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Another player to join the rebellion

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Old
10-28-2004, 12:31 PM
  #1
pld459666
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Another player to join the rebellion

http://www.tsn.ca/nhl/news_story.asp...54&hubName=nhl


From TSN.

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10-28-2004, 12:41 PM
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True Blue
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Off course he also states"

"Commodore, while accepting a cap in theory, also wants a deal that will be fair for both sides. "There's different kinds of caps and it's got to be a realistic one. You can't cap it up at $30 million, we're over that. It's got to be realistic so both sides are making money.""

Here's the thing. If $301m is unrealistic, then what is? To me, it is no less than $10-15m more. But Bettman has not changed his mantra from the $31 or bust.
Commodore also talks about "different kinds of caps". To me, that is not necesarily siding with Bettman's hard cap concept. You can view almost any drag on salaries as a cap. In some eyes, a luxury tax is a form of a cap.
Not taking up the all free market stance is not siding with Bettman.

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10-28-2004, 12:54 PM
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Who knows the answer, TB...

while I'm against the cap, I am for hockey being played this season. Perhaps you have a soft cap/luxury tax at around $40 million, with a hard cap somewhere around $50-55 million. Again, I can't state this enough, the $224 million in losses is not a number that should be focused on as abuot 40% of that is from 3 wealthy teams with other sources of income (the health of the league is not dependent on the Rangers making $30 million to the bottom line, it's about keeping teams such as Calgary, Tampa, Florida, Carolina (shudder the tought) and others in the black and bringing the competitive landscape to a more even keel.

It's just so tough when you can't trust your partner, and personally, I don't know how you trust these owners, nor do I know how one can trust Bettman. I still haven't heard one thing come out of his mouth as to how to increase league-wide revenues, or how to make the game better. What is his job description again?

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10-28-2004, 01:02 PM
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his first quote was

"I don't want to spend however long my career lasts playing here in the American Hockey League (with Lowell), so I think whatever it takes. It's got to be give and take on both sides, not one side can be making all the money. But if (a salary cap is) what it takes -- the sport has to go on -- so I'm going to say, yeah.

That to me is saying yes to a cap.


TB, you also have stop harping on the 31 million dollar cap. It's a number thrown out by Bettman. The only real item he is truly worried about is getting a cap on salaries.

Once they get the YES to that demand 2 things will be most evident 1) the owners will feel like they won this "fight" and 2)the cap itself will be anywhere between 10-15 million higher with a demand from the players of a floor of no less than 20-25 million.

The league wants salaries to tie into revenues, the 31 million is an average that the league came up with but takes nothing else into consideration. That's the ideal solution for the owners, we all should know by now that if if's and buts were candy and nuts we'd all have a merry christmas. The league will get their cap, the MAJORITY of players are starting to speak their minds, here's an example and this should not be overlooked one bit.

"I don't think it's being handled well at all. The thing is, you look at the PA and who's in charge ... it's all the guys that have made $30 million playing this game. If there's never another game of hockey ... and they don't make another cent playing in the NHL, they're gonna be all right.

"Sure, they have their views but I think, as far as guys in charge of the PA, there should be people in my situation so they get everybody's perspective. There's lots of guys in my shoes that if we miss a couple of years, that's a huge deal."

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10-28-2004, 01:03 PM
  #5
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wow another player speaks up but the union is so strong :lol

when your own membership calls for contraction you had to know the fringe nhl players were going to get antsy. this union is a joke.

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10-28-2004, 01:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Son of Steinbrenner
wow another player speaks up but the union is so strong :lol

when your own membership calls for contraction you had to know the fringe nhl players were going to get antsy. this union is a joke.
and do you think the owners are in complete agreement ???

Owners and front office personnel have a $1 million fine hanging over their heads for making any comments.

If the NHLPA had the same fine hanging over the heads of its membership I don't think you'd hear a peep from the union members.

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10-28-2004, 01:25 PM
  #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by John Flyers Fan
and do you think the owners are in complete agreement ???

Owners and front office personnel have a $1 million fine hanging over their heads for making any comments.

If the NHLPA had the same fine hanging over the heads of its membership I don't think you'd hear a peep from the union members.
owners may not be in complete agreement but the players screwed themselves by talking about contraction. when somebody like chelios says it should be done what message does that send to the fringe nhl player? (roster spots 16-23)

this is why there is so much chirping and this is why the players have screwed themselves. i'm a players guy i hope there is no cap and i hope the players take the owners to the cleaners but the fact remains that almost everyday a new player makes a comment.

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10-28-2004, 01:49 PM
  #8
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[QUOTE=pld459666That to me is saying yes to a cap.
[/QUOTE]
Yes, but I think that it is important to point out that he is not talking about Bettman's cap or even a hard cap per se. Essentially all Commodore is saying is that he would agree to a drag on players salaries.

"TB, you also have stop harping on the 31 million dollar cap. It's a number thrown out by Bettman. The only real item he is truly worried about is getting a cap on salaries.

Once they get the YES to that demand 2 things will be most evident 1) the owners will feel like they won this "fight" and 2)the cap itself will be anywhere between 10-15 million higher with a demand from the players of a floor of no less than 20-25 million."

That's part of the problem, PLD. If the players were told that they cap would be around $45m, I think that hockey would be being played. That's NOT what Bettman is saying. He has said NOTHING to indicate that he is willing to move off that number. The other HUGE problem that no one is talking about is the one that I posted on the other week from an ESPN article. According to that article, and I agree, there have been several sources that have said that there is a group of owners who would still vote to cancel the season if the NHLPA was to walk into Bettman' office today and agree to every single one of his demands. That, to me, is an even bigger problem becuase that states that there is no bargaining in good faith.

"when your own membership calls for contraction you had to know the fringe nhl players were going to get antsy. this union is a joke."

SOS, you are speaking your opinion and nothing more. Contraction is a viable option. One that will not only increase revenues dramatically, but also (and just as dramatically) increase the product of the game. Players know this. The other fact of the matter is that contraction would alleviate the calls for a cap. And let's face it. With no contraction, there are several teams that will hemorage money no matter how low a cap there is. They are playing in markets that they clearly do not belong in.

"what message does that send to the fringe nhl player? "

The sad and factual answer is "Who cares?" They are fringe players for a reason. They are a dime a dozen and can be found anywhere. They are not whom the fans come to see. The league is not run by 4th liners. Those 4th liners can be found growing on every tree. Any business is run by those that knwo what they are doing. The mail room clerks have very little to say how a corporation is run.

"but the fact remains that almost everyday a new player makes a comment."

And if the NHLPA had the same fine in place, then you would not hear as much as a peep from any player and would thus have no fodder for a discussion like this. On the other hand, if the owners did not have a fine in place, then you would hear as many comments as the players (proportionally speaking off course).

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Old
10-28-2004, 02:13 PM
  #9
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Tb

I negotiate things for a living, you stand fast on the things that are not negotiable, and you make NO mention of the things you will negotiate on, that's the other guys job to figure out.

Negotiating this way you, more often than not, get not only what you were looking for but then some.

If the league had said that we want a cap at 45 million, the NHLPA would want 55 million.

Start low and let them work you up higher. Not the other way around, that way you wind up giving them your first born and best mule.

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Old
10-28-2004, 02:22 PM
  #10
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another thing

Quote:
Originally Posted by True Blue
"but the fact remains that almost everyday a new player makes a comment."

And if the NHLPA had the same fine in place, then you would not hear as much as a peep from any player and would thus have no fodder for a discussion like this. On the other hand, if the owners did not have a fine in place, then you would hear as many comments as the players (proportionally speaking off course).

I agree, and we have seen owners speaking out and getting fined, but the comments being made show support for the cause, not against the cause.

In fact the Atlanta owner made the mistake of letting the cat out of the bag about replacement players. Whiel publically they "have no intention of going that route" I'm sure that they are planning for exactly that tact to take come next September.

The players that have been speaking out show cracks in the NHLPA's foundation, the fringe player. It is the fringe players that make up the majority of the NHLPA and when we have enough that have the smarts enough to start opening their mouths in unison we will have Hockey again.

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10-28-2004, 02:27 PM
  #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pld459666
I agree, and we have seen owners speaking out and getting fined, but the comments being made show support for the cause, not against the cause.

In fact the Atlanta owner made the mistake of letting the cat out of the bag about replacement players. Whiel publically they "have no intention of going that route" I'm sure that they are planning for exactly that tact to take come next September.

The players that have been speaking out show cracks in the NHLPA's foundation, the fringe player. It is the fringe players that make up the majority of the NHLPA and when we have enough that have the smarts enough to start opening their mouths in unison we will have Hockey again.
exactly players 16-23 are not making a ton of money and these are the players that are speaking up.

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10-28-2004, 02:51 PM
  #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pld459666
I agree, and we have seen owners speaking out and getting fined, but the comments being made show support for the cause, not against the cause.

In fact the Atlanta owner made the mistake of letting the cat out of the bag about replacement players. Whiel publically they "have no intention of going that route" I'm sure that they are planning for exactly that tact to take come next September.
Owners speaking for the cause is right, unless you look at the comments made by the LA Kings owner. He said that every day that hockey is not played, he is loosing a ton of money. This may not speak directly "against the cause", but his statement DID present a problem. How could the Kings be loosing money when they are one of the franshises that was supposed be loosing less money with a lockout than without?
What the Atlanta owner said will come back and bite Bettman and the owners in the arse when Bettman tries to declare an impasse. Want to bet that those comments will be locked away and presented as evidence that Bettman is not negoatiating in good faith? If the courts in the US rule that there is no good faith barbaining by Bettman, kiss the thought of an impasse good-bye. Not to mention that Canadian laws are even stricter. Again, where is Vancouver going to play or are they just going to fold?

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