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All-Purpose Trade Rumors and Speculation Thread Part 4

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Old
02-20-2012, 12:41 PM
  #226
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Originally Posted by Franchise13 View Post
As for American Skaters who are better than Pavs, taking entire body of work into account in no particular order:

Tier 1
Parise
Suter
Ryan
Kane

Tier 2
Pavs
Kesler
EJ
Yandle

(Not a complete list. I don't see the others enough to comment.)
I'd agree with this list - adding Callahan in the tier 2 group

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02-20-2012, 12:47 PM
  #227
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Originally Posted by Franchise13 View Post
Ryan's had 3-30 goal seasons and is on his way to a 4th, how has he not been productive? I love Pavs, but Ryan has played better at this point. Ryan also has the raw size, skill and speed that Pavelski doesn't, so who knows if he gets better? I know goalscorers tend to peak early but one, Ryan is not at that age. Two, I'm not so sure I consider Ryan to be a pure goalscorer only.

Edit: Playoffs? Ryan has 8 Goals, 11pts in 17 games. It's not like he completely disappears there either.

Eric Johnson is very dominant defensively even now. Last time I saw him in person I was very impressed by his play, not sure if it was because it was live or just that particular game. Mentioned something to a colleague who's watched him play plenty, and he agreed that if EJ ever put his offensive game consistently he'd be a perennial Norris candidate.

As for American Skaters who are better than Pavs, taking entire body of work into account in no particular order:

Tier 1
Parise
Suter
Ryan
Kane

Tier 2
Pavs
Kesler
EJ

(Not a complete list. I don't see the others enough to comment.)
Pavelski belongs in Tier 1 along with Ryan, and above him.

Ryan:
07-08: .43PPG, .22GPG
08-09: .89PPG, .48GPG
09-10: .79PPG, .43GPG
10-11: .87PPG, .41GPG
11-12: .61PPG, .36GPG

Pavelski:
07-08: .49PPG, .23GPG
08-09: .74PPG, .31GPG
09-10: .76PPG, .37GPG
10-11: .89PPG, .27GPG
11-12: .79PPG, .39GPG

Pavelski is trending up dramatically, Ryan is trending down and inconsistent. They are both great players, and I would love to have Bobby Ryan on the Sharks, but they are definitely at the same level (and again, Pavelski is vastly superior defensively) and I see Pavelski as clearly the guy I would want on my team between the two.

I don't value unrealized talent.

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Old
02-20-2012, 12:47 PM
  #228
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Originally Posted by hockeyball View Post

edit: Forgot to include the link http://www.leftwinglock.com/line-com...gametype=ALL#A[/URL]
That's a confusing chart b/c the sum of frequencies doesn't equal 100%., it equals about 59.5%

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Old
02-20-2012, 12:49 PM
  #229
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Originally Posted by Naki View Post
Jack Johnson may not be great at hockey but I hear hes not too bad at guitar.
Eric Johnson is a lousy hockey player; but he's a great guitar player



Pavelski is no doubt a top 10 American but you can't say he's deffinatly top 5, but there's almost no one in the league that I think could come in and do his role better

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Old
02-20-2012, 12:51 PM
  #230
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 88eight View Post
Eric Johnson is a lousy hockey player; but he's a great guitar player



Pavelski is no doubt a top 10 American but you can't say he's deffinatly top 5, but there's almost no one in the league that I think could come in and do his role better
Especially at his value. The one guy I can think of that comes close is this kid name Couture... Aren't we lucky

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02-20-2012, 01:02 PM
  #231
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hockeyball View Post
Pavelski belongs in Tier 1 along with Ryan, and above him.

Ryan:
07-08: .43PPG, .22GPG
08-09: .89PPG, .48GPG
09-10: .79PPG, .43GPG
10-11: .87PPG, .41GPG
11-12: .61PPG, .36GPG

Pavelski:
07-08: .49PPG, .23GPG
08-09: .74PPG, .31GPG
09-10: .76PPG, .37GPG
10-11: .89PPG, .27GPG
11-12: .79PPG, .39GPG

Pavelski is trending up dramatically, Ryan is trending down and inconsistent. They are both great players, and I would love to have Bobby Ryan on the Sharks, but they are definitely at the same level (and again, Pavelski is vastly superior defensively) and I see Pavelski as clearly the guy I would want on my team between the two.

I don't value unrealized talent.
This is exactly why I don't think he's a slam dunk as a Top 5. People have different things they like in players. I weigh speed + size moreso than you probably do, as those are things you really can't teach. Raw (unrealized) talent and skill is also valued by some, especially in this case where it comes with actual production. Don't agree with Ryan being as bad defensively as you make it seem, Pavs is better, but Ryan is no slouch. As far as Ryan's "decline" ... it seems pretty much on line to me, if you account for the Ducks' horrendous start of the year.

For the record, I'd be against adding to Pavs to gain Nash. I think Nash is the better player, but Pavs is more valuable than Nash would be in SJ. Though I'd probably go to a few more Sharks games if we added someone like Nash at the deadline.

We both agree in the importance of Pavs on the Sharks. We agree that Ryan would be a great fit in SJ, just as Pavs is. They both bring unique skill sets SJ could really use. We'll just have to agree to disagree on who's better in a vacuum I think. Would love to see them on the same line... for you know, comparison's sake

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02-20-2012, 01:18 PM
  #232
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Franchise13 View Post
This is exactly why I don't think he's a slam dunk as a Top 5. People have different things they like in players. I weigh speed + size moreso than you probably do, as those are things you really can't teach. Raw (unrealized) talent and skill is also valued by some, especially in this case where it comes with actual production. Don't agree with Ryan being as bad defensively as you make it seem, Pavs is better, but Ryan is no slouch. As far as Ryan's "decline" ... it seems pretty much on line to me, if you account for the Ducks' horrendous start of the year.

For the record, I'd be against adding to Pavs to gain Nash. I think Nash is the better player, but Pavs is more valuable than Nash would be in SJ. Though I'd probably go to a few more Sharks games if we added someone like Nash at the deadline.

We both agree in the importance of Pavs on the Sharks. We agree that Ryan would be a great fit in SJ, just as Pavs is. They both bring unique skill sets SJ could really use. We'll just have to agree to disagree on who's better in a vacuum I think. Would love to see them on the same line... for you know, comparison's sake
I can see the argument between Ryan and Pavelski, though I think the offensive difference between the two is more than made up for by the amount of goals Pavelski stops in his own end, plus their contracts.

Nash on the other hand, I have not seen one person justify that argument. You can argue statistics all you like, but Pavelski pretty much beats Nash across the board in every major statistical category. It's tough to argue Nash's offense is of more value than Pavelski's defense when Pavelski is beating him offensively too for two seasons in a row. I think it all comes down to this totally fabricated myth that Nash would put up more points here for some absurd reason. He wouldn't, just like Heatley didn't, just like Gaborik didn't, like Kovy didn't, etc.

Seriously, find a time that actually proved to be true and didn't include an injury prior to the move. If you find one, I think that alone should prove to you how rare it is. You have to make trades based on available evidence, and available evidence says Pav's is better than Nash, in EVERY way.

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Old
02-20-2012, 01:22 PM
  #233
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Originally Posted by Les Wynan View Post
Because points are what matter when evaluating a player.

Pavelski spent 40% of his even-strength shifts with Torrey Mitchell last season, who most of you are convinced is the worst player ever, 30% with Clowe, 23% with Wellwood and less than 20% with anyone else on the Sharks. Not exactly superstars.

And he did that while starting 56% of his shifts in his own zone (a greater percentage than any Shark other than Scott Nichol) and playing against other teams' best players more frequently than any Sharks forward outside of the top line.
no but when the arguement is that pavs would be spoken in the same breath as nash if he was on columbus and still producing it does matter with points.

who he was on a line with when the team scored and he got a point.

clowe - 5 goals, 7 assists, 12 points
thornton - 4 goals, 10 assists, 14 points
marleau - 8 goals, 13 assists, 21 points
couture - 2 goals, 2 assists, 4 points
mitchell - 4 goal, 6 assists, 10 points
wellwood - 2 goal, 3 assists, 5 points
heatley - 8 goals, 7 assists, 15 points
the rest - 6 goals, 9 assists, 15 points

5 points in 35 games with wellwood, and 10 points in 66 games with mitchell.

for the rest, pavs had 1 unassisted goal, 4 goals by seto, 2 goals by defensemen, 6 assists by seto, and 3 assists by mayers.

you keep pavs away from thornton, marleau, heatley and to a lesser extent clowe, and pavs is a 20-30 point player. put him with talent, well he's a 50-70 point player.

put nash with no talent and he's a 60 point player, put nash with talent at worst he's a 60 point player.

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Old
02-20-2012, 01:24 PM
  #234
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Originally Posted by Barrie22 View Post
you keep pavs away from thornton, marleau, heatley and to a lesser extent clowe, and pavs is a 20-30 point player. put him with talent, well he's a 50-70 point player.

put nash with no talent and he's a 60 point player, put nash with talent at worst he's a 60 point player.
Are you joking? I hope so, that is so absurd it's hard to even take it seriously.

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02-20-2012, 01:28 PM
  #235
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It just amazes me that are so many people who can't look beyond a player's point total or production when attempting to gauge their value.

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02-20-2012, 01:30 PM
  #236
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Originally Posted by hockeyball View Post
Are you joking? I hope so, that is so absurd it's hard to even take it seriously.
when he was out on a line with mitchell and wellwood he was on pace for 20-30 points over an entire season.

is it so hard to believe that basically 45+ points of pavs came when playing with talent?

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02-20-2012, 01:31 PM
  #237
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Originally Posted by hockeyball View Post
Especially at his value. The one guy I can think of that comes close is this kid name Couture... Aren't we lucky
Well I'd say there's this guy named Claude in Philly who's value is way higher and is signed at 3.75 till 2014..

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02-20-2012, 01:32 PM
  #238
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Originally Posted by Barrie22 View Post
when he was out on a line with mitchell and wellwood he was on pace for 20-30 points over an entire season.

is it so hard to believe that basically 45+ points of pavs came when playing with talent?
First off, you are comparing Nash's linemates to Mitchell and Wellwood? While Nash might not have great line mates, they are VASTLY superior to Mitchell (offensive black hole) and Wellwood (can barely find a team to give him a contract).

Second off, small sample size.

Third off, if you gave Pavelski Nash's linemates he would continue to produce just as he is now. Do you think Nash would be a 60p player with Mitchell and Wellwood? It's one thing to not be getting a lot of assistance from your line mates, its another thing to be actively having to prop them up.

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02-20-2012, 01:33 PM
  #239
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Well I'd say there's this guy named Claude in Philly who's value is way higher and is signed at 3.75 till 2014..
haha good point. Still

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Old
02-20-2012, 01:36 PM
  #240
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Nash screwed himself.. He took the money and its probably going to prevent him from ever playing on a good team

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Old
02-20-2012, 01:36 PM
  #241
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Originally Posted by Les Wynan View Post
It just amazes me that are so many people who can't look beyond a player's point total or production when attempting to gauge their value.
it isn't about value, i like pavs and his game. i am not even thinking that the sharks need nash.

its just plain teal colored homerism to think pavs would be the point producer he is now if he was playing in columbus with basically 0 talent around him. which is what 1 person said just a few posts back.

any one that thinks pavs would be putting up 60+ points on a line with umberger, prospal, and the likes are thinking with pavs homerism.

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02-20-2012, 01:41 PM
  #242
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Originally Posted by Barrie22 View Post
it isn't about value, i like pavs and his game. i am not even thinking that the sharks need nash.

its just plain teal colored homerism to think pavs would be the point producer he is now if he was playing in columbus with basically 0 talent around him. which is what 1 person said just a few posts back.

any one that thinks pavs would be putting up 60+ points on a line with umberger, prospal, and the likes are thinking with pavs homerism.
Again, why is that relevant?

Pavelski's value is in the fact that he's able to start the majority of his shifts in the defensive zone against the best players other teams have to offer and successfully, consistently drive the play forward and generate ridiculous amounts of possession in the other team's zone. Few players in the league possess his skillset (certainly not Nash). It's impossible to prove either way but I think he'd definitely still be able to do that playing on the Blue Jackets. Columbus isn't the atrocious team everyone makes them out to be; they have some solid players and some ECHL-caliber goaltenders. Whether or not his linemates on the Jackets would finish the scoring chances Pavelski would create for them is a matter of the bounces and a lot of other factors that aren't in Pavs' control.

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02-20-2012, 01:41 PM
  #243
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I think it's rather silly to be comparing Pavs and Nash. No way DW trades Pavs+ for Nash so it's moot.


The only way we land Nash is trading Havlat + for him during the offseason (after the Rags, Kings, Leafs all bow out). If Havlat has a decent playoffs, his value will be restored and there's no way Nash in a Blue Jacket next season.

That said, I don't want Nash for his crazy contract - it is proving to be an albatross.

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02-20-2012, 01:42 PM
  #244
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Originally Posted by Barrie22 View Post
it isn't about value, i like pavs and his game. i am not even thinking that the sharks need nash.

its just plain teal colored homerism to think pavs would be the point producer he is now if he was playing in columbus with basically 0 talent around him. which is what 1 person said just a few posts back.

any one that thinks pavs would be putting up 60+ points on a line with umberger, prospal, and the likes are thinking with pavs homerism.
You are just making stuff up though that is factually untrue.

Last season Nash played the vast majority of his time with Brassard and Voracek. Both dramatically superior players to Mitchell/Wellwood.

This season he's played mostly with Carter, Prospal, Brassard and Umberger. Again, I would take every one of those players over Mitchell and Wellwood.

So yes, absolutely.

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02-20-2012, 01:49 PM
  #245
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Originally Posted by hockeyball View Post
First off, you are comparing Nash's linemates to Mitchell and Wellwood? While Nash might not have great line mates, they are VASTLY superior to Mitchell (offensive black hole) and Wellwood (can barely find a team to give him a contract).

Second off, small sample size.

Third off, if you gave Pavelski Nash's linemates he would continue to produce just as he is now. Do you think Nash would be a 60p player with Mitchell and Wellwood? It's one thing to not be getting a lot of assistance from your line mates, its another thing to be actively having to prop them up.
and yet that guy who can barely find a team to give him a contract has put up 36 points in 59 games. which is a pace for 50 points. all the while playing 15 minutes a game.

yes i do think nash would be getting 60+ points with line mates like wellwood and mitchell considering like others have said nash can create his own offense out of nothing. nash doesn't actually need the talent around him to produce, but when he's been given talent around him (international tournaments) he has shown he can change his game to still be a productive player, and have his lines be successful.

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02-20-2012, 01:57 PM
  #246
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Last season Nash played the vast majority of his time with Brassard and Voracek. Both dramatically superior players to Mitchell/Wellwood.
Wellwood>Brassard, at least at this point.

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Old
02-20-2012, 02:00 PM
  #247
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As much as I hate him, and dont dare speak his name, Im gonna got out there and say DW should look to get Torres. Yes, I said Torres.

Hes cheap, he brings alot of grit (like Eager did, but without the implosion.) Sharks need someone like this. Torres is willing to lay a hit on somebody. Sharks just dont seem to have that really. IMO, Torres was one of reasons the Nucks beat the Sharks. He really wore out the Sharks in the finals

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02-20-2012, 02:00 PM
  #248
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One note on Nash's linemates - Voracek is ridiculously underrated and is a hell of a player. There's some very solid evidence that Voracek was the one carrying the mail when the two played together.

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02-20-2012, 02:02 PM
  #249
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"If it were the Rangers, the return would be something along the lines of top prospects Chris Kreider, J.T. Miller and Brandon Dubinsky. The Canucks would have to start with Cory Schneider and probably include the blossoming Cody Hodgson. The Bruins would likely have to part with at least Tuukka Rask and top defense prospect Dougie Hamilton. The Sharks are looking at losing the likes of Joe Pavelski and Jamie McGinn, along with defense prospect Justin Braun and other prospects. The Maple Leafs would almost certainly have to part with young defenseman Jake Gardiner and Nazem Kadri."

http://sports.yahoo.com/nhl/news;_yl...perstar-return

The Nash thing is unbelievable. We have to trade an Olympian, and other teams just give up prospects or a goalie. Somethin isn't right here.

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02-20-2012, 02:04 PM
  #250
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Ken Campbell is a knobhead. I'd put zero stock into anything his degenerate brain spews out.

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