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Trade Proposal Thread 9.0: ..."You want to rip apart this team and do WHAT?"

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Old
02-18-2012, 03:06 PM
  #351
bernmeister
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Originally Posted by Lion Hound View Post
2ND MOVE...Rangers land Carter and part with Dubi
To NYR : $5.27 Total Cap Hit
Jeff Carter 27 Years Old C $5.27 Cap Hit
2012 7th round draft pick

To Columbus : $5.2 Total Cap Hit.
Brandon Dubinsky 25 Years Old LW/C $4.2 Mil cap hit.
Christian Thomas 19 Year Old LW $1 Mil cap hit
2012 4th Round Draft Pick

The Benefits for Jackets:
They rebuild with a core of gritty, talented young players who are limited in icetime now due to the talent on the teams they currently play for. Specifically JVR, and Schenn. Both highly touted prospects that are both doing well for their respective clubs. Plus…Adding Jagr will put some ***** in the seats as he is one of the most recognizeable names in the NHL. People will come to see him. Adding Dubi, will give them the moxy of a young kid with great leadership qualities who has been overshadowed after the acquisition of Brad Richards. Think about it…When Richards came to NY it was certain that he was coming here to play with Gaborik. They never clicked. Instead it was Steps who got the honors. Richards and Callahan had almost instant Chemistry, while Dubi couldn’t gel with either of the two styles of the top two lines. I think Dubi is a great puck possession guy, with the right linemates. Dubi and Jagr would likely gel together in Columbus like they did in NY. The difference being…Dubi was what a 19 year old rookie when he was paired with Jagr? Now, I think Jags probably has a trade clause so that might hapmer this, but a good GM manuevers around these issues.

The Benefits for the Flyers : Flyers solidify a vet defenseman with an affordable cap hit to now play 2nd pairing that can log minutes. More importantly for the the Flyers top 6 is now deadly Hartnell/Giroux/Nash/Simmonds/Briere/Talbot. That is a serious cup contending top 6. They are big, fast, physical, and more importantly they all have talent. Nash i believe would waive for Philly and the possiblity of Nash playing alongside either of Giroux or Briere will probably be very apealing to him. I think Holmgren gets done as he seems to me to be a guy that is willing to roll the dice more so to get what he feels his team needs. Sather on theother hand I think will not part with the youth it will take to land Nash.

The Benefits for the Rangers :
Rangers want Nash. Carter is NOT Nash. But Carter is the affordable solution. At $5.2 mil, he $2.6 million dollars in cap hit cheaper than Rick Nash is. In Carter the club adds a guy that averaged 34 goals a season.(Similar to Nash) Rangers get their goal scorer. They also, add a player that can take the draws.Carter is what 6'3, 6’4 198lbs and can skate. He also loves to shoot the puck. John Tortorella loves players that aren’t afraid to shoot the puck! Now…I am huge Brandon Dubinsky fan. For the record, I DON’T want to see him traded unless Bobby Ryan was the return. But…Its painfully apparent that he has struggled this season, and with all the talk of big trade on the horizon I think Dubi is the key cog. Plus…With the resurgence of the Ducks, im starting to think that Ryan only gets dealt in a deal that Sather is going to be well…Uncomfortable with. Glen doesn’t like to lose trades or give up too much. I remember one GM once said…”Glen Sather wants to win every trade 10-1” That’s something you want in a GM IMO. I think there wa definately talks with the Ducks on Ryan, and im thinking they stalled out when Sather wouldn't part with MDZ and Dubi in a deal. This season I think Glen is going to move Dubinsky, and the best player he can get in return without offering up Kreider or MDZ is Jeff Carter. I think Glen gets Carter on the cheap and used Dubi to get it done.
Kudos for an insightful post with proof same is cap compliant not requiring other moves just to get in under cap.

That said have been opposed to Carter for usual reasons, biggest of which is we will need flexibility to sign a lot of guys, and another big contract is a real problem there.

However, if BOTH he is discounted to that particular package AND we are moving Dubi AND keeping our higher picks,

then we have effectively gotten Carter at such a discount, that if we were to choose him to move in a year or 2, we're not giving up money already spent on the invisible credit card, what we have to recover in trade is lower if his demand is down.

There's also a chance that if Carter does well, maybe we resign Gaborik another 2 years when he's up reduced to 6.25m per, both because we have a cheaper fallback if Gabby walks and if Gabby wants a productive line mate, he may have to take a little less for Rangers to stay under cap.

This assumes, that if the new CBA allows us to shed one contract at, say, 10 cents on the dollar we just cut Richards + his 9 mil per and re-sign him for less

But, the danger is will Carter turn into another Murdoch instead of a Bossy?

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02-18-2012, 03:10 PM
  #352
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Originally Posted by bleedblue94 View Post
yes good years from 4 forwards. to me thats not enough for a team who is looking to win a championship. if youre a team looking to get into the playoffs and make some noise then sure, but we should be looking at winning a championship. we have the depth to start making the trades needed to win. this team as constructed will not win a championship this year. the east has been very soft this regular season: phili no goaltending and no consistency; pitt and wash with allot of injuries, if we play any of those teams and they have their you know what back together we will have trouble. not to mention that any of the top 6 teams in the west would give us a serious run. van and detriot in particular would wear us right out
Every team has it's weaknesses. Pittsburgh is apparently injury prone, Philly has poor goaltending. We don't have top 5 scoring. You play with what you have.

this team isn't just making playoffs, there competing to be the best in the league, and more than a few analysts have picked them to win the cup.

Of course Detriot, Vancouver, or Boston would give us trouble. There the other 3 best teams in the league. Nothing against them would be easy. They'd be hard fought battles that we have just as good a chance of coming out of. You're never going to waltz toward a cup.

Just as I can't say "This team will win the cup", nobody else can say "This team can't win the cup." The team with one of if not the highest win percentage in the league has to be one of the favorites.

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02-18-2012, 03:14 PM
  #353
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Originally Posted by Callagraves View Post
Well it's not as if they're offering Carter or Nash for picks. I feel that we stand a better chance going forward with our own pieces than trading for Nash or Carter.

I'd be more willing to give up a piece or two for somebody like Ryan, but I still wouldn't mess with what I think is the best team in the league too much.



It took Gaborik 3 years to adopt the playing style, and I don't think this team needs another scorer. I've been hearing that since last season.

"We need one more scorer"
"Just one top 6 left wing"
"We need one pure scorer"

I disagree. We do not. We need a team that scores, a team that plays defense, and a team that wins. We win because the team is more than the sum of it's parts, not because we run up the score.

And regular season success, with the exception of Washington, regularly translates to post-season. They're playing the same game, with the same rules (except overtime). The difference is teams play harder.

We have scoring depth. We're not top-loaded. Nobody has a heart attack when our 4th line chips in a goal, and nobody jumps off a bridge if the top line doesn't.

The Rangers are the top team in the east. Not "The Rangers if they had one more scorer".

Bolstering the team by trading for players to take the spot of a non-core player is one thing (like a trade for a player like Gaustad) Messing with the larger, more important parts of the team is another thing entirely.
Disagree.
Sure, running up the score when we can and piling on is not a true sign of dominance, let alone sportsmanship if the opposition is truly pitiful.

But our problems include we are not balanced do not have enough scoring/sniper difference makers, and look stronger than we really are (not taking away from the fact we ARE genuinely strong and not a pretender) because of our G. It is short sighted, however, to put it all on Hank. This may not be the year to add, but as soon as possible we need a few improvements to get us over the top...

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02-18-2012, 03:19 PM
  #354
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Originally Posted by Callagraves View Post
Every team has it's weaknesses. Pittsburgh is apparently injury prone, Philly has poor goaltending. We don't have top 5 scoring. You play with what you have.

this team isn't just making playoffs, there competing to be the best in the league, and more than a few analysts have picked them to win the cup.

Of course Detriot, Vancouver, or Boston would give us trouble. There the other 3 best teams in the league. Nothing against them would be easy. They'd be hard fought battles that we have just as good a chance of coming out of. You're never going to waltz toward a cup.

Just as I can't say "This team will win the cup", nobody else can say "This team can't win the cup." The team with one of if not the highest win percentage in the league has to be one of the favorites.
it would be true if playoff hockey and matchups along with strategy were the same in the playoffs as they were in the regular season, but they are not.

one thing allot of people seem to ignore is this team wins on sheer will and intensity, things that generally are lacking from teams in the regular season. while im thrilled this team has that, what happens in the playoffs when all the other teams start focusing more and matching our intensity and will? im willing to bet this team as presently constructed is not as effective.

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02-18-2012, 03:22 PM
  #355
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Originally Posted by Callagraves View Post
You play with what you have.
that in a nut shell is the issue. its the wrong attitude when you have an opportunity to add what you are lacking....

and i dont care what "experts" are predicting. there is a reason they are on tv jabbering away to fill time between periods and not working in the front office of a team

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02-18-2012, 03:24 PM
  #356
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Originally Posted by bernmeister View Post
Disagree.
Sure, running up the score when we can and piling on is not a true sign of dominance, let alone sportsmanship if the opposition is truly pitiful.

But our problems include we are not balanced do not have enough scoring/sniper difference makers, and look stronger than we really are (not taking away from the fact we ARE genuinely strong and not a pretender) because of our G. It is short sighted, however, to put it all on Hank. This may not be the year to add, but as soon as possible we need a few improvements to get us over the top...
agreed

we have a window

we have needs

we have assets to fill those needs without bankrupting the organization

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02-18-2012, 03:24 PM
  #357
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Originally Posted by Callagraves View Post
Every team has it's weaknesses. Pittsburgh is apparently injury prone, Philly has poor goaltending. We don't have top 5 scoring. You play with what you have.

this team isn't just making playoffs, there competing to be the best in the league, and more than a few analysts have picked them to win the cup.

Of course Detriot, Vancouver, or Boston would give us trouble. There the other 3 best teams in the league. Nothing against them would be easy. They'd be hard fought battles that we have just as good a chance of coming out of. You're never going to waltz toward a cup.

Just as I can't say "This team will win the cup", nobody else can say "This team can't win the cup." The team with one of if not the highest win percentage in the league has to be one of the favorites.
I'm sorry, but this just doesn't make sense to me. I mean, the logical extension of what you're saying is that you wouldn't trade Dubi for anyone. Really? You wouldn't trade him for Malkin? You wouldn't trade him for Giroux? You wouldn't trade him for Datsyuk? (Obviously you see where I'm going with this.)

We all understand - and agree - that you can't rip out the guts of the locker room and trade like 3 or 4 pieces to perhaps marginally increase the overall talent quotient on the team. But, if all you have to do is move ONE player off the current squad plus prospects/picks for a SIGNIFICANTLY BETTER player at the same position, it's the overall value of the additional prospects/picks that determine whether or not you do the deal. The NHL player for NHL player component is a no-brainer. (Hell, the difference is why you have to add so much to the package in order to get the other team to do it!)

And to say "every team has its weaknesses" and use that as an excuse to stand pat when you can actually address those weaknesses just doesn't make sense.

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02-18-2012, 03:27 PM
  #358
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I'm sorry, but this just doesn't make sense to me. I mean, the logical extension of what you're saying is that you wouldn't trade Dubi for anyone. Really? You wouldn't trade him for Malkin? You wouldn't trade him for Giroux? You wouldn't trade him for Datsyuk? Obviously you see where I'm going with this.

We all understand - and agree - that you can't rip out the guts of the locker room and trade like 3 or 4 pieces to perhaps marginally increase the overall talent quotient on the team. But, if all you have to do is move ONE player off the current squad plus prospects/picks for a SIGNIFICANTLY BETTER player at the same position, it's the overall value of the additional prospects/picks that determine whether or not you do the deal. The NHL player for NHL player component is a no-brainer. (Hell, the difference is why you have to add so much to the package in order to get the other team to do it!)
and to go a step further, if taking one or even two pieces from the locker room destroys what has been built here than it simply wasnt really anything significant and everything we think we have with this team was just a house of cards. i believe this team has the fortitude to hold together and continue on its path even if moves are made and one or two people are gone

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02-18-2012, 03:45 PM
  #359
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and to go a step further, if taking one or even two pieces from the locker room destroys what has been built here than it simply wasnt really anything significant and everything we think we have with this team was just a house of cards. i believe this team has the fortitude to hold together and continue on its path even if moves are made and one or two people are gone
Yup. In fact, one of the signs of a good locker room is that it can survive these kinds of changes. Again, not complete upheavals, but one or two individual trades.

Also, on the point of chemistry: I do not deny that it can result in the whole being greater than the sum of its parts - and sometimes you actually need to make moves specifically to improve chemistry. But, by the same token, it is not the be-all, end-all. The Yankees in the late 70s ****ing HATED each other - it's well documented that there were distinct factions in the clubhouse. But they were a perennial contender for half a century and won multiple championships because their talent was more than enough to compensate for the fact that they didn't have as much chemistry as the teams they were competing against.

The Bronx Zoo is of course an extreme example and I'm not suggesting it's the ideal model to follow. All I'm saying is that if you can flip Dubinsky for a legit first line scoring winger without completely depleting the farm system in the process, you don't let concerns over that minor shift in chemistry stop you from making the move. It's not like we're talking about Callahan here.

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02-18-2012, 03:54 PM
  #360
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Yup. In fact, one of the signs of a good locker room is that it can survive these kinds of changes. Again, not complete upheavals, but one or two individual trades.

Also, on the point of chemistry: I do not deny that it can result in the whole being greater than the sum of its parts - and sometimes you actually need to make moves specifically to improve chemistry. But, by the same token, it is not the be-all, end-all. The Yankees in the late 70s ****ing HATED each other - it's well documented that there were distinct factions in the clubhouse. But they were a perennial contender for half a century and won multiple championships because their talent was more than enough to compensate for the fact that they didn't have as much chemistry as the teams they were competing against.

The Bronx Zoo is of course an extreme example and I'm not suggesting it's the ideal model to follow. All I'm saying is that if you can flip Dubinsky for a legit first line scoring winger without completely depleting the farm system in the process, you don't let concerns over that minor shift in chemistry stop you from making the move. It's not like we're talking about Callahan here.
Chemistry has little to do with like. You can have enormous chemistry with someone you dislike.

Obviously not apples to apples, but I used to play bass in a band where the guitar player was a dick. I didn't like him, our drummer didn't like him. But yet, we were awesome together when playing.

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02-18-2012, 03:57 PM
  #361
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Chemistry has little to do with like. You can have enormous chemistry with someone you dislike.

Obviously not apples to apples, but I used to play bass in a band where the guitar player was a dick. I didn't like him, our drummer didn't like him. But yet, we were awesome together when playing.
i think we have both been referring to off ice chemistry rather than on ice chemistry. truthfully duby hasnt shown significant on ice chemistry with very many people. he grinds

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02-18-2012, 03:59 PM
  #362
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i think we have both been referring to off ice chemistry rather than on ice chemistry. truthfully duby hasnt shown significant on ice chemistry with very many people. he grinds
Jagr, Callahan and Anisimov come to mind.

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02-18-2012, 04:00 PM
  #363
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Brendan Morrow?

Quote:
Morrow has been bothered by stiffness in his upper back and neck that make it painful at times and also make it difficult to turn his head. He has used rest and injections to deal with the problem for more than a year, but those solutions aren't working as well now.

``The injections were great at first, and they really solved the problem,'' Morrow said. ``But the first one lasted a year, and then the next one maybe five or six months, and then the next one a month or so, and then this last one maybe seven days. So we have to take a different approach to this.''

Morrow has had all sorts of treatment and has seen an ART (Active Release Therapist) specialist. He said he has talked to doctors and said he might simply have to relearn how to train and play.

``A lot of it is just putting a lot of wear and tear on it over the years and learning how to do things a different way,'' said Morrow, who has a tendency to throw himself into people who are trying to check him with a maneuver called ``the reversal.''

``But right now they're just recommending rest and therapy.''
http://starsblog.dallasnews.com/arch...least-a-c.html

This Brendan Morrow

IR since February 2.

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02-18-2012, 04:01 PM
  #364
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i think we have both been referring to off ice chemistry rather than on ice chemistry. truthfully duby hasnt shown significant on ice chemistry with very many people. he grinds
Exactly.

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Jagr, Callahan and Anisimov come to mind.
This year?

We're being told that Dubi shouldn't be traded right now, primarily for chemistry issues.

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02-18-2012, 04:01 PM
  #365
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I can't wait until 4pm February 27

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02-18-2012, 04:04 PM
  #366
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I can't wait until 4pm February 27
Me neither.

On Gaustad: I'm not sure why people are so in love with a player who has 0 goals in 38 playoff games. We need our bottom-6 stepping up in the postseason. Not sure he fits the bill. I'd take Brodziak's complete lack of experience in the playoffs over what Gaustad has shown.


What's your take on Brodziak RB?

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02-18-2012, 04:07 PM
  #367
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Jagr, Callahan and Anisimov come to mind.
calli arti and dubi had a half season run. theyve tried it several times isnce and nothing lasts. jagr i guess, but that was more out of desperation than anything. im talking substantial on ice chemistry. dubinsky is a banger with some offense in his game. he is NOT an offensive player. he is replaceable and for everyone complaining about nash being overpaid by 1-1.5mil and how they dont want him even though he represents something this team lacks, those same people are defending dubi even though he is also over paid by about 1-1.2mil although he is a replaceable grinder w some offense. on a championship team he is a 3rd liner. on an average team he is a second liner. i want my team to be a championship caliber which means dubi is pushed down the chart by more offensive pieces. at that point no one can argue he warrants his price tag

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02-18-2012, 04:07 PM
  #368
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Originally Posted by Tawnos View Post
Jagr, Callahan and Anisimov come to mind.
Getting OT here, but do many people actually think that Dubi and chemistry with Jagr?

From my view it was more a case of Jagr liked playing with Dubi cos Dubi got the puck, gave it Jagr whenever he demanded it and then let Jagr do his thing.

Just interested to know how other people saw it.

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02-18-2012, 04:09 PM
  #369
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Jagr, Callahan and Anisimov come to mind.
Add Boyle and Prust as of late. That line was our best against Washington last weekend and played pretty well against Philly and Boston too.

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02-18-2012, 04:10 PM
  #370
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Exactly.



This year?

We're being told that Dubi shouldn't be traded right now, primarily for chemistry issues.
My bad... I don't think of what you refer to as "off-ice chemistry" as chemistry at all. Dubinsky is a positive presence in the locker room. That's a big thing.

And he's shown chemistry with Callahan this year, at times. I think his chemistry with Boyle and Mitchell has been there. He hasn't really played with Anisimov at all. Keep in mind that his assist total is right in line with what we expect. It's his goal total that's down.

Also, even though he hasn't been producing the goals, a large part of Dubinsky's offensive game has always been board work. For the most part, he's been fine at that this year. He's shown plenty of chemistry with his linemates in the cycle (obviously, I reject the notion that a player grinding shows a lack of chemistry). It's beyond the cycle that we've seen the problems.

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02-18-2012, 04:12 PM
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Getting OT here, but do many people actually think that Dubi and chemistry with Jagr?

From my view it was more a case of Jagr liked playing with Dubi cos Dubi got the puck, gave it Jagr whenever he demanded it and then let Jagr do his thing.

Just interested to know how other people saw it.
See my point about chemistry in boardwork. Yeah, Jagr did a lot of the offensive lifting, but they had good chemistry along the boards, in the corner and behind the net.

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02-18-2012, 04:13 PM
  #372
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Add Boyle and Prust as of late. That line was our best against Washington last weekend and played pretty well against Philly and Boston too.
boyle and prust have chemistry. rupp, mitchel, arti, hags ect have all fit there and played well. thats a product or prust and boyle having chmistry and being easy to play with, not dubi having chemistry with them. and to defend dubi's lack of any substantial on ice chemistry with players currently on this team by referencing supposed chemistry with 4th liners makes my point for me. i dont hate dubi but the love fest for a player making 4.2 mil who grinds and does basically what prust does but maybe a notch more just doesnt make any sense, it makes less sense saying we need to keep him for chemistry reasons when he can be used to fill an obvious need that this team has..........

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02-18-2012, 04:18 PM
  #373
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boyle and prust have chemistry. rupp, mitchel, arti, hags ect have all fit there and played well. thats a product or prust and boyle having chmistry and being easy to play with, not dubi having chemistry with them. and to defend dubi's lack of any substantial on ice chemistry with players currently on this team by referencing supposed chemistry with 4th liners makes my point for me. i dont hate dubi but the love fest for a player making 4.2 mil who grinds and does basically what prust does but maybe a notch more just doesnt make any sense, it makes less sense saying we need to keep him for chemistry reasons when he can be used to fill an obvious need that this team has..........
It's not a love fest with Dubinsky. This is where you seem to lose sight of what the argument is.

We have a team that has been built to be better than the individual pieces that are on the team. Removing an integral part of that team, whether it's an offensive piece or not, risks losing what makes the team good. The worry about trading Dubinsky isn't about Dubinsky as an individual player. There isn't a single player on this team right now that I would consider "easily replaceable" for that reason.

In many people's opinions, including my own, plugging in Nash on LW where we once had Dubinsky probably won't make this team appreciably better even if he scores at a 50-goal+ pace.

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02-18-2012, 04:29 PM
  #374
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Originally Posted by bleedblue94 View Post
boyle and prust have chemistry. rupp, mitchel, arti, hags ect have all fit there and played well. thats a product or prust and boyle having chmistry and being easy to play with, not dubi having chemistry with them. and to defend dubi's lack of any substantial on ice chemistry with players currently on this team by referencing supposed chemistry with 4th liners makes my point for me. i dont hate dubi but the love fest for a player making 4.2 mil who grinds and does basically what prust does but maybe a notch more just doesnt make any sense, it makes less sense saying we need to keep him for chemistry reasons when he can be used to fill an obvious need that this team has..........
Have to disagree there. Dubi and Prust showed some good chemistry together when they played on Richards' line about two weeks ago. Boyle and Prust have chemistry but they've had issues putting the puck in the net all season. Once Dubinsky was added to that line, they've actually been able to score. He assisted on Prust's first goal in 48 games.

I've been disappointed with Dubinsky's production this season but this team is a sum of its parts and he fits in well. Tawnos worded it well in his post above.

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02-18-2012, 05:17 PM
  #375
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If I thought there was somebody available who fit the team better than Dubi, I'd probably be for it. Someone like Backes.

I'm a huge David Backes fan.

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