, 62% of league average over 15 games.

1930 GAA is actually 1.48 counting OT.

1974 GAA is actually 2.69 counting OT.

1975 GAA is actually 2.91 counting OT.

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02-15-2012, 11:40 PM
  #192
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Originally Posted by jarek View Post
http://couchpotatohockey.com/Players...rth_George.asp

No idea where he got his information from, but I imagine he was just looking at stats and saying "OMGSTATSSOGOODHESOGOOD!" kind of thing. Regardless, these aren't contemporary sources.
What about the other 10 sources I listed....


or the fact that he has the longest Shutout streak in NHL playoff history. I bet you didn't know that before tonight


I'm sure it's not legitimate though, I have no black and white newspaper clipping from the Laval sun to prove my findings.


Honeslty, these newspaper clippings you are in love with are written by whom exactly??

I know for a fact sports writers in my local paper are out to lunch for a lot of topics. Are we all buying into the fact that if some no name random writer for any 1930's newspaper is the way in which we prove people wrong?

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02-15-2012, 11:49 PM
  #193
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Originally Posted by BM67 View Post
1930 GAA is actually 1.48 counting OT.

1974 GAA is actually 2.69 counting OT.

1975 GAA is actually 2.91 counting OT.
I figured I did it wrong. That makes the percentages ~50% for Hainsworth, 75% for Parent in '74, and ~65% for Parent in '75.

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Originally Posted by markrander87 View Post
What about the other 10 sources I listed....


or the fact that he has the longest Shutout streak in NHL playoff history. I bet you didn't know that before tonight


I'm sure it's not legitimate though, I have no black and white newspaper clipping from the Laval sun to prove my findings.


Honeslty, these newspaper clippings you are in love with are written by whom exactly??

I know for a fact sports writers in my local paper are out to lunch for a lot of topics. Are we all buying into the fact that if some no name random writer for any 1930's newspaper is the way in which we prove people wrong?
At least said no name writer actually watched these players play.

As for the record, that's an incredible run, however, it is no more significant than Sam Gagner putting up 8 points in a game - in other words, a complete and total outlier that the player, in Hainsworth's case, never came close to reproducing, and in Gagner's case, will never come close to reproducing again.

As for your "sources", you've regurgitated a whole bunch of guys that concluded, likely based on stats, that Hainsworth was a key factor in the 1930's Canadiens cup run. Fine. No one is denying that he was. To what degree he was a key component is in question, and the contemporary writers of the day didn't heap the sort of praise on him that they did on guys like Vezina and Benedict (seriously, go read about Vezina, the guy was like a legend to the writers back then). I've already shown that it's dangerous to take such a small sample size at face value, given what the Leafs did to the Senators in 2001, and BM67 has shown that Hainsworth's numbers don't look all THAT impressive when compared to his contemporaries. They were great, yes, but I don't think anyone but you is prepared to start talking about "best of all time".

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02-15-2012, 11:53 PM
  #194
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I figured I did it wrong. That makes the percentages ~50% for Hainsworth, 75% for Parent in '74, and ~65% for Parent in '75.



At least said no name writer actually watched these players play.

As for the record, that's an incredible run, however, it is no more significant than Sam Gagner putting up 8 points in a game - in other words, a complete and total outlier that the player, in Hainsworth's case, never came close to reproducing, and in Gagner's case, will never come close to reproducing again.

As for your "sources", you've regurgitated a whole bunch of guys that concluded, likely based on stats, that Hainsworth was a key factor in the 1930's Canadiens cup run. Fine. No one is denying that he was. To what degree he was a key component is in question, and the contemporary writers of the day didn't heap the sort of praise on him that they did on guys like Vezina and Benedict (seriously, go read about Vezina, the guy was like a legend to the writers back then). I've already shown that it's dangerous to take such a small sample size at face value, given what the Leafs did to the Senators in 2001, and BM67 has shown that Hainsworth's numbers don't look all THAT impressive when compared to his contemporaries. They were great, yes, but I don't think anyone but you is prepared to start talking about "best of all time".
Did you hear that guys...

Everything we post from LOH, GHL, our canadiens history etc... has been deemed not valid.

Reasoning: They are written by "A whole bunch of guys that concluded, likely based on stats"


You're 100% right, George Hainsworth setting shutout records is a complete outlier...


Carry on.


Last edited by markrander87: 02-15-2012 at 11:58 PM.
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02-15-2012, 11:57 PM
  #195
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I said I could see the case for Hainsworth over Worsley as they were the two I tried to choose between. There's not really a slamdunk difference between the goalies in these tiers so I try my best to be reasonable. That said I obviously chose Gump for a reason and I believe he's better. Hainsworth's performances look nice with the lower-scoring era but the Gumper peformed better in the playoffs. He led the playoffs in GAA and SV% twice when he won the Cup in 1965 and 1966, and finished second in each category in his Cup-winning performance in 1968 behind one Bernie Parent whose Flyers didn't make it out of the first round.

I'll take those finishes over Hainsworth's one superlative Cup win, and another that compares to Gump's '68 playoffs.

Gump's playoff numbers with SV% included in the format BM67 used earlier:

Year Worsley Top GAA Cup winner
1956 4.67 1.80 1.80
1957 3.99 1.66 1.66
1958 4.60 1.94 1.94
1962 3.28 2.07 2.07
1965 1.68 1.68 1.68
1966 1.99 1.99 1.99
1968 1.88 1.35 1.88
1969 2.27 1.42 1.42
1970 4.67 1.48 2.23
1971 3.25 2.19 3.00
1972 2.16 1.86 2.61


Year Worsley Top SV% Cup winner
1956 .851 .923 .923
1957 .888 .933 .933
1958 .873 .937 .937
1962 .914 .927 .927
1965 .936 .936 .936
1966 .931 .931 .931
1968 .930 .963 .930
1969 .921 .953 .953
1970 .880 .935 .925
1971 .888 .928 .914
1972 .935 .936 .915


Last edited by Rob Scuderi: 02-16-2012 at 12:02 AM.
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02-16-2012, 12:01 AM
  #196
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Originally Posted by markrander87 View Post
Did you hear that guys...

Everything we post from LOH, GHL, our canadiens history etc... has been deemed not valid.

Reasoning: They are written by "A whole bunch of guys that concluded, likely based on stats"


You're 100% right, George Hainsworth setting shutout records is a complete outlier...


Carry on.
This is why I think you're such a cutey. You somehow manage to come to the most ridiculous conclusions based on what I say, and it seems like I'm the only one you do this to. It really is quite amusing.

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02-16-2012, 12:13 AM
  #197
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Originally Posted by nik jr View Post
parent also faced a high number of PP's, especially in his prime in philadelphia. flyers were SH more often than any other team in every season from '74-'79, sometimes by very large margins.
I'm shocked that it took this long for this point to be brought up. Another thing to consider, who was the Flyers' number 1 defenseman? Jimmy Watson. Where did he get picked in the ATD? 310. And I'm not so sure he deserves to be picked that high. I love Jimmy, he runs the local rink that I played hockey my entire life out of, but I'm not so sure he's even that good. A case could be made for a number of the defensemen on that team for being the "best". Here is a list of teams that were repeat cup champions, their #1 defenseman, and where he was picked in the draft(not counting per-consolidation:

1930 & 1931 Canadiens: Sylvio Mantha(147)
1936 & 1937 Red Wings: Ebbie Goodfellow(126)
1947, 1948 & 1949 Maple Leafs: Gus Mortson/Jimmy Thomson(233, 200 respectively)
1954 & 1955 Red Wings: Red Kelly(18)
1956-1960 Canadiens: Doug Harvey(5)
1962, 1963 & 1964 Maple Leafs: Tim Horton(43)
1965 & 1966 Canadiens: Jacques Laperriere(119)
1968 & 1969 Canadiens: Jacques Laperriere(119)
1974 & 1975 Flyers: Jimmy Watson(310)
1976-1979 Canadiens: Larry Robinson(23)
1980-1983 Islanders: Denis Potvin(10)
1984 & 1985 Oilers: Paul Coffey(33)
1987 & 1988 Oilers: Paul Coffey(33)
1991 & 1992 Penguins: Paul Coffey/Larry Murphy(33 & 139)
1997 & 1998 Red Wings: Nicklas Lidstrom(11)

With the exception of Sylvio Mantha's Canadiens and Potvin's Islanders(although one guy will likely be taken soon, well before he deserves to be and I'll highly criticize that pick when it comes), I believe every other "dynasty" on here(except the Flyers of course) has had other defensemen besides those listed chosen. Baun, Pronovost, Savard, Lapointe, Fetisov, Tremblay, Johnson, and Talbot are just the guys that come to mind that played with these guys. The Flyers will probably have two more defensemen taken in the ATD, likely two 3rd pairing guys. Mantha will have at least one more, Potvin will have at least two more. This Flyers defense was a group of no-names. ON TOP of the fact that the Flyers took obscene amounts of penalties, in the 2 cup years, they were shorthanded 888 times compared to the league average of 552. So basically, for every 100 power plays the Flyers had, they had 161 penalty kills. In the playoffs, they had a combined 913 penalty minutes in those 2 years to their Finals opponents 619(including the "Big Bad Bruins"). Sorry to use 2 different metrics, but that's what's available. Parent was absolutely integral to that team. I also found a tidbit from a seventies bio saying the Flyers were 16% better than average. Why do you think that was? These stars on defense? Clarke certainly helped, but a great deal of credit has to go to Parent here.

Edit: Just realized Mantha's Canadiens and Hainsworth's Canadiens are the same team. Either way, my point still stands that Hainsworth had a better defense in front of him, and was playing in much different situations and circumstances compared to Parent.


Last edited by BillyShoe1721: 02-16-2012 at 12:40 AM.
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02-16-2012, 12:17 AM
  #198
jarek
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Holy ****. I never realized just how lopsided the Flyers' penalty taking rate was compared to everyone else.

Are those penalty taking rates with or without them calculated in the average? That amount of penalties will greatly skew the average.

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02-16-2012, 12:20 AM
  #199
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The April 4, 1930 Montreal Gazette had an article summarizing the performance of the members of the Canadiens club. There were some complimentary statements about Hainsworth's performance. See page 21.

http://news.google.com/newspapers?ni...rontpage&hl=en

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02-16-2012, 12:28 AM
  #200
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jarek View Post
Holy ****. I never realized just how lopsided the Flyers' penalty taking rate was compared to everyone else.

Are those penalty taking rates with or without them calculated in the average? That amount of penalties will greatly skew the average.
That's actually with the Flyers in the average, so the average is actually less than that. I ran the numbers, the averages without the Flyers are:

73-74: 246(not 257)
74-75: 306(not 316)

Not a large drop, but a drop.

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