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NHL Trade Deadline 2012 Discussion Part II (All credible rumors/trade talk here)

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Old
02-18-2012, 11:55 PM
  #101
Kriss E
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Originally Posted by le_sean View Post
Who knows. He's a good player when he's on. His size and strength are phenomenal. But he is extremely frustrating. I just feel the return might disappoint some fans because he's not good enough to be relied upon for offence, but he is good for offensive depth. But a team won't give a 1st rounder for depth. I think he will have similar value to Moen. Teams at least know what they are getting with Moen. Kostitsyn is a wildcard.

It's an exciting time though. The speculation is fun.
The Kings certainly gave a 1st rounder for depth. More than that, they added their 13th overall selection and a conditional pick. Penner is exactly what AK is, except even less physical. Like AK, questions about his attitude and consistency have always been present. He's as much as a wildcard as AK. Actually, I'd even go as far to say he's an even bigger one. You know AK can be used against top opponents, as he has been under Martin with Plek, and do a good job defensively.
So, I don't think it's too much of a stretch to hope AK could fetch at least a 1st rounder. To be honest, anything less would be a disappointment and I'd rather we re-sign him.

Essentially, we really don't know. Demand is the only determining factor, so it's impossible for us to know, but I do feel like there will be enough of one to get at the very least, a 1st round pick, or a good prospect+ lower picks.

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02-18-2012, 11:57 PM
  #102
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To play beside a completely healthy Markov? I'd think about it. Otherwise, I don't even think I'd pull the trigger on that one.
Not even, Emelin could fit that role, and probably be better considering his skating and puck moving skills are much better than Komi's.

Kaberle can still be good if you limit his ice time and match him up nicely. He will also provide offense. Komi is just flat out useless 99% of the time.

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02-19-2012, 12:02 AM
  #103
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The #6 dmen by ATOI on the other teams in our division: McQuaid, Regehr (Sekera & Weber only seconds ahead, but this surprised the heck out of me), Lee & Gunnarsson. IMO this makes Diaz a #7 everywhere except Ottawa.
If you want to go purely on ATOI, though, you're not removing inherent bias for how the entire d squad they play on is deployed. A team that has a PK Subban and/or Josh Gorges pumping out 25+ mins per game doesn't leave many minutes left for guys that play on the 3rd pairing... especially if the coach has the most confidence playing that 2nd pairing 20+ mins per game on top of that.

But imo, Diaz is good enough to be that guy who plays beside a solid anchor on the 2nd pairing. Skill/experience/impact-wise, he's probably a solid bottom pairing guy, but maybe not the best anchor for a 3rd pairing. Since I see a place for him on an average team anywhere from 4th to 6th, I'll suggest that (imo, of course) he's probably just about an average #5 on an average team. He has certainly exceeded my expectations so far, tbh. I thought he'd simply be someone that we wouldn't regret using right away (no N.Am. transition time), but he has turned out to be a surprisingly productive and reliable minute eater already.

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02-19-2012, 12:03 AM
  #104
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Not even, Emelin could fit that role, and probably be better considering his skating and puck moving skills are much better than Komi's.

Kaberle can still be good if you limit his ice time and match him up nicely. He will also provide offense. Komi is just flat out useless 99% of the time.
Totally agreed. Like I said, I'd think about it... just not that long, lol. Long enough to remember 'oh yeah, they were great together once', and then remember 'oh yeah, but Komisarek is useless now'.

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02-19-2012, 07:33 AM
  #105
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Moen has been placed on IR, so count him out of any trade. Anyways, i completely trust Gauthier to maximise his assets, dude has done a terrific job trade-wise so far for us, **** the haters.

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02-19-2012, 07:52 AM
  #106
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id take kyle clifford in a new york second
Hell to the yes!

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02-19-2012, 07:55 AM
  #107
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Moen has been placed on IR, so count him out of any trade. Anyways, i completely trust Gauthier to maximise his assets, dude has done a terrific job trade-wise so far for us, **** the haters.
You can still trade an injured player.

I'd still like to see him re-signed though.

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02-19-2012, 08:00 AM
  #108
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You can still trade an injured player.

I'd still like to see him re-signed though.
Of course you can, but who would take him ? And yes i would love it if he stays.

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02-19-2012, 08:07 AM
  #109
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Of course you can, but who would take him ? And yes i would love it if he stays.
It's just a minor injury, probably will miss 1-2 weeks. on't think it would affect his value much, maybe add a conditionnal pick if he misses more than x games.

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02-19-2012, 08:10 AM
  #110
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Originally Posted by Ohashi_Jouzu View Post
If you want to go purely on ATOI, though, you're not removing inherent bias for how the entire d squad they play on is deployed. A team that has a PK Subban and/or Josh Gorges pumping out 25+ mins per game doesn't leave many minutes left for guys that play on the 3rd pairing... especially if the coach has the most confidence playing that 2nd pairing 20+ mins per game on top of that.

But imo, Diaz is good enough to be that guy who plays beside a solid anchor on the 2nd pairing. Skill/experience/impact-wise, he's probably a solid bottom pairing guy, but maybe not the best anchor for a 3rd pairing. Since I see a place for him on an average team anywhere from 4th to 6th, I'll suggest that (imo, of course) he's probably just about an average #5 on an average team. He has certainly exceeded my expectations so far, tbh. I thought he'd simply be someone that we wouldn't regret using right away (no N.Am. transition time), but he has turned out to be a surprisingly productive and reliable minute eater already.
Right, I was using a "quick and easy" method. But I don't get how diminished minutes for #3-6 affects the order of those dmen, which is what I was looking for.

I like Diaz fine. It is the overall quality and depth of the D corps that I think is lacking. A contender can have a Diaz, but he needs to complement, not proxy for that "solid anchor for the 2nd pairing." Even if Emelin becomes that player, I don't think Kaberle-Diaz-Weber and another depth dman are good enough to fill out #4 through 7, I think one more upgrade would be necessary.

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02-19-2012, 08:21 AM
  #111
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It's just a minor injury, probably will miss 1-2 weeks. on't think it would affect his value much, maybe add a conditionnal pick if he misses more than x games.
Fair enough then.

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02-19-2012, 08:22 AM
  #112
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Right, I was using a "quick and easy" method. But I don't get how diminished minutes for #3-6 affects the order of those dmen, which is what I was looking for.

I like Diaz fine. It is the overall quality and depth of the D corps that I think is lacking. A contender can have a Diaz, but he needs to complement, not proxy for that "solid anchor for the 2nd pairing." Even if Emelin becomes that player, I don't think Kaberle-Diaz-Weber and another depth dman are good enough to fill out #4 through 7, I think one more upgrade would be necessary.
In an ideal world...

1-Markov comes back 100% healthy(no setbacks)
2-Subban keeps playing at the current(much improved) level
3-we can sign a Jackman/Mitchell type for 3-3.5/year over 3-4 years

Markov-UFA
Subban-Gorges
Emelin-Diaz/Weber

That will take a bit of pressure off Gorges and Emelin defensively plus we have a #5-6 taht can play more if something happens to Markov.

Trade Kaberle next summer(unless we get a good offer before the deadline)

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02-19-2012, 08:26 AM
  #113
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Originally Posted by Kriss E View Post
The Kings certainly gave a 1st rounder for depth. More than that, they added their 13th overall selection and a conditional pick. Penner is exactly what AK is, except even less physical. Like AK, questions about his attitude and consistency have always been present. He's as much as a wildcard as AK. Actually, I'd even go as far to say he's an even bigger one. You know AK can be used against top opponents, as he has been under Martin with Plek, and do a good job defensively.
So, I don't think it's too much of a stretch to hope AK could fetch at least a 1st rounder. To be honest, anything less would be a disappointment and I'd rather we re-sign him.

Essentially, we really don't know. Demand is the only determining factor, so it's impossible for us to know, but I do feel like there will be enough of one to get at the very least, a 1st round pick, or a good prospect+ lower picks.
To be fair, Dustin Penner was coming off a previous season where he was by far the leading scorer on the Oilers with 32 goals and 63 points, and the season after he was nearly on pace to score 30 again and in a position to again be the leading scorer on a terrible team. Plus he won a Cup before. We have to remember the Penner we are seeing now is nothing like the Penner that played in Edmonton.

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02-19-2012, 08:29 AM
  #114
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In an ideal world...

1-Markov comes back 100% healthy(no setbacks)
2-Subban keeps playing at the current(much improved) level
3-we can sign a Jackman/Mitchell type for 3-3.5/year over 3-4 years

Markov-UFA
Subban-Gorges
Emelin-Diaz/Weber

That will take a bit of pressure off Gorges and Emelin defensively plus we have a #5-6 taht can play more if something happens to Markov.

Trade Kaberle next summer(unless we get a good offer before the deadline)
Why signing a UFA for that many years with Tinordi and Beaulieu coming up ?

I say try to land an older player who'll take a one year deal like Jovanovski or Kubina. ARgg... forget about Jovo he isn't a UFA

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02-19-2012, 08:33 AM
  #115
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Right, I was using a "quick and easy" method. But I don't get how diminished minutes for #3-6 affects the order of those dmen, which is what I was looking for.
Which is fine, but you can't use some of the best examples of "6th defensemen" in the league to "prove" that Diaz is a 7th defenseman. Also, order within one team doesn't mean very much when trying to put an "overall" label on a player.

Regehr, for example, could very well be a 2nd pairing defenseman right now and no one would be surprised, but it just so happens that he's behind two more productive LH defensemen in Ehrhoff and Leopold right now. Gunnarsson could/should have been 2nd pairing with Toronto if Jake Gardiner hadn't come on like gangbusters this year, pushing Gunnarsson down the LH side of the defensive depth chart, as another of your examples. So what are the "true" labels for the roles of these players, if we're trying to define everyone's role across the league for the point of comparison? That's where I was coming from earlier when I spoke of suitability for roles (a subjective assessment of talent/skill) instead of simply using a stat like ATOI to determine what their role would likely be on any other "average" team.

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02-19-2012, 08:36 AM
  #116
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Why signing a UFA for that many years with Tinordi and Beaulieu coming up ?

I say try to land an older player who'll take a one year deal like Jovanovski or Kubina. ARgg... forget about Jovo he isn't a UFA
You want somebody that's still good enough to play 20-21 minutes if needed. Ideally it would be a 2 year deal but most "good" or "very good" UFA's want 3-4-5 years. If the contract is front loaded a bit you can easily trade the player after 2-3 years.

I think you have to plan for Tinordi needing 2 years AHL, if he beats that timeline it's a bonus. Same for Pateryn Ellis and Beaulieu.

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02-19-2012, 08:40 AM
  #117
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You want somebody that's still good enough to play 20-21 minutes if needed. Ideally it would be a 2 year deal but most "good" or "very good" UFA's want 3-4-5 years. If the contract is front loaded a bit you can easily trade the player after 2-3 years.

I think you have to plan for Tinordi needing 2 years AHL, if he beats that timeline it's a bonus. Same for Pateryn Ellis and Beaulieu.
I totaly agree but if they are ready by next year do you want to block them because you signed someone to a 2 years deal... we can go one year at a time. There will be players that can log 20min and will be willing to sign a 1 year deal either because no one wants to give them more years or to reset their value for the next summer... it cost more on a year-to-year basis, but it's better than to cripple ourselves with Kaberle-like contracts.

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02-19-2012, 10:37 AM
  #118
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I totaly agree but if they are ready by next year do you want to block them because you signed someone to a 2 years deal... we can go one year at a time. There will be players that can log 20min and will be willing to sign a 1 year deal either because no one wants to give them more years or to reset their value for the next summer... it cost more on a year-to-year basis, but it's better than to cripple ourselves with Kaberle-like contracts.
Good Dmen are easy to trade. Like someone said if you front load a contract then you can trade that player to a team that needs a Dman and a larger cap hit with a smaller payout is what many financially weaker teams like. Of course this may change with whatever happens with the new contract coming up.

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02-19-2012, 11:05 AM
  #119
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I totaly agree but if they are ready by next year do you want to block them because you signed someone to a 2 years deal... we can go one year at a time. There will be players that can log 20min and will be willing to sign a 1 year deal either because no one wants to give them more years or to reset their value for the next summer... it cost more on a year-to-year basis, but it's better than to cripple ourselves with Kaberle-like contracts.
How is Kaberle's contract crippling?

Maybe when he had 5 points in 27 games and -14...but since then his play has improved 300%.

If Markov comes back 100% I'm sure we'll have no issues moving Kaberle by opening night next year.

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02-19-2012, 11:33 AM
  #120
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How is Kaberle's contract crippling?

Maybe when he had 5 points in 27 games and -14...but since then his play has improved 300%.

If Markov comes back 100% I'm sure we'll have no issues moving Kaberle by opening night next year.
I agree. I'm not sure that Kaberle is unmoveable. He might be packed off as soon as next week if the Habs were to lose the next couple of games.

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02-19-2012, 11:39 AM
  #121
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I agree. I'm not sure that Kaberle is unmoveable. He might be packed off as soon as next week if the Habs were to lose the next couple of games.
That's true. As much as I wish we didn't have this contract on our hands, as long as he has offensive numbers for his agent to dangle in front of GMs, he should at least be good trade deadline bait. No one is looking at his $4+ million price tag at that point in the season, just whatever strengths he might be able to add to a team looking for final pieces.

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02-19-2012, 11:46 AM
  #122
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I agree. I'm not sure that Kaberle is unmoveable. He might be packed off as soon as next week if the Habs were to lose the next couple of games.
Once again the Habs are in a situation where they can still make it... !

This week's games will tell which direction to go.

There is not that many players that they could/should move.

Moen is probably the most wanted.
AK might interest someone
Campoli is a spare part
Kaberle has a fat contract for more years .

Maybe Budaj could help someone.

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02-19-2012, 12:00 PM
  #123
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How is Kaberle's contract crippling?

Maybe when he had 5 points in 27 games and -14...but since then his play has improved 300%.

If Markov comes back 100% I'm sure we'll have no issues moving Kaberle by opening night next year.
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I agree. I'm not sure that Kaberle is unmoveable. He might be packed off as soon as next week if the Habs were to lose the next couple of games.
2 more years at 4,25mil on a d-man who's soft as butter, isn't very good defensively, who plays 16min a game and is known to disappear in important games.

I hope we'll be able to trade him, but nothing is sure and it's not even a question that his salary is problematic...

Kaberle is a much better player and improvement over Spacek, no question there... but again, we're comparing him to another awfull contract. Really, you guys talk as if we can sign anyone to any contracts and if it doesn't work out he'll be traded... well there are a ton of unmoveable contracts and we should learn to be carefull with them, espacially with all the Gomez mess.

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02-19-2012, 12:05 PM
  #124
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2 more years at 4,25mil on a d-man who's soft as butter, isn't very good defensively, who plays 16min a game and is known to disappear in important games.

I hope we'll be able to trade him, but nothing is sure and it's not even a question that his salary is problematic...

Kaberle is a much better player and improvement over Spacek, no question there... but again, we're comparing him to another awfull contract. Really, you guys talk as if we can sign anyone to any contracts and if it doesn't work out he'll be traded... well there are a ton of unmoveable contracts and we should learn to be carefull with them, espacially with all the Gomez mess.
By your definition 70% of players in the NHL are "soft as butter".

Campbell had 5 years left at 7.1+/year cap hit and Chicago was able to move him.

I think next summer there will be teams under the cap floor and needing PMD's taht will be willing to take 2 years contract at a resonable rate.

The only thing I'd see is to stop playing him 14-15 minutes a night...trade Campoli and play Diaz/Weber/kaberle regular minutes. Kaberle is used to playing 20-23 minutes a night and now ends up sitting 5-10 minutes at a time and I'm sure it affects his game.

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02-19-2012, 12:07 PM
  #125
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2 more years at 4,25mil on a d-man who's soft as butter, isn't very good defensively, who plays 16min a game and is known to disappear in important games.

I hope we'll be able to trade him, but nothing is sure and it's not even a question that his salary is problematic...

Kaberle is a much better player and improvement over Spacek, no question there... but again, we're comparing him to another awfull contract. Really, you guys talk as if we can sign anyone to any contracts and if it doesn't work out he'll be traded... well there are a ton of unmoveable contracts and we should learn to be carefull with them, espacially with all the Gomez mess.
Well if the team is looking to move Kaberle at the deadline, supposedly the Devils are looking for a puck moving dman. Let's hope that Kaberle lights them up today and NJ falls for him

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