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David Jones to Pittsburgh

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Old
02-18-2012, 11:00 AM
  #51
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Originally Posted by sparxx87 View Post
If you can even compare the two, then you've lost all credibility with me...


I'm not sure when those obviously new to the game will realize, stats don't hold the sane weight as in baseball... There's so many things in hockey that aren't represented by stats... They call these intangibles.

Hockey is like church - A lot of people go, but few really get it.
So because he puts up stats but doesn't have enough intangibles he is a marginal NHL player?

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02-18-2012, 11:03 AM
  #52
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Originally Posted by sparxx87 View Post
If you can even compare the two, then you've lost all credibility with me...


I'm not sure when those obviously new to the game will realize, stats don't hold the sane weight as in baseball... There's so many things in hockey that aren't represented by stats... They call these intangibles.

Hockey is like church - A lot of people go, but few really get it.
Are you sure you are really "getting it"? I have not seen any evidence to support that notion.

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02-18-2012, 11:08 AM
  #53
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Originally Posted by Goulet17 View Post
Are you sure you are really "getting it"? I have not seen any evidence to support that notion.
Actually, there's probably been evidence to the contrary. Most people who 'get' hockey wouldn't call a player, who on average, scores at a 20+ goals per 82 game pace a marginal player.

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02-18-2012, 11:10 AM
  #54
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Avalanche fans,

If you fall out of the playoff race, what do you see as a fair return for David Jones from Vancouver? I think that he would be very effective on a line with Kesler and Booth.

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02-18-2012, 11:11 AM
  #55
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Originally Posted by Crisp Breakout View Post
So because he puts up stats but doesn't have enough intangibles he is a marginal NHL player?
Do you watch the games? Or just look at the box scores?

GMs usually look at the entire package.. Jones is a marginal 3rd liner on most teams. He gets the edge because of his obvious nose for the net..

Ever wonder why the Caps can't fetch a return on their 40 goal scoring winger? Teams, playoff teams especially, look at more then just the numbers.

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02-18-2012, 11:11 AM
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Originally Posted by trbr86 View Post
Avalanche fans,

If you fall out of the playoff race, what do you see as a fair return for David Jones from Vancouver? I think that he would be very effective on a line with Kesler and Booth.
I'd like a 2nd + mid-level prospect.

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02-18-2012, 11:14 AM
  #57
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Originally Posted by sparxx87 View Post
Do you watch the games? Or just look at the box scores?

GMs usually look at the entire package.. Jones is a marginal 3rd liner on most teams. He gets the edge because of his obvious nose for the net..

Ever wonder why the Caps can't fetch a return on their 40 goal scoring winger? Teams, playoff teams especially, look at more then just the numbers.
Back at you. Do you watch Avalanche games? Marginal 3rd liner?

Hockey is about finding a niche for most players. He's found his and while streaky scores at a high rate. It's not as if every player must have a base skill set and then goals are gravy. If this were the Swiss National Team then sure, but it's not.

Out of curiosity what would you have called Tomas Holmstrom a few years ago?

EDIT: Also, I didn't realize the Caps were shopping Semin, but thanks for that new info.

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02-18-2012, 11:20 AM
  #58
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Originally Posted by Crisp Breakout View Post
Actually, there's probably been evidence to the contrary. Most people who 'get' hockey wouldn't call a player, who on average, scores at a 20+ goals per 82 game pace a marginal player.
Anytime you'd like to compare credentials?

If I have to explain to you why David Jones is a below average NHL player, we're done here. There's a laundry list of 3rd liners who put up some decent numbers playing in a favorable situation.

If you see Jones as more, good. That's your opinion, we'll agree to disagree.

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02-18-2012, 11:28 AM
  #59
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Originally Posted by Crisp Breakout View Post
Back at you. Do you watch Avalanche games? Marginal 3rd liner?

Hockey is about finding a niche for most players. He's found his and while streaky scores at a high rate. It's not as if every player must have a base skill set and then goals are gravy. If this were the Swiss National Team then sure, but it's not.

Out of curiosity what would you have called Tomas Holmstrom a few years ago?

EDIT: Also, I didn't realize the Caps were shopping Semin, but thanks for that new info.
The Caps would love to move Semin if they could get a solid return... Nobody wants to give up the assets for the guy.

To be completely honest, I have seen maybe 4 Avs games the year... I played with Chris Stewart growing up so I followed them very closely up until he was traded..

My opinion is an informed one, although clearly it varies from yours. So be it, we're done here.

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02-18-2012, 11:29 AM
  #60
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Originally Posted by sparxx87 View Post
Anytime you'd like to compare credentials?

If I have to explain to you why David Jones is a below average NHL player, we're done here. There's a laundry list of 3rd liners who put up some decent numbers playing in a favorable situation.

If you see Jones as more, good. That's your opinion, we'll agree to disagree.
Please explain why he's a marginal third liner. I'm dying to hear it.

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02-18-2012, 11:32 AM
  #61
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Originally Posted by sparxx87 View Post
Anytime you'd like to compare credentials?

If I have to explain to you why David Jones is a below average NHL player, we're done here. There's a laundry list of 3rd liners who put up some decent numbers playing in a favorable situation.


If you see Jones as more, good. That's your opinion, we'll agree to disagree.
Marginal third liners don't put up 27 goals. If he's taking advantage if linemates and a certain situation, then good for him. A lot of marginal 3rd liners could be put in that same situation and never be able to produce. Avs dans should know that better than anybody else. Look at Porter and Winnik. Both have got long looks with Stastny and have not produced. Just because a player, if not in that situation, would not produce as much, does not IMO, lower his value. If a player is able to adapt and benefit from a situation and put up 27 goals, then I no longer see how you can call him a 3rd liner. Perhaps if he was played on the 3rd line, then he'd be a 3rd liner. Shall I call Burrows a 3rd liner because he plays with the Sedins? What about Neal? Do you think he'd be even close to his numbers right now without Malkin? A players value to his team is based of his production, regardless of situation. The Avs value Jones as a top 6 20 goal scorer. If you don't value him as that, fine. Please don't come and degrade him and bash his numbers simply because he took advantage of an opportunity.

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02-18-2012, 11:37 AM
  #62
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Originally Posted by sparxx87 View Post
If you can even compare the two, then you've lost all credibility with me...


I'm not sure when those obviously new to the game will realize, stats don't hold the sane weight as in baseball... There's so many things in hockey that aren't represented by stats... They call these intangibles.

Hockey is like church - A lot of people go, but few really get it.


Let's look at facts

Over 291 games (which is a decent NHL career) Kulemin has 147 points, which works out to a .50 PPG ratio for his career... which works out to 41 points over a season... He has .226 goals per game ratio, which works out to 18.6 goals per year... to me that screams mariginal 2nd liner.

Jones on the contrary has 103 points in 216 games for .476 PPG or 39 points over a year... and 59 goals over 216 games for average of 22 goals per year....

Looking at their offensive stats, they are very comparable.... Kulemin averages 2 more points over 82 games for his career than Jones, but Jones averages roughly 4 more goals than Kulemin... all in all, offensive output is about equal as it can get.

Yes, Kulemin is more complete and brings more on defensive end, but for how you went off on the deep end here is really silly.

Both players are marginal 2nd liners... Neither would be on a the 2nd line of a cup contending team, but certainly can play in that role for a bubble playoff team.

Kulemin would hold more value as well in my opinion, and is the better player... but they are comparable and you shouldn't be insulting posters for making such a comparisons.


As for Jones, I think a late 1st rounder would make Avs say yes... a 2nd rounder + decent prospect would work too... but just a 2nd rounder isn't enough value for them to let Jones go in my opinion.

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02-18-2012, 11:45 AM
  #63
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You mean stats?

Well, maybe you could suggest to Sherman that stats should be the sole measuring stick in evaluating a player? I mean, think of the money you could save on scouting.

And why are you comparing Kulemin? Not only does he have nothing to do with this thread, but they're totally different players?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Uncle Howie View Post


Let's look at facts

Over 291 games (which is a decent NHL career) Kulemin has 147 points, which works out to a .50 PPG ratio for his career... which works out to 41 points over a season... He has .226 goals per game ratio, which works out to 18.6 goals per year... to me that screams mariginal 2nd liner.

Jones on the contrary has 103 points in 216 games for .476 PPG or 39 points over a year... and 59 goals over 216 games for average of 22 goals per year....

Looking at their offensive stats, they are very comparable.

Yes, Kulemin is more complete and brings more on defensive end, but for how you went off on the deep end here is really silly.

Both players are marginal 2nd liners... Neither would be on a the 2nd line of a cup contending team, but certainly can play in that role for a bubble playoff team.

Kulemin would hold more value as well in my opinion, and is the better player... but they are comparable and you shouldn't be insulting posters for making such a comparisons.


As for Jones, I think a late 1st rounder would make Avs say yes... a 2nd rounder + decent prospect would work too... but just a 2nd rounder isn't enough value for them to let Jones go in my opinion.

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02-18-2012, 11:48 AM
  #64
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sparxx87 View Post
You mean stats?

Well, maybe you could suggest to Sherman that stats should be the sole measuring stick in evaluating a player? I mean, think of the money you could save on scouting.

And why are you comparing Kulemin? Not only does he have nothing to do with this thread, but they're totally different players?
Because you were hyper sensitive due to another poster comparing Jones/Kulemin and insulting that posters hockey knowledge... when infact I am showing you that it is a reasonable comparison...

If you can't get that... well... I don't know what else to say to you.

Anyways... I think late 1st or 2nd + prospect is good for Jones.

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02-18-2012, 11:52 AM
  #65
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Originally Posted by sparxx87 View Post
You mean stats?

Well, maybe you could suggest to Sherman that stats should be the sole measuring stick in evaluating a player? I mean, think of the money you could save on scouting.

And why are you comparing
Kulemin? Not only does he have nothing to do with this thread, but they're totally different players?
Not to be mean here or anything and I agree with some if what your saying but what are you valuing Jones off of? Your opinion? You yourself admitted you watch him 4
times a year, yet you state with incredible confidence that he's a 3rd liner? What are you basing this off? His linemates? Your opinion? I agree stats only tell part of the story, but it seems to me stats in this situation are a lot more reliable than bringing up his linemates.

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02-18-2012, 11:53 AM
  #66
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Originally Posted by Uncle Howie View Post
Because you were hyper sensitive due to another poster comparing Jones/Kulemin and insulting that posters hockey knowledge... when infact I am showing you that it is a reasonable comparison...

If you can't get that... well... I don't know what else to say to you.

Anyways... I think late 1st or 2nd + prospect is good for Jones.
By comparing numbers? Datsyuk and Kessel are comparable then? Milan Lucic, and Max Pacioretty(sp?)

Numbers are similar = players are similar... Right?

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02-18-2012, 11:59 AM
  #67
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Originally Posted by sparxx87 View Post
By comparing numbers? Datsyuk and Kessel are comparable then? Milan Lucic, and Max Pacioretty(sp?)

Numbers are similar = players are similar... Right?
Where'd you come up with Datsyuk and Kessel? Before this year Kessel had a career high of 60 points. I dont feel like researching right now but I don't think their stats are close. Oh, and Datsyuk is a Selke caliber player every year. I get your point here: stars don't tell everything. But Kulmein isn't a Selke caliber forward, and his point totals are very comparable to Jones.


And about Lucic and Pacioretty I'm a little confused by your point here. Are you saying Pacioretty is the better player or Lucic?

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02-18-2012, 12:00 PM
  #68
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sparxx87 View Post
By comparing numbers? Datsyuk and Kessel are comparable then? Milan Lucic, and Max Pacioretty(sp?)

Numbers are similar = players are similar... Right?
Ummm...

I seen plenty of both players... my brother is die had Avs so seen lots of their games over the years, and living in Ontario every Leaf game is broadcasted some where so seen lots of those.

I used numbers to show how overboard and ridicolous you look with your attacks on another poster for a fair/reasonable comparison.

No where am I insulting or putting down Kulemin or Jones, I am juist saying its a fair comparison... your saying I am wrong??...

Tell me why.

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02-18-2012, 12:02 PM
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Originally Posted by Avs44 View Post
Not to be mean here or anything and I agree with some if what your saying but what are you valuing Jones off of? Your opinion? You yourself admitted you watch him 4
times a year, yet you state with incredible confidence that he's a 3rd liner? What are you basing this off? His linemates? Your opinion? I agree stats only tell part of the story, but it seems to me stats in this situation are a lot more reliable than bringing up his linemates.
Yes, my opinion.

Not stats, or his prospect info page...


I watched haven't seen a lot this year, but I saw enough last year to form an opinion... Feel free to disagree.

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02-18-2012, 12:06 PM
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Kennedy, while struggling, was still on pace for 43pts in 82 games (34pts in 67 at this point). The guy shoots the puck from just about anywhere on the ice. He's 3rd out of the forwards for shots per game (3.3). But when TK struggles, he's still a solid 2-way player that is a buzz-saw of a forechecker. I don't think Jones has that aspect to his game. Also, I have a feeling Jones tests the market where Shero can get him for nothing.

Jones is on pace for 18 goals and 34pts in 72 games, about the same point production as Tyler Kennedy.

I guess I am completely underrating Tyler Kennedy's worth around here if David Jones is worth a 2nd + prospect (or a good prospect).
Kennedy is one of those players that you aren't sure how he gets points though. I've never seen TK carry the play. He's not offensively creative at all. He just fires, and it's not a surprise to see his S% is 4.3%....

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02-18-2012, 12:07 PM
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Originally Posted by Uncle Howie View Post
Ummm...

I seen plenty of both players... my brother is die had Avs so seen lots of their games over the years, and living in Ontario every Leaf game is broadcasted some where so seen lots of those.

I used numbers to show how overboard and ridicolous you look with your attacks on another poster for a fair/reasonable comparison.

No where am I insulting or putting down Kulemin or Jones, I am juist saying its a fair comparison... your saying I am wrong??...

Tell me why.
I just did.

You're comparing numbers, not the player... That's why I gave the Lucic/Pacioretty and Kessel/Datsyuk examples.. Similar numbers doesn't make them similar players.

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02-18-2012, 12:25 PM
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Originally Posted by sparxx87 View Post
I just did.

You're comparing numbers, not the player... That's why I gave the Lucic/Pacioretty and Kessel/Datsyuk examples.. Similar numbers doesn't make them similar players.
Those are some awful comparisons. Datsyuk gas a career PPGA of 0.99. Kessel's is 0.71. The difference is even bigger if you look at just the past couple years. I'm also confused by the Lucic/Pacioretty one. What's the point?

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02-18-2012, 12:32 PM
  #73
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Originally Posted by sparxx87 View Post
I just did.

You're comparing numbers, not the player... That's why I gave the Lucic/Pacioretty and Kessel/Datsyuk examples.. Similar numbers doesn't make them similar players.
Except the argument has nothing to do with being similar players. It's whether or not they have similar value.

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02-18-2012, 12:33 PM
  #74
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sparxx87 View Post
I just did.

You're comparing numbers, not the player... That's why I gave the Lucic/Pacioretty and Kessel/Datsyuk examples.. Similar numbers doesn't make them similar players.
No you didn't... you talked about Kessel/Datsyuk, not Jones/Kulemin

I can continue with stating it is a fair comparison...

Kulemin ATOI for this year is 15:08
Joes ATOI for this year is 15:09

Again... other than your obviously biased opinion, what else can you bring to the table that makes this comparison so outlandish?

I am nod disagreeing Kulemin is better, he is... but the gap between Kessel/Datsyuk is far larger than the gap between Kulemin/Jones whether you want to accept that or not.

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02-18-2012, 12:41 PM
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Originally Posted by Uncle Howie View Post
No you didn't... you talked about Kessel/Datsyuk, not Jones/Kulemin

I can continue with stating it is a fair comparison...

Kulemin ATOI for this year is 15:08
Joes ATOI for this year is 15:09

Again... other than your obviously biased opinion, what else can you bring to the table that makes this comparison so outlandish?

I am nod disagreeing Kulemin is better, he is... but the gap between Kessel/Datsyuk is far larger than the gap between Kulemin/Jones whether you want to accept that or not.
I never brought Kulemin in the discussion, nor did I make any comparisons between him and Jones?

I just named 4 completely different players with similar numbers... 4 players with different skill sets and strengths... Reading the numbers won't tell the story.... That's all I'm saying..

You can untie your panties now.

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