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10-13-2012, 05:59 PM
  #576
Sojourn
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Vatanen's ability to step into the NHL isn't going to be based around his production in the AHL. It's going to be the little things he does right, how well he can move the puck, and how he does in the D zone. The Ducks aren't looking for a PP specialist. They want a defenseman.

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10-14-2012, 05:20 AM
  #577
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Originally Posted by Sojourn View Post
Vatanen's ability to step into the NHL isn't going to be based around his production in the AHL. It's going to be the little things he does right, how well he can move the puck, and how he does in the D zone. The Ducks aren't looking for a PP specialist. They want a defenseman.
Vatanen is clear, 100% OFD thought, you cannot change him to DFD

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10-14-2012, 08:12 AM
  #578
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Vatanen is clear, 100% OFD thought, you cannot change him to DFD
Just like Timonen, he is one who is apt in his own zone as well. If need be he will take responsibility and be a two-way defenseman.

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10-14-2012, 09:11 PM
  #579
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Vatanen is clear, 100% OFD thought, you cannot change him to DFD
The idea isn't to change him to a defensive defenseman. It's to develop a more complete game that will allow him to succeed in the NHL. True offensive defensemen are rare in the NHL, and for good reason.

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10-21-2012, 02:52 AM
  #580
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He's naturally strong so he's not in trouble with bigger forwards. I'm sure he is NHL-level player in d-zone too.

Now 4 games and 1+5=6 +2. This is what I expected.

E: Theahl.com says that he's only 5-9 but for real he is nowadays 179cm so 5-10 or 5-11.

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10-21-2012, 02:55 AM
  #581
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He's naturally strong so he's not in trouble with bigger forwards. I'm sure he is NHL-level player in d-zone too.

Now 4 games and 1+5=6 +2. This is what I expected.
Omark, he's already had trouble at times physically in the D zone in the NHL. The rest of his game more than makes up for it, but to say that he won't have trouble because he's "naturally strong" is just not true. It's likely always going to be an issue for him, and something he needs to battle through.

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10-21-2012, 02:58 AM
  #582
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Omark, he's already had trouble at times physically in the D zone in the NHL. The rest of his game more than makes up for it, but to say that he won't have trouble because he's "naturally strong" is just not true. It's likely always going to be an issue for him, and something he needs to battle through.
He hasn't played in the NHL yet.

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10-21-2012, 03:04 AM
  #583
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He hasn't played in the NHL yet.
Sorry, I meant the AHL. The point stands. If he can get outmuscled at times in the AHL, it's going to happen in the NHL. Vatanen is always going to be undersized, and there are always going to be players that take advantage of it. When he finally does make the NHL, you'll probably see his coaches take that into consideration, by not having him on the ice against players more likely to do just that. A player like Getzlaf or Thornton, for example, would probably be a real problem for him defensively. So, you'll probably see him get a lot of offensive zone starts.

Edit: This isn't a knock against Vatanen. It's just a fact of life. He should still do just fine when he makes the NHL, but there are situations he's going to want to avoid(and coaches will try to keep him out of), because he's at a physical disadvantage.


Last edited by Sojourn: 10-21-2012 at 03:14 AM.
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10-21-2012, 03:14 AM
  #584
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players could outmuscle Nik Lidstrom to, Sami just has to figure out the best way he can defend guys considering his size

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10-21-2012, 03:21 AM
  #585
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players could outmuscle Nik Lidstrom to, Sami just has to figure out the best way he can defend guys considering his size
A better example would be Visnovsky. Lidstrom wasn't the type to get outmuscled very often, and his size was never an issue. There is a difference between being physically disadvantaged, and not playing an overly physical game. If Lidstrom needed to go head-to-head with a player physically, he could do it just fine. It just wasn't his game. It's also worth noting that Lidstrom was one of the smartest players to ever lace them up. His game was very cerebral, and he had a gift for being in the right spots and making the right decisions. That's one of the reasons he never seemed rushed. With Vatanen, it's his skating that he'll use to keep him out of trouble. Based on what I've seen of Vatanen, he's a smart player in his own right, but Lidstrom was all-time intelligent.

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10-21-2012, 04:11 AM
  #586
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Vatanen and Visnovsky is a pretty good comparison IMO.

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10-21-2012, 12:09 PM
  #587
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A lot will also depend on finding him the right partner. Brian Leetch was certainly helped by playing a lot of years with Beukeboom on his pairing. Not that they didn't have better defensemen than Beukeboom to play him with, but he was the best fit.

A big physical guy who has *just enough* skill to play heavy minutes would be ideal, but those guys aren't all that common either. You can't just plug in any old bruiser. And frankly, we could use two of them, one to go with Cam as well.

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10-21-2012, 12:39 PM
  #588
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Ideally Cam's "bruiser" partner is still Beauchemin. They were a great fit before Beauch's shoulder injury.

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10-21-2012, 12:56 PM
  #589
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Ideally, Sbisa becomes somebody's physical partner. With some offensive upside.

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10-21-2012, 01:08 PM
  #590
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We have a trio of elderly bruisers on the team with Allen, Souray, and Beauchemin. As long as their joints don't rust during their inactivity there should be adequate protection without the need to cast Sbisa in that role.

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10-21-2012, 01:38 PM
  #591
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We have a trio of elderly bruisers on the team with Allen, Souray, and Beauchemin. As long as their joints don't rust during their inactivity there should be adequate protection without the need to cast Sbisa in that role.
I agree those three are better suited to the job today. But physicality has always been a big part of Sbisa's game (when he's on his game) and should be going forward. I could easily see him partnering with Fowler or Vatanen in a year or two, for many years to come.

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10-21-2012, 01:41 PM
  #592
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I've just always liked the idea of having a "shutdown pairing" of Sbisa and Allen.

Beauchamin-Fowler
Sbisa-Allen
Souray-Vatanen

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10-21-2012, 02:19 PM
  #593
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Originally Posted by Eddie Shack View Post
I agree those three are better suited to the job today. But physicality has always been a big part of Sbisa's game (when he's on his game) and should be going forward. I could easily see him partnering with Fowler or Vatanen in a year or two, for many years to come.
I can, too. But I'm thinking more of protection rather than just physicality, and while I think Sbisa is probably up to that task, I'd rather have him on the ice. We could live a lot easier with Souray in the box for 5 or 15 than we could with Sbisa.

So I guess I'd rather hold off on the Sbisa-Fowler or -Vatanen pairing until those guys are less vulnerable and in need of a big brother. (As opposed to a physical counterpart, the need for which will always be present).

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10-21-2012, 02:30 PM
  #594
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I can, too. But I'm thinking more of protection rather than just physicality, and while I think Sbisa is probably up to that task, I'd rather have him on the ice. We could live a lot easier with Souray in the box for 5 or 15 than we could with Sbisa.

So I guess I'd rather hold off on the Sbisa-Fowler or -Vatanen pairing until those guys are less vulnerable and in need of a big brother. (As opposed to a physical counterpart, the need for which will always be present).
Yeah, well, I'm with you there. :-)

Hopefully neither Fowler nor Vatanen will need any "more" protection than what teams give any of their stars. But that does leave us with needing that tough guy who can and will intimidate opponents away from our stars. I don't know if Beauch is really that, but hopefully a healthy Allen and/or Souray with a dash of Staubitz will be.

Watching the Flames run Fowler twice and seeing Parros do nothing but bark is unacceptable. I think all the new guys know that.

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10-21-2012, 02:41 PM
  #595
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That's right, I forgot we signed Staubitz. Actually I keep forgetting we signed Allen, too.

This blows. There would have been some great games this past week.

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10-21-2012, 09:49 PM
  #596
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I think Souray fighting is a bad idea. IIRC, at least a couple of his big injuries were due to fighting. Broken hand in 2010 and shoulder in 2007 (that kept recurring).

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10-22-2012, 12:14 AM
  #597
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I would prefer to see Staubitz do the majority of the fighting. Souray being big, old, and slow needs to be the agitator doing the "as needed" cheap shotting. Whether that is clearing guys in front of the net or protecting the stars, I see that as his job. No, I don't want him taking stupid penalties but opponents have to know they will pay the price for bad behavior.

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10-22-2012, 12:26 AM
  #598
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I've never really liked seeing defensemen fight to begin with. There are exceptions to this, but losing a defenseman for five minutes can hurt a lot more than losing a 3rd or 4th line forward.

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10-22-2012, 01:33 AM
  #599
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I've never really liked seeing defensemen fight to begin with. There are exceptions to this, but losing a defenseman for five minutes can hurt a lot more than losing a 3rd or 4th line forward.
I've always felt that's what brought down Komisarek. He had some strong defensive skills, but if he isn't taking himself out of the game with a two-minute minor, then he's doing it with a fighting major.

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10-22-2012, 01:39 AM
  #600
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I've always felt that's what brought down Komisarek. He had some strong defensive skills, but if he isn't taking himself out of the game with a two-minute minor, then he's doing it with a fighting major.
Not to mention, as already mentioned, injuries are a real risk. It's easy to break your hand on someone else's face, and when you get yanked to the ice it can be awkward and uncontrolled, which is when you pull and tear things.

I understand that there is a time and a place(Beauchemin vs. Iginla comes to mind), but I'd just rather it be an exception, and not an expectation. Games are won by players on the ice.

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