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Old
02-21-2012, 11:39 AM
  #51
Unsportsmanlike
Marc Madsen
 
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Originally Posted by killbuttman View Post
I didn't want Jovo. It's embarassing we even targetted him. I'm simply saying that Holland is developing a history of not getting the player he wants because he isn't aggressive enough. HE wanted Jovo, but his offer was so silly it was laughed at. The debate isn't whether Jovo is a good fit. I think he sucks. The debate is...can Holland be aggressive enough to add the pieces we need.
I don't think it's fair to say Holland didn't get it done (in this case) because he didn't get Jovo signed. I think it's more than possible for Holland to be interested in a playoff but only to a certain extent. You make it sound as though anytime Holland has interest in a player that he should be willing to trade, pay, or do absolutely anything in order to make it happen.

It seemed to me that Holland was interested in Jovo as a quasi 4/5 d-man. Holland was interested in him at a certain number. If Jovo turned it down then so be it. But I think you're making a massive leap when misconstruing Holland's mild interest as failures when it doesnt work out.

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Originally Posted by killbuttman View Post
Holland was interested in Jagr. But didn't get it done.
Same deal as Jovo.

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Originally Posted by killbuttman View Post
You can give me all the excuses about the goalies wanting to be #1s you want. But if Holland's stance was so rigid that you were going to tell all these goalies that the job was Howard's NO MATTER WHAT and not up for grabs...then why not identify a career back-up like Hedberg or Garon or Budaj or a former #1 like Giguere who was willing to accept a back-up job? Why approach guys like Vokoun, Theodore, and Smith when they were all capable and wanting a shot to be a #1? So while we wasted time on these goose chases, all the better back-ups were signed.
I don't think on one hand you can sit there and berate Holland for not making deals (like you stated in you rprevious post) and then respond to me by saying that he shouldn't have inquired in the goalies he felt would be the best option (Vokoun etc.) despite their preference for a chance at a starters job.

After those guys turned the Wings down Holland did 'identify a career back-up' and made his choice. At the time I don't believe that Garon, Budaj or Gigeure were clear cut better choices than Conklin. But I will admit conklin was not my desired selection.

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Originally Posted by killbuttman View Post
Sometimes being conservative is the right thing. Not signing Whiz or Leino to silly deals is great. But this pattern doesn't give me ANY confidence that we'll land guys like Nash, Parise, Suter, or Weber. Ever. Bold moves are needed to land these guys. And I don't see it happening.
Did you ever stop and think that by not overpaying players like even the signings you appear to think were good ones (like Jagr) or not overpaying bad players that it puts the Wings/Holland in a position to aggressively pursue players when they feel they have found the best fit?

Like even right now at the deadline, if they market had been able to supply more impact players aren't you glad that the Wings have the cap space and assets to try and make a deal that makes sense? Or this summer, aren't you glad the Wings can at least try and go after Suter/Parise etc.?

I just don't understand your reasoning and continued claims of Holland failing to get the players you've listed

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Old
02-21-2012, 11:43 AM
  #52
Animus
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Quote:
Originally Posted by killbuttman View Post
I didn't want Jovo. It's embarassing we even targetted him. I'm simply saying that Holland is developing a history of not getting the player he wants because he isn't aggressive enough. HE wanted Jovo, but his offer was so silly it was laughed at. The debate isn't whether Jovo is a good fit. I think he sucks. The debate is...can Holland be aggressive enough to add the pieces we need.

Holland was interested in Jagr. But didn't get it done.

You can give me all the excuses about the goalies wanting to be #1s you want. But if Holland's stance was so rigid that you were going to tell all these goalies that the job was Howard's NO MATTER WHAT and not up for grabs...then why not identify a career back-up like Hedberg or Garon or Budaj or a former #1 like Giguere who was willing to accept a back-up job? Why approach guys like Vokoun, Theodore, and Smith when they were all capable and wanting a shot to be a #1? So while we wasted time on these goose chases, all the better back-ups were signed.

Sometimes being conservative is the right thing. Not signing Whiz or Leino to silly deals is great. But this pattern doesn't give me ANY confidence that we'll land guys like Nash, Parise, Suter, or Weber. Ever. Bold moves are needed to land these guys. And I don't see it happening.
Holland does a GREAT job with reclamation projects (Bertuzzi, Miller, Cleary, Drake..etc) but doesn't make trades...so what?? The Wings have been one of the top 5 teams in the NHL for basically the last 20 years...and NOW is when we start slamming him?? It makes no sense, when he feels like a trade was needed in the past he went out and did it (Shanny, Murphy, Ciccarelli and so on). I don't know why you slam him so much...

Right now, as much as I want him we don't need a player like Parise (maybe in 3-4 years, yes). We need a #2 pairing D-man bad right now...Kubina wasn't it. I have no clue what Defensemen are UFA this upcoming season (that aren't named Weber that is). This whole Weber/Suter craze we have is a pipe dream...we aren't getting either just drop it. Nash is also a pipe dream drop that one as well...his contract alone would ruin what we have going on. Let our kids develop and stop wanting to see trades all the time...

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Old
02-21-2012, 12:05 PM
  #53
Unsportsmanlike
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Originally Posted by Animus View Post
Holland does a GREAT job with reclamation projects (Bertuzzi, Miller, Cleary, Drake..etc) but doesn't make trades...so what?? The Wings have been one of the top 5 teams in the NHL for basically the last 20 years...and NOW is when we start slamming him?? It makes no sense, when he feels like a trade was needed in the past he went out and did it (Shanny, Murphy, Ciccarelli and so on). I don't know why you slam him so much...

Right now, as much as I want him we don't need a player like Parise (maybe in 3-4 years, yes). We need a #2 pairing D-man bad right now...Kubina wasn't it. I have no clue what Defensemen are UFA this upcoming season (that aren't named Weber that is). This whole Weber/Suter craze we have is a pipe dream...we aren't getting either just drop it. Nash is also a pipe dream drop that one as well...his contract alone would ruin what we have going on. Let our kids develop and stop wanting to see trades all the time...
It seems like a lot of people just want trades for the sake of trades without really realizing/caring that the grass isn't always greener on the other side. I'm not saying KB is one of those people but it seems like a lot of fans hate on GMs when they don't make the moves they wish they'd make without considering all the factors.

I can understand fans hating on GMs when they make obviously bad decisions. But I don't think you can really pinpoint a series of bad decisions Holland has made unless you're going to do it 100% in hindsight (etc. Conklin).

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02-21-2012, 02:27 PM
  #54
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Originally Posted by Unsportsmanlike View Post
I don't think it's fair to say Holland didn't get it done (in this case) because he didn't get Jovo signed. I think it's more than possible for Holland to be interested in a playoff but only to a certain extent. You make it sound as though anytime Holland has interest in a player that he should be willing to trade, pay, or do absolutely anything in order to make it happen.

It seemed to me that Holland was interested in Jovo as a quasi 4/5 d-man. Holland was interested in him at a certain number. If Jovo turned it down then so be it. But I think you're making a massive leap when misconstruing Holland's mild interest as failures when it doesnt work out.

At the time I don't believe that Garon, Budaj or Gigeure were clear cut better choices than Conklin. But I will admit conklin was not my desired selection.

Did you ever stop and think that by not overpaying players like even the signings you appear to think were good ones (like Jagr) or not overpaying bad players that it puts the Wings/Holland in a position to aggressively pursue players when they feel they have found the best fit?

Like even right now at the deadline, if they market had been able to supply more impact players aren't you glad that the Wings have the cap space and assets to try and make a deal that makes sense? Or this summer, aren't you glad the Wings can at least try and go after Suter/Parise etc.?

I just don't understand your reasoning and continued claims of Holland failing to get the players you've listed

Part of being a good GM is making realistic offers, especially on July 1 when 29 others are doing the same thing. You don't walk into a Porsche dealership, waste a bunch of time, and then offer $5,000, while all the best used cars were sold to more reasonable bidders. That's what happened with Conklin. If we were so adamant about the #1 not being up for grabs, then why waste time with guys (Vokoun, Smith, Theodore) who clearly wanted a shot to be #1? Holland goofed on this. Simple as that. As for Garon, Budaj, Giguere not being clear cut favourites over Conklin...umm, they were for people who watched Conklin play hockey last year. But we seemed to put a lot of emphasis on how good he was in 2009...

As for cap space...we have the cap space to add like $20M of salary right now. Seems a bit excessive, especially when you factor in the salary lost from the players we trade to make our new aquisitions fit. The space won't get used. And how would signing Jagr at $3.3M compromise our ability to sign Suter/Parise this summer? It's a 1-year deal. He helps us now. He walks away. We get that $3.3M back to bid on Parise/Suter. Or we just sign Eaves instead of Jagr.

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Old
02-21-2012, 03:33 PM
  #55
Unsportsmanlike
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Originally Posted by killbuttman View Post
Part of being a good GM is making realistic offers, especially on July 1 when 29 others are doing the same thing. You don't walk into a Porsche dealership, waste a bunch of time, and then offer $5,000, while all the best used cars were sold to more reasonable bidders. That's what happened with Conklin. If we were so adamant about the #1 not being up for grabs, then why waste time with guys (Vokoun, Smith, Theodore) who clearly wanted a shot to be #1? Holland goofed on this. Simple as that. As for Garon, Budaj, Giguere not being clear cut favourites over Conklin...umm, they were for people who watched Conklin play hockey last year. But we seemed to put a lot of emphasis on how good he was in 2009...
That's an absurd comparison. What you deem to be a reasonable offer for Jovo is not necessarily what I deem to be reasonable nore what anybody else may deem to be reasonable. If you're trying to seel me a used car for $30k but I felt like that car would be a good fit for me I do not see it as a waste of time offering you what I would deem reasonable (for example $12k). If you turned it down then so be it, no skin off my teeth. If you accepted it all the better for me. Plus, if some fool walked on by and offered you the $30k you were asking for I'd be the one laughing but he just got ripped off.

You look at everything as though it is perfectly white and black. I do not think that it was a foregone conclusion that Vokoun/Theodore etc wouldn't accept a deal when they couldn't compete for the starting position. If that isn't a known 'must have' (at that time) then I definitely think you inquire with the players you (Holland) feel fit the best.

As far as the other goalies go i thought Garon was a flash i nthe pan with his one good year last year. if you saw Gigeure in Toronto as much as I did (I live in Toronto) there was no reason to think he'd bounce back as he has. He looked insanely slow and as though his knee was shot. I think Budaj is an average back up at best. From comments that came from the Wings it seemed like they thought Conklin was about the same level as budaj but they liked his familiarity and leadership qualities.

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Originally Posted by killbuttman View Post

As for cap space...we have the cap space to add like $20M of salary right now. Seems a bit excessive, especially when you factor in the salary lost from the players we trade to make our new aquisitions fit. The space won't get used. And how would signing Jagr at $3.3M compromise our ability to sign Suter/Parise this summer? It's a 1-year deal. He helps us now. He walks away. We get that $3.3M back to bid on Parise/Suter. Or we just sign Eaves instead of Jagr.
I didn't say signing Jagr would have prohibited the Wings from spending this summer. I said that avoiding a lot of the signings that you quoted (good and/or bad) provide the Wings with the ability to make a move now and to continue to be able to make a move this summer.

Had the Wings chosen to sign Jagr at $3.3M he would have replaced Emmerton (most likely) on the roster. That means when the Wings entered the season with just under $5M in cap space there would have been a net difference of -$2.8M. So instead of starting the year with $5M in space they would have started with $2.2M in space. That would have left them with max about $8.5M in space at the deadline (assuming no injury space was used - which is clearly was anyways).

Not signing Jagr left them in a spot to be try and acquire any one they wanted. It just so happens the market is dry and they may not do anything.

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