But that's just irrelevant when comparing to Orr. He won two Art Rosses. Once by 21 points. Explain to me how in the world a defenseman does that? You can't. Coffey was brilliant offensively but Orr was on a different pedestal.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ushvinder
I dont see any season where coffey would be a threat and he wouldnt have gretzky or mario to help him out in the 70's.
If their situations were reversed, I believe Coffey84-86 could score 100 points on the 1970 Bruins and thereby win the Ross. Coffey would have an infinitely better chance of doing so than Orr70-75 does of going into the future and scoring 206 to 216 points and stealing an Art Ross from Gretzky.
Aside from Jagr in 2001 (very special case), Gretzky and Lemieux never helped anyone on their team win an Art Ross. They more or less made it impossible for them to do so.
Quote:
Originally Posted by superroyain10
Yeah, this. For sure Orr had great teammates, but Coffey had Gretzky, THEN Lemieux, then Gretzky again, and then an incredibly strong Detroit team...
Let's not forget that Boston was the best offense in the NHL in Orr's first two years when he didn't contribute anywhere near as much as he did later on. They could score even if Bobby Orr wan't running the show.
Gretzky and Lemieux helped Coffey score more, but no one can compete with the transcendant players for an Art Ross. Gretzky outscored the nearest Oiler by 107 points in 1982. When did anyone else ever get close to that kind of spread between them and their teammates on a GOOD team?
Meanwhile, playing with very good to great players helped Orr get high point totals and didn't create a situation where he'd be outscored by a mile. When your team can finish 1-2-3-4 in scoring, you're doing okay.
Quote:
Originally Posted by seventieslord
Orr, and not close.
Orr was the engine of his team's offense, Coffey wasn't. Scoring was also a bit lower in the 70s. Coffey would never win an art ross (and not because Gretzky was standing in his way. Gretzky was the only way he got that close), Orr won two.
Playing on the Bruins in the 1970s was not entirely unlike playing with the Oilers in the 1980s. And while league-wide scoring in the 1970s is lower than league-wide scoring in the 1980s, that is an imperfect measure because of the less competitive, more imbalanced league. No one in the 80s was able to double the GF of the lowest scoring teams, even though the Oilers did try. But that did happen in the 70s.
Why not use Points/TGF? It shows what proportion of offense you contributed on goals that are scored regardless of team or era.
Orr produced 139 points while being on the ice for an insane 258 total goals for. Coffey produced 138 while being on the ice for an almost-but-not-quite-as-insane 247 goals for. You could can't say part of the difference between 258 and 247 is because of Orr, because his contribution is fully accounted for by 139 points, which doesn't seem to be miles ahead of Coffey's 138. In fact, proportionally, the offensive "engine" of the 1975 Bruins played a lesser offensive role in 75 than the Paul Coffey did for the Oilers in 1986.
Orr could have been able to boost both his point totals and Edmonton's TGF by playing with Gretzky. But the difference may not be as large you would think, especially since Orr doesn't get to play with the puck as much as he could on the 70s Bruins. If he was an Oiler, Orr was never going to come within 50 points of an Art Ross, let alone win one by 21 points.
That being said, Orr 70 seems to have the best Pt/GF% with 62.5%. Not quite as good as an elite forward, but probably the best of any d-man. I still wouldn't say "engine" for anything that far under 75% though.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rhiessan71
I think you have to look at it this way...if Orr paid as little attention to defense as Coffey and played the same all offense all the time style.
We are prolly looking at Gretzky/Lemieux like numbers that blow Coffey's out the window.
I imagine he'd score at the same rate he did in the 1971 playoffs. Orr was in a very high scoring environment, and that environment is being on the Esposito-Hodge-Bucyk Bruins and getting to play the California Golden Seals, Kansas City Scouts and Charlestown Chiefs.
Against weaker teams he did very much get to play like Coffey did. I'm sure he would have been more likely to get back to break up the other team's offensive chances. But that's easier in the imbalanced 1970s when half the NHL is not very good and you play for a team in the good half.
Quote:
Originally Posted by SillyRabbit
Anyway, if we're strictly talking offensive peak, which of these two had the higher one? (Added a poll option for them being equal offensively).
For best 7 seasons, Orr, but I do think it is close. Orr had more to do with his team's offense than Coffey, but I can't say he was the engine as seventieslord did. It's pretty clear that good things happened when they were on the ice, but also clear that many of these good things happened without them touching the puck, so maybe it's no coincidence that the 2 best offensive d-men were on really good offensive teams.
Wayne Gretzky and Mario Lemieux were engines. That's why their points totals divided by TGF will get around 80% most seasons.
For Orr and Coffey the numbers are usually in the mid 50's. Not horrible, but even when they're on the ice the team has other ways of scoring. Also not very far ahead of the peak years of Ray Bourque or Denis Potvin, who played on very good offensive teams that yielded fewer TGF for them because "very good" is not the 70s Bruins or 80s Oilers.
The only way I could vote for Coffey is if you were to take a smaller sample as a peak. Which pretty much means that I don't think any Orr playoff run was ever able to match Coffey's 85 playoffs, which could swing a 1-year example towards Coffey. Coffey 84-86 vs Orr's best 3 year run would also be competitive, since you'd have to eliminate one of Orr's scoring titles.
Last edited by blogofmike: 02-19-2012 at 04:24 PM.
Reason: Speling Misteke
If their situations were reversed, I believe Coffey84-86 could score 100 points on the 1970 Bruins and thereby win the Ross. Coffey would have an infinitely better chance of doing so than Orr70-75 does of going into the future and scoring 206 to 216 points and stealing an Art Ross from Gretzky.
Aside from Jagr in 2001 (very special case), Gretzky and Lemieux never helped anyone on their team win an Art Ross. They more or less made it impossible for them to do so.
Let's not forget that Boston was the best offense in the NHL in Orr's first two years when he didn't contribute anywhere near as much as he did later on. They could score even if Bobby Orr wan't running the show.
Gretzky and Lemieux helped Coffey score more, but no one can compete with the transcendant players for an Art Ross. Gretzky outscored the nearest Oiler by 107 points in 1982. When did anyone else ever get close to that kind of spread between them and their teammates on a GOOD team?
Meanwhile, playing with very good to great players helped Orr get high point totals and didn't create a situation where he'd be outscored by a mile. When your team can finish 1-2-3-4 in scoring, you're doing okay.
Playing on the Bruins in the 1970s was not entirely unlike playing with the Oilers in the 1980s. And while league-wide scoring in the 1970s is lower than league-wide scoring in the 1980s, that is an imperfect measure because of the less competitive, more imbalanced league. No one in the 80s was able to double the GF of the lowest scoring teams, even though the Oilers did try. But that did happen in the 70s.
Why not use Points/TGF? It shows what proportion of offense you contributed on goals that are scored regardless of team or era.
Orr produced 139 points while being on the ice for an insane 258 total goals for. Coffey produced 138 while being on the ice for an almost-but-not-quite-as-insane 247 goals for. You could can't say part of the difference between 258 and 247 is because of Orr, because his contribution is fully accounted for by 139 points, which doesn't seem to be miles ahead of Coffey's 138. In fact, proportionally, the offensive "engine" of the 1975 Bruins played a lesser offensive role in 75 than the Paul Coffey did for the Oilers in 1986.
Orr could have been able to boost both his point totals and Edmonton's TGF by playing with Gretzky. But the difference may not be as large you would think, especially since Orr doesn't get to play with the puck as much as he could on the 70s Bruins. If he was an Oiler, Orr was never going to come within 50 points of an Art Ross, let alone win one by 21 points.
That being said, Orr 70 seems to have the best Pt/GF% with 62.5%. Not quite as good as an elite forward, but probably the best of any d-man. I still wouldn't say "engine" for anything that far under 75% though.
I imagine he'd score at the same rate he did in the 1971 playoffs. Orr was in a very high scoring environment, and that environment is being on the Esposito-Hodge-Bucyk Bruins and getting to play the California Golden Seals, Kansas City Scouts and Charlestown Chiefs.
Against weaker teams he did very much get to play like Coffey did. I'm sure he would have been more likely to get back to break up the other team's offensive chances. But that's easier in the imbalanced 1970s when half the NHL is not very good and you play for a team in the good half.
For best 7 seasons, Orr, but I do think it is close. Orr had more to do with his team's offense than Coffey, but I can't say he was the engine as seventieslord did. It's pretty clear that good things happened when they were on the ice, but also clear that many of these good things happened without them touching the puck, so maybe it's no coincidence that the 2 best offensive d-men were on really good offensive teams.
Wayne Gretzky and Mario Lemieux were engines. That's why their points totals divided by TGF will get around 80% most seasons.
For Orr and Coffey the numbers are usually in the mid 50's. Not horrible, but even when they're on the ice the team has other ways of scoring. Also not very far ahead of the peak years of Ray Bourque or Denis Potvin, who played on very good offensive teams that yielded fewer TGF for them because "very good" is not the 70s Bruins or 80s Oilers.
The only way I could vote for Coffey is if you were to take a smaller sample as a peak. Which pretty much means that I don't think any Orr playoff run was ever able to match Coffey's 85 playoffs, which could swing a 1-year example towards Coffey. Coffey 84-86 vs Orr's best 3 year run would also be competitive, since you'd have to eliminate one of Orr's scoring titles.
Coffey's ppg during that stretch was usually lower than kurri and bossy's and on par with somone like stastny/goulet, yet in 1970 he would outscore stan mikita and phil esposito and have a better ppg than bobby hull, haha not a chance.
Did you just say coffey's 1985 playoff run is better than orr's conn smythes? Um yeah not only were his totals inflated by gretzky, he also played in an era where goals per game was significantly higher. In 1970 and 1972, the goals per game was 5.8 and 6.13, in coffey's season it was 7.8 and most of those points were either gretzky goals or gretzky assists.
Most people that actually saw games of orr know that he was the engine rather than relying on stats sheets, esposito's production as soon as he got traded is a prefect example.
I also love how you try to compare Coffey's 1986 with Orr's 1971 season as if they are close. In 1971 4 players scored over 100 points, in 1986 13 players scored over 100 points. Um yeah scoring was so evenly distributed, lol.
When orr won the art ross in 1975, espo was just a powerplay specialist and washed up, bucyck was old and it showed the following year when Orr was no longer around. Coffey would never lead his team in scoring and win an art ross, not going to happen, you can pretend he would, but i know he wouldnt.
[QUOTE=blogofmike;44453921]Let's not forget that Boston was the best offense in the NHL in Orr's first two years when he didn't contribute anywhere near as much as he did later on. They could score even if Bobby Orr wan't running the show.
The bruins were an average team with orr off the ice. I believe the gf/ga ratio was 1.05 throughout his career.
I didn't say Coffey was better both ways. I didn't even say he was better one way, just that it was closer than some were saying. Offensively Orr had a point on 139 of 258 goals he was on ice for. Coffey had 138 of 247. So regardless of era or teammates, Coffey had a similar share of the offense as Orr did. Or Potvin 1976, MacInnis 1991, or a host of other HHOF calibre defenders who didn't play on loaded offenses like these two did.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dennis Bonvie
In Orr's first year the Bruins came in last in the NHL in scoring.
Then it's his 2nd and 3rd years, where he had 31 pts and 64 pts. Boston was 1st in GF from 68 to 74.
Boston also remained near the top of the NHL after Orr and Espo left.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ushvinder
Coffey's ppg during that stretch was usually lower than kurri and bossy's and on par with somone like stastny/goulet, yet in 1970 he would outscore stan mikita and phil esposito and have a better ppg than bobby hull, haha not a chance.
Could Coffey outscore Bobby Hull in general? No. Could peak Coffey score more than Bobby Hull did in 1970, if Coffey was on the Bruins? Maybe. If his chances are slim, they are much better than Orr scoring 200+ points in 1984-86.
Furthermore, if his lesser performance significantly hurts Espo's point total, then Coffey can potentially win an Art Ross with 87 points. It was an off year by everyone but Orr. From 1984-86, Coffey is tied for third in PPG with Bossy, and behind Gretzky and Kurri, and Coffey was involved in fewer Gretzky goals than Kurri was.
So which do you think is more likely, peak Coffey sneaking in to win a scoring title on a stacked team in a very slow year, or peak Orr outscoring peak Wayne Gretzky?
Quote:
Did you just say coffey's 1985 playoff run is better than orr's conn smythes? Um yeah not only were his totals inflated by gretzky, he also played in an era where goals per game was significantly higher. In 1970 and 1972, the goals per game was 5.8 and 6.13, in coffey's season it was 7.8 and most of those points were either gretzky goals or gretzky assists.
Offensively, his playoff run was better, which is the point of the thread. If you adjust PPG for goals per game averages in the playoffs, Coffey's at 1.66 PPG by 1972 standards vs Orr's 1.60 PPG. (1985 = 7.485714 GPG, 1972 = 6.027778).
Quote:
Most people that actually saw games of orr know that he was the engine rather than relying on stats sheets, esposito's production as soon as he got traded is a prefect example.
1) blogofmike shouldn't use stats!
2) As proof, look at Espo's stats!
Of course your own post later says Espo was washed up by 1975.
Quote:
When orr won the art ross in 1975, espo was just a powerplay specialist and washed up, bucyck was old and it showed the following year when Orr was no longer around. Coffey would never lead his team in scoring and win an art ross, not going to happen, you can pretend he would, but i know he wouldnt.
Yet Espo did score 34-42 goals each year in the late 70s, even as though he was on the Rangers without Park and Ratelle, and aged 33-37 to boot.
Care to explain why Johnny Bucyk scored more goals in 1976, then he did in 1975? Or 1974 for that matter? How does scoring more goals than you did previously show a decline?
Also, why was Espo's PPG just as high in games without Orr as it was with Orr when Orr missed time in 1973?
Quote:
I also love how you try to compare Coffey's 1986 with Orr's 1971 season as if they are close. In 1971 4 players scored over 100 points, in 1986 13 players scored over 100 points. Um yeah scoring was so evenly distributed, lol.
I don't think you know what evenly distributed means, unless you were laughing at how ridiculous your previous statements were. What team had every 100 point scorer in 1970? Boston! They had 4 of the top 4 scorers.
What team had team had 4 of the top 10 scorers in 1986? No one. Scoring was more...evenly...distributed.
I don't possibly see how anyone wouldn't acknowledge that point. You tried to go against it and accidentally proved it was true!
Anyway, having scoring evenly distributed on your very stacked offensive team makes it easier to win a Ross than having it concentrated in history's only 200-point scorer. Again, do you think Orr would have hit 200+ points to steal an Art Ross from Gretzky or Lemieux?
Having talent more evenly distributed leaguewide means it's harder to beat up on expansion quality teams. Or to win a scoring title. When the bottom dwellers score roughly half of what Montreal and Boston were putting up, it's not much of a competition until Montreal plays Boston. And even then it wasn't much of a competition.
I didn't say Coffey was better both ways. I didn't even say he was better one way, just that it was closer than some were saying. Offensively Orr had a point on 139 of 258 goals he was on ice for. Coffey had 138 of 247. So regardless of era or teammates, Coffey had a similar share of the offense as Orr did. Or Potvin 1976, MacInnis 1991, or a host of other HHOF calibre defenders who didn't play on loaded offenses like these two did.
Then it's his 2nd and 3rd years, where he had 31 pts and 64 pts. Boston was 1st in GF from 68 to 74.
Boston also remained near the top of the NHL after Orr and Espo left.
Could Coffey outscore Bobby Hull in general? No. Could peak Coffey score more than Bobby Hull did in 1970, if Coffey was on the Bruins? Maybe. If his chances are slim, they are much better than Orr scoring 200+ points in 1984-86.
Furthermore, if his lesser performance significantly hurts Espo's point total, then Coffey can potentially win an Art Ross with 87 points. It was an off year by everyone but Orr. From 1984-86, Coffey is tied for third in PPG with Bossy, and behind Gretzky and Kurri, and Coffey was involved in fewer Gretzky goals than Kurri was.
So which do you think is more likely, peak Coffey sneaking in to win a scoring title on a stacked team in a very slow year, or peak Orr outscoring peak Wayne Gretzky?
Offensively, his playoff run was better, which is the point of the thread. If you adjust PPG for goals per game averages in the playoffs, Coffey's at 1.66 PPG by 1972 standards vs Orr's 1.60 PPG. (1985 = 7.485714 GPG, 1972 = 6.027778).
1) blogofmike shouldn't use stats!
2) As proof, look at Espo's stats!
Of course your own post later says Espo was washed up by 1975.
Yet Espo did score 34-42 goals each year in the late 70s, even as though he was on the Rangers without Park and Ratelle, and aged 33-37 to boot.
Care to explain why Johnny Bucyk scored more goals in 1976, then he did in 1975? Or 1974 for that matter? How does scoring more goals than you did previously show a decline?
Also, why was Espo's PPG just as high in games without Orr as it was with Orr when Orr missed time in 1973?
I don't think you know what evenly distributed means, unless you were laughing at how ridiculous your previous statements were. What team had every 100 point scorer in 1970? Boston! They had 4 of the top 4 scorers.
What team had team had 4 of the top 10 scorers in 1986? No one. Scoring was more...evenly...distributed.
I don't possibly see how anyone wouldn't acknowledge that point. You tried to go against it and accidentally proved it was true!
Anyway, having scoring evenly distributed on your very stacked offensive team makes it easier to win a Ross than having it concentrated in history's only 200-point scorer. Again, do you think Orr would have hit 200+ points to steal an Art Ross from Gretzky or Lemieux?
Having talent more evenly distributed leaguewide means it's harder to beat up on expansion quality teams. Or to win a scoring title. When the bottom dwellers score roughly half of what Montreal and Boston were putting up, it's not much of a competition until Montreal plays Boston. And even then it wasn't much of a competition.
Okay clearly you arent taking eras into context. No everyone didnt have an off-year in 170 except orr, before 1970 scoring in general was low, suggesting coffey without gretzky or mario would have outscored mikita that season is laughable.
Before Orr arrived, what was boston's offense like? yeah thats what i thought.
Scoring was evenly distributed in 1986? Okay, what does that have to do with the fact that players like goulet were scoring over 120 points, while hall of famers from orr's era where scoring 80-95 at most.
You talk as if any defenseman could have played for the bruins in the 70's and tear the league apart, your argument is such a joke. If scoring was so easy back then, then how come from 1970-1979, no defenseman even came within 30 points of orr's best years? Heck montreal and islanders of the late 70's were stacked, yet robinson and potvin never came close to matching orr? Park joined boston and his offense was nowhere near orr's.
In 1975 and 1976, buyck was 30 points away from cracking a top 5 scoring list, thats the equivalent of 65 point season right now.
Boston had 4 of the top 100 scorers in 1971 because of Orr you kid, if you think park or lapointe or coffey would have been on that team and hodge,bucyck, espo would still put up the same point totals, then i dont see any credibility from you. How often did bucyck outscore hull by 20 points prior to the arrival of orr?
Yeah espo was washed up because as soon as he was traded, he was no longer top 15 in scoring, i look at where they rank in the scoring race, not raw totals. In 1975 he didnt get a single hart vote and he was basically used on the powerplay, he was clearly on the decline by then, ask anyone that was around back then.
In the 1980's, messier, bossy, middleton, pederson, savard all approached 30+ in the playoffs, in Orr's era 1.6ppg was topped 3 times. By lafluer, espo and orr. Not 2nd tier stars like middleton, pederson, savard, kurri, etc. I guess all 4 of them were better playoff performers than orr too.
Heck make a poll then, orr 1972 vs coffey 1986(leeching off gretzky). Orr would win in a landslide.
Either way, your entire argument rests on coffey playing with gretzky vs orr. Even Bernie Nicholls scored 150 with gretzky, lol big deal.
What happened to coffey once Lemieux missed 21 games in 1990, and 55 games in 1991, his offense dropped and he was outscored by maccinnis and bourque, thats the real paul coffey.
From 1976-78, Brad Park replaced orr and was in the middle of his prime, where were his norrises and art rosses? I mean according to you, scoring over 100 points on those bruins teams were no biggie. Why did he only score 79 points in 1978? 3 years earlier Orr hit 135.
Did you just say the 1991 flames that maccinnis played on were not loaded? Fleury, gilmour, niewendyk, makarov, maccinnis and gary suter. Lol yeah, thats not a loaded team.
What would you say Orr's scoring finishes would have been if he had played on the 80s Oilers?
Probably six 2nd place finishes. Kurri, goulet and stastny wont outscore him. Heck if Orr is with gretzky, he would probably hit 160-180 and have a plus 125.
1970: esposito and mikita
1971: esposito, hull
1972: esposito, ratelle
1973 and 1974: esposito and bobby clarke
1975: Esposito, dionne, lafluer, clarke
I dont see any season where coffey would be a threat and he wouldnt have gretzky or mario to help him out in the 70's.
Transplant Orr into the 80s with Grezky/Lemieux/Yzerman and Co, and I could say the same thing. Orr had the higher offensive peak but its closer then people think.
Probably six 2nd place finishes. Kurri, goulet and stastny wont outscore him. Heck if Orr is with gretzky, he would probably hit 160-180 and have a plus 125.
Keep in mind that Orr would not be the focal point anymore on the Oilers, and would have to fit into a five man unit, team game.
Transplant Orr into the 80s with Grezky/Lemieux/Yzerman and Co, and I could say the same thing. Orr had the higher offensive peak but its closer then people think.
You can say what? That he would only finish 2nd, 3rd, 5th, 6th, 6th and 9th like coffey, nah he would finish much better.
Keep in mind that Orr would not be the focal point anymore on the Oilers, and would have to fit into five man unit team game.
he would be allowed to focus more on offense and be a 4th forward like coffey was. Either way put coffey into orr's era and he doesnt produce the same results because orr is simply better, the poll results speak for themselves. If orr was on edmonton, the hart trophy races would get interesting.
he would be allowed to focus more on offense and be a 4th forward like coffey was. Either way put coffey into orr's era and he doesnt produce the same results because orr is simply better, the poll results speak for themselves. If orr was on edmonton, the hart trophy races would get interesting.
Fair enough, but realistically speaking, would Orr ever win a scoring title playing on the 80s Oilers?
Fair enough, but realistically speaking, would Orr ever win a scoring title playing on the 80s Oilers?
from 82-87 no. Could he win an art ross in 1980 or 81, probably. Heck in 1988, mario scored 168 points, but savard had 131, I think a prime orr would have a decent shot at it. Same thing with 1990 or 1991, prime orr vs la kings gretzky would make for interesting scoring races. 1982-87, 1989 and 1993 is the only period where orr would not win an art ross.
from 82-87 no. Could he win an art ross in 1980 or 81, probably. Heck in 1988, mario scored 168 points, but savard had 131, I think a prime orr would have a decent shot at it. Same thing with 1990 or 1991, prime orr vs la kings gretzky would make for interesting scoring races. 1982-87 and 1993 is the only period where orr would not win an art ross.
In 1988, Gretz was injured for 16 games, and was on pace for around 190 points before the injury. Prior to 82, Gretz was a teenager. Anyways, I really don't see Orr winning a scoring title against prime Gretz.
You can say what? That he would only finish 2nd, 3rd, 5th, 6th, 6th and 9th like coffey, nah he would finish much better.
I don't see him finishing any higher than 3rd. Even 3rd place had stiff competition, you had to score upwards of 150+ points just for the bronze. in 1988 for example, 150 points was 4th place.
Interesting to see how people react to this topic with "it isn't even close" when tons of contemporary people were directly comparing them for being so similar.
Offensively, they were close over their best handful of years. I still think Orr was a little bit better offensively but it is hard to tell who played in the more ideal situation for them and what effect that had on their offensive ceilings.
I don't see him finishing any higher than 3rd. Even 3rd place had stiff competition, you had to score upwards of 150+ points just for the bronze. in 1988 for example, 150 points was 4th place.
Um no, he would finish 2nd many times between 1982 and 1987, regardless this is just scoring finishes, I see orr winning hart trophies in the 80s and there is nothing you can say that will change my opinion. Orr would score more points than coffey did lol, they arent on the same level. Even nicholls hit 150 with gretzky
Okay clearly you arent taking eras into context. No everyone didnt have an off-year in 170 except orr, before 1970 scoring in general was low, suggesting coffey without gretzky or mario would have outscored mikita that season is laughable.
Before Orr arrived, what was boston's offense like? yeah thats what i thought.
Unless you think 19 year old Bobby Orr's 31 points were the most important 31 points ever and his mere prescence was enough to generate goals, then Boston was easily the number one offense in the NHL before Orr had become the offensive force he later turned into.
Quote:
Scoring was evenly distributed in 1986? Okay, what does that have to do with the fact that players like goulet were scoring over 120 points, while hall of famers from orr's era where scoring 80-95 at most.
That's easy. Boston was a pro team and the Golden Seals were Junior Varsity. Unequal distribution of talent made it easier for Orr to rack up points. Orr scored 33 of his 139 points in 12 games against the Kings and Golden Seals in 70-71.
By playing against expansion teams he got to run up point totals he wouldn't be able to hit in a league with more balanced distribution of talent.
Quote:
You talk as if any defenseman could have played for the bruins in the 70's and tear the league apart, your argument is such a joke. If scoring was so easy back then, then how come from 1970-1979, no defenseman even came within 30 points of orr's best years? Heck montreal and islanders of the late 70's were stacked, yet robinson and potvin never came close to matching orr? Park joined boston and his offense was nowhere near orr's.
Any defenseman? I don't think I said Lee Fogolin could do it. Nor did I ever mention Brad Park. Among offensive defencemen, Paul Coffey is fairly good, even if his best seven years is clearly a step behind Orr.
As for Potvin and Robinson, Potvin's team wasn't stacked offensively in the same was as Orr/Coffey teams were. Boston did finish #1 in goal scoring from 1968-1974. As did the Oil from 1982-1987. Had Denis Potvin played with an environment with a more stacked offense he would have gotten closer to Orr, even if he wouldn't be able to match him. Again, I did say Orr was best. Just not miles ahead of Paul Coffey.
Quote:
In 1975 and 1976, buyck was 30 points away from cracking a top 5 scoring list, thats the equivalent of 65 point season right now.
So you're saying that in 1975 Orr carried Bucyk to the equivalent of a 65 point season? And without Orr, Bucyk's level of production was unchanged?
...
I don't see how that helps your point in the slightest.
Quote:
Boston had 4 of the top 100 scorers in 1971 because of Orr you kid, if you think park or lapointe or coffey would have been on that team and hodge,bucyck, espo would still put up the same point totals, then i dont see any credibility from you. How often did bucyck outscore hull by 20 points prior to the arrival of orr?
The same point totals? No, but if you take away every goal Orr assisted on, Espo still leads the NHL in goals in 1971. So he might have been an okay player on his own. Hodge would have had 34 goals with no Orr assists. So these guys could score on their own. It's not like Gretzky/MacDonald or Gretzky/Krushelnyki. And if you replaced Bobby Orr with Paul Coffey, maybe they can get close to their actual totals.
How much of that is because of Orr and how much of it was because of Esposito? How much because of Boston being one of the few loaded teams in a watered down era?
Bucyk was not chopped liver without Bobby Orr and Espo. He would not have hit the same heights, but he did narrowly outscore a 24 year old Bobby Hull 8 years earlier before he outscored a 32 year old Hull with the help of Orr, Espo, and Hodge. Orr didn't help on all of his 556 goals.
Quote:
Yeah espo was washed up because as soon as he was traded, he was no longer top 15 in scoring, i look at where they rank in the scoring race, not raw totals. In 1975 he didnt get a single hart vote and he was basically used on the powerplay, he was clearly on the decline by then, ask anyone that was around back then.
Espo did okay for an old guy...
76-77 13th in goals, 17th in points
77-78 13th in goals, 15th in points
78-79 8th in goals, 21st in points
79-80 33rd in goals, 28th in points
...but it's not a perfect test. Perhaps we could tell more clearly had Espo kept playing on the Bruins who stayed in 3rd to 5th in GF for the rest of the decade. Instead he went to a Rangers team that dumped their two best players to get him.
Going from a top offense to a non-playoff team didn't help Espo's totals any.
As for being washed up IN 1975, Espo's 30 ES goals were still among the best in the NHL. He may have slowed down from 50 ES goals in 1974, but that's still 6th in the NHL.
Quote:
In the 1980's, messier, bossy, middleton, pederson, savard all approached 30+ in the playoffs, in Orr's era 1.6ppg was topped 3 times. By lafluer, espo and orr. Not 2nd tier stars like middleton, pederson, savard, kurri, etc. I guess all 4 of them were better playoff performers than orr too.
I adjusted for era using Goals Per Game as you suggested. When you adjust for era Paul Coffey's 1985 playoff run was more productive offensively than Bobby Orr's 1972.
Besides being near 30 isn't the same as being at 37 in 18 games. And I don't think you will ever find that straw man anywhere in my posts.
Quote:
Heck make a poll then, orr 1972 vs coffey 1986(leeching off gretzky). Orr would win in a landslide.
Either way, your entire argument rests on coffey playing with gretzky vs orr. Even Bernie Nicholls scored 150 with gretzky, lol big deal.
What if we said which is better offensively, Coffey - 85 playoffs (12G, 25A, 37 Pts, 1.66 PPG by 72 standards) vs Orr - 72 playoffs (5G, 19A, 24 Pts, 1.60 PPG)
And if you keep making points like these I can't imagine how you could put Gretzky's career behind Orr.
Quote:
What happened to coffey once Lemieux missed 21 games in 1990, and 55 games in 1991, his offense dropped and he was outscored by maccinnis and bourque, thats the real paul coffey.
He scored 103 points and was 9th in the NHL in 1990. I wonder who that mysterious stranger was who masqueraded as Paul Coffey and won the Norris while leading the 1995 Red Wings in scoring. That Coffey led the Fedorov-Yzerman-Primeau Wings team is a good example of how he might be able to lead a balanced team like the 1970s Bruins in scoring, where there was no Superman to compete with.
Quote:
From 1976-78, Brad Park replaced orr and was in the middle of his prime, where were his norrises and art rosses? I mean according to you, scoring over 100 points on those bruins teams were no biggie. Why did he only score 79 points in 1978? 3 years earlier Orr hit 135.
Brad Park? Again, I never mentioned him, so I don't know why you keep bringing him up. But I'm sure Denis Potvin and Paul Coffey could have hit 100 on those Bruins teams.
Quote:
Did you just say the 1991 flames that maccinnis played on were not loaded? Fleury, gilmour, niewendyk, makarov, maccinnis and gary suter. Lol yeah, thats not a loaded team.
I understand that you like name value, but finishing 2 goals ahead of second and 4 goals ahead of third isn't loaded.
Loaded is finishing #1 from 1968-74, or 1982-87. Loaded is finishing at least 1 goal PER GAME above second place, as the Bruins and Oilers did. The Flames were only two goals up at the end of 80 games. That's not loaded, at least not anywhere near the Bs and the Oil.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ushvinder
from 82-87 no. Could he win an art ross in 1980 or 81, probably. Heck in 1988, mario scored 168 points, but savard had 131, I think a prime orr would have a decent shot at it. Same thing with 1990 or 1991, prime orr vs la kings gretzky would make for interesting scoring races. 1982-87, 1989 and 1993 is the only period where orr would not win an art ross.
In 1991 Wayne Gretzky scored 163 points and the NHL GPG was 3.46
In 1975 Bobby Orr scored 135 points and the NHL GPG was 3.43
Taking into account that there are no more Golden Seals, I don't think Orr's point totals could have pushed 2 points per game in 1991.
Adjusted points are very kind to players in the 1970s since they don't care that the Bruins and Habs beat on a lot of expansion teams, yet Orr's best adjusted point total doesn't come anywhere near Lemieux 88 or Gretzky 91.
If you just subtract Wayne Gretzky from the 1979-80 Oilers and add Bobby Orr, I don't think he gets to 137 without having the opportunity to thrash the Seals et al.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ushvinder
Um no, he would finish 2nd many times between 1982 and 1987, regardless this is just scoring finishes, I see orr winning hart trophies in the 80s and there is nothing you can say that will change my opinion. Orr would score more points than coffey did lol, they arent on the same level. Even nicholls hit 150 with gretzky
How about because the presence of Gretzky wouldn't let him? It's the Wayne Gretzky show. In 1980s Edmonton, Bobby Orr doesn't get the puck as often as he did in Boston in the 1970s. Considering how many primary assists Gretzky had, it's clear that he's running the offense whether you notice it or not.
Orr was usually in on 55% of his TGF. Gretzky's was consistently over 80%.
The point gap between Gretzky and Orr would be so great that it would look like this very talented defenceman was just leeching off of the Great One. Ushvinder in an alternate reality would ask loaded questions like "Who was better: Paul Coffey in 1972, or Orr in 86 (leeching off Gretzky)?"
Besides, if he can't take a Hart away from Bobby Clarke in 1975, how on earth can he take one from Wayne Gretzky at his peak?
Quote:
Originally Posted by BraveCanadian
Interesting to see how people react to this topic with "it isn't even close" when tons of contemporary people were directly comparing them for being so similar.
Offensively, they were close over their best handful of years. I still think Orr was a little bit better offensively but it is hard to tell who played in the more ideal situation for them and what effect that had on their offensive ceilings.
I concur.
Last edited by blogofmike: 02-20-2012 at 06:15 PM.
Reason: fix quote
Unless you think 19 year old Bobby Orr's 31 points were the most important 31 points ever and his mere prescence was enough to generate goals, then Boston was easily the number one offense in the NHL before Orr had become the offensive force he later turned into.
That's easy. Boston was a pro team and the Golden Seals were Junior Varsity. Unequal distribution of talent made it easier for Orr to rack up points. Orr scored 33 of his 139 points in 12 games against the Kings and Golden Seals in 70-71.
By playing against expansion teams he got to run up point totals he wouldn't be able to hit in a league with more balanced distribution of talent.
Any defenseman? I don't think I said Lee Fogolin could do it. Nor did I ever mention Brad Park. Among offensive defencemen, Paul Coffey is fairly good, even if his best seven years is clearly a step behind Orr.
As for Potvin and Robinson, Potvin's team wasn't stacked offensively in the same was as Orr/Coffey teams were. Boston did finish #1 in goal scoring from 1968-1974. As did the Oil from 1982-1987. Had Denis Potvin played with an environment with a more stacked offense he would have gotten closer to Orr, even if he wouldn't be able to match him. Again, I did say Orr was best. Just not miles ahead of Paul Coffey.
So you're saying that in 1975 Orr carried Bucyk to the equivalent of a 65 point season? And without Orr, Bucyk's level of production was unchanged?
...
I don't see how that helps your point in the slightest.
The same point totals? No, but if you take away every goal Orr assisted on, Espo still leads the NHL in goals in 1971. So he might have been an okay player on his own. Hodge would have had 34 goals with no Orr assists. So these guys could score on their own. It's not like Gretzky/MacDonald or Gretzky/Krushelnyki. And if you replaced Bobby Orr with Paul Coffey, maybe they can get close to their actual totals.
How much of that is because of Orr and how much of it was because of Esposito? How much because of Boston being one of the few loaded teams in a watered down era?
Bucyk was not chopped liver without Bobby Orr and Espo. He would not have hit the same heights, but he did narrowly outscore a 24 year old Bobby Hull 8 years earlier before he outscored a 32 year old Hull with the help of Orr, Espo, and Hodge. Orr didn't help on all of his 556 goals.
Espo did okay for an old guy...
76-77 13th in goals, 17th in points
77-78 13th in goals, 15th in points
78-79 8th in goals, 21st in points
79-80 33rd in goals, 28th in points
...but it's not a perfect test. Perhaps we could tell more clearly had Espo kept playing on the Bruins who stayed in 3rd to 5th in GF for the rest of the decade. Instead he went to a Rangers team that dumped their two best players to get him.
Going from a top offense to a non-playoff team didn't help Espo's totals any.
As for being washed up IN 1975, Espo's 30 ES goals were still among the best in the NHL. He may have slowed down from 50 ES goals in 1974, but that's still 6th in the NHL.
I adjusted for era using Goals Per Game as you suggested. When you adjust for era Paul Coffey's 1985 playoff run was more productive offensively than Bobby Orr's 1972.
Besides being near 30 isn't the same as being at 37 in 18 games. And I don't think you will ever find that straw man anywhere in my posts.
What if we said which is better offensively, Coffey - 85 playoffs (12G, 25A, 37 Pts, 1.66 PPG by 72 standards) vs Orr - 72 playoffs (5G, 19A, 24 Pts, 1.60 PPG)
And if you keep making points like these I can't imagine how you could put Gretzky's career behind Orr.
He scored 103 points and was 9th in the NHL in 1990. I wonder who that mysterious stranger was who masqueraded as Paul Coffey and won the Norris while leading the 1995 Red Wings in scoring. That Coffey led the Fedorov-Yzerman-Primeau Wings team is a good example of how he might be able to lead a balanced team like the 1970s Bruins in scoring, where there was no Superman to compete with.
Brad Park? Again, I never mentioned him, so I don't know why you keep bringing him up. But I'm sure Denis Potvin and Paul Coffey could have hit 100 on those Bruins teams.
I understand that you like name value, but finishing 2 goals ahead of second and 4 goals ahead of third isn't loaded.
Loaded is finishing #1 from 1968-74, or 1982-87. Loaded is finishing at least 1 goal PER GAME above second place, as the Bruins and Oilers did. The Flames were only two goals up at the end of 80 games. That's not loaded, at least not anywhere near the Bs and the Oil.
In 1991 Wayne Gretzky scored 163 points and the NHL GPG was 3.46
In 1975 Bobby Orr scored 135 points and the NHL GPG was 3.43
Taking into account that there are no more Golden Seals, I don't think Orr's point totals could have pushed 2 points per game in 1991.
Adjusted points are very kind to players in the 1970s since they don't care that the Bruins and Habs beat on a lot of expansion teams, yet Orr's best adjusted point total doesn't come anywhere near Lemieux 88 or Gretzky 91.
If you just subtract Wayne Gretzky from the 1979-80 Oilers and add Bobby Orr, I don't think he gets to 137 without having the opportunity to thrash the Seals et al.
How about because the presence of Gretzky wouldn't let him? It's the Wayne Gretzky show. In 1980s Edmonton, Bobby Orr doesn't get the puck as often as he did in Boston in the 1970s. Considering how many primary assists Gretzky had, it's clear that he's running the offense whether you notice it or not.
Orr was usually in on 55% of his TGF. Gretzky's was consistently over 80%.
The point gap between Gretzky and Orr would be so great that it would look like this very talented defenceman was just leeching off of the Great One. Ushvinder in an alternate reality would ask loaded questions like "Who was better: Paul Coffey in 1972, or Orr in 86 (leeching off Gretzky)?"
Besides, if he can't take a Hart away from Bobby Clarke in 1975, how on earth can he take one from Wayne Gretzky at his peak?
I concur.
Well, they probably are the most important 31 points ever considering that Orr was a hart finalist in 1968 and finished ahead of Espo that year in hart voting.
You are in the minority if you think a peak orr would not have won any harts over gretzky. You seem to think gretzky is clearly of a higher caliber than orr, most of the history section would disagree. These posts you are making about bobby orr are so ignorant it isnt even worth responding. The way you talk about him shows that you have seen very limited footage of him, now go back to your stats.
Another thing, if Orr played in such a bad league during the early 70's. How come ratelle only scored 74 points in 1970? Mahovlich only finished with 71, mikita with 86, cournoyer barely scored over 60. These guys were basically the bossy's, stastny's goulets of that era and they could barely hit over a ppg, while Orr obliberated the league. Damn ratelle must have been a bum if he could only score 71 points over those expansion teams, coffey would have butchered the league and hit over 100, lol your funny. The nhl in the early 70's was much more defensive minded than the 80's, coffey would struggle to hit 90.
Yeah Coffey finishing 9th when Lemieux missed games, then not even cracking the top 10 the next season, shows his real offense. As for 1995, he was playing with some guy named fedorov, who not only scored at the same pace, but had a much better overall game. Finishing 6th and 9th is a far cry from winning an art ross.
Stop talking in coded language, you clearly think orr's offense was inflated and he really only has the offensive abilities of a selanne or perrault, why dont you just flat out say it? heck bourque or red kelly would have torched the league with those 70's bruins right?
Adam Oates scored at a pace of 151 points in 1991, but orr's point totals would remain the same? Marcel Dionne scored 137 in 1980 but Orr cant pull it off because he wont play against varsity teams? And you see why i think your opinion is laughable.
It appears that in Orr's best five-year period (1971-1975) he was in on 53% of ESG that he was on the ice for. In Coffey's best five-year period (1983-1987) he was in on 50%.
To see if these numbers meant anything, I did the same thing for Ray Bourque, and the best he could do over five years (1988-1992) was 47%.
Well, they probably are the most important 31 points ever considering that Orr was a hart finalist in 1968 and finished ahead of Espo that year in hart voting.
Quick show of hands, who agrees with the assertion that Orr's 31 points were absolutely integral to Boston scoring 259 goals?
No one said Orr had a bad 1968 season overall, but his offensive production was neither amazing nor was it crucial to Boston's rank as the #1 offense in the NHL.
Quote:
You are in the minority if you think a peak orr would not have won any harts over gretzky. You seem to think gretzky is clearly of a higher caliber than orr, most of the history section would disagree. These posts you are making about bobby orr are so ignorant it isnt even worth responding. The way you talk about him shows that you have seen very limited footage of him, now go back to your stats.
I will go back to my stats. Gretzky had 9 Harts and Orr had 3. If you take Orr into the future and gerrymander it to maximize his number of Hart trophies he can steal from Gretzky, Orr70 can take Gretzky80. Orr71 is a tossup with Gretzky81, but we'll give it to Orr just because. Orr72 might prevent a voter or two from giving Gretzky his unanimous Hart, but he'd never take it outright. For all years following Gretzky won Harts and Orr did not and I don't think anyone would say Gretzky's 80's years were weaker than any of the guys who beat Orr for a Hart.
Unless you think Bobby Clarke could easily outdo a Gretzky season where his assist total was greater than anyone else's point totals.
Orr wins less than two if you choose to line him up with Gretzky 82-87. Which is what you chose to do. I never brought up that span. You did. Since that puts Orr's best season (1970) head to head with Gretzky's 50 in 39 year where he set new records for goals, assists and points, I think Orr's number of Harts might be zero.
Quote:
Another thing, if Orr played in such a bad league during the early 70's. How come ratelle only scored 74 points in 1970? Mahovlich only finished with 71, mikita with 86, cournoyer barely scored over 60. These guys were basically the bossy's, stastny's goulets of that era and they could barely hit over a ppg, while Orr obliberated the league. Damn ratelle must have been a bum if he could only score 71 points over those expansion teams, coffey would have butchered the league and hit over 100, lol your funny. The nhl in the early 70's was much more defensive minded than the 80's, coffey would struggle to hit 90.
So Coffey could hit 90? Because that puts him in range to win an Art Ross in 1970 since Espo's point total would decline with the transition from Orr to Coffey.
Coffey outscored the Stastny and Bossy of his era (Stastny and Bossy) in his best seasons, where he finished behind only Gretzky and Lemieux in points in 1984 and 1986.
As for 1970, I said it was an off year because scoring records were set the year immediately before and after. There was plenty of scoring in 1969 and 1971. But not in 1970.
Quote:
Yeah Coffey finishing 9th when Lemieux missed games, then not even cracking the top 10 the next season, shows his real offense. As for 1995, he was playing with some guy named fedorov, who not only scored at the same pace, but had a much better overall game. Finishing 6th and 9th is a far cry from winning an art ross.
And winning an Art Ross in 1970 is a far cry from scoring 206-216 points, which Orr would have had to do if he wanted one during Coffey's peak. He's the best offensive defenceman ever and all, but Orr's not THAT good.
Coffey95 led the Wings in points. Detroit finished 3rd in scoring with 180 GF. Had the Wings been a historically loaded offense like the 80s Oilers or 70s Bruins that was a 1 goal per game ahead of second place, he may have had a chance.
Quote:
Stop talking in coded language, you clearly think orr's offense was inflated and he really only has the offensive abilities of a selanne or perrault, why dont you just flat out say it? heck bourque or red kelly would have torched the league with those 70's bruins right?
I don't understand the "coded language" claim and will try to be more clear if you can explain.
I'm sure plenty of defenders from other eras would have done well, but not been in Ross contention. I think peak Coffey was far better (offensively) than Bourque and Kelly. The top 10 single season point totals by defenders belong to Orr, Coffey, Orr, Coffey, Orr, Coffey, Orr, Orr, Coffey and Coffey.
That's my argument right there: Orr is a step above Coffey, but Coffey is a step above the next guy too, and the distance between them is not so great as it appeared everyone thought. I think some people are just looking at the name Orr and that's affecting people's thought processes to the point where they claim that his 31 points were the most awesome 31 points ever because he's Bobby Orr and to think otherwise is blasphemous.
Coffey outscored Mike Bossy and Peter Stastny on a loaded Oilers offense, so why can't he outscore Ratelle and Mikita on a loaded Bruins offense? I don't think he'd do it by as much as Orr, but I think it is possible if Paul Coffey's at his peak on the Boston Bruins. If he plays Orr's role and gets to shoot as much as Orr did (Coff was never getting 400 shots in Edmonton), I think it's very possible that Coffey can outscore Stan Mikita.
Quote:
Adam Oates scored at a pace of 151 points in 1991, but orr's point totals would remain the same? Marcel Dionne scored 137 in 1980 but Orr cant pull it off because he wont play against varsity teams? And you see why i think your opinion is laughable.
Actually I never see why. I try to respond to each of the points you raise, while you tend to veer off into new tangents each time. Finding the basis or your argument is like trying to line up a check on Gretzky or catching Orr from behind.
Your next post will not explain why Orr's 31 points were the greatest 31 points ever, why Orr can't take a Hart from Bobby Clarke but could threaten 6 of Gretzky's best seasons from 82-87, or how Orr's team situation wasn't one of the most advantageous in NHL history.
As for the point you raised (I do try to address them), pace over a partial season is different than actually doing something, but I guess in 1991 Adam Oates had a better pace of offensive production than Bobby Orr did in 1975. That may be related to being in an environment where he built a symbiotic relationship with an 86 goal scorer and in no way suggests that Oates was better overall, but since the goals per game are the same for 1975 and 1991, I don't see how that statement is not true.
In 1971 Orr scored at a 1.94 ppg clip vs expansion teams and 1.53 vs the O6. So he did tend to score more against expansion teams. (And apparently he kept the puck away from Esposito too.) With no Golden Seals to club, Orr would still perform at a high level, but I don't think Orr75 could pull off 164 points in 1991, (especially if he's not on a loaded team), because overall goal scoring between the two seasons is almost exactly the same.
. 
