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All-Purpose Trade Rumors and Speculation Thread Part 4

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Old
02-20-2012, 01:00 AM
  #176
WTFetus
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mafoofoo View Post
Pretty sure ZP wants to play with team USA teammates. So that'd be Pavelski who'd have to do the recruiting.
Boyle/Suter Marleau/Parise swap.

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02-20-2012, 01:04 AM
  #177
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Originally Posted by Gilligans Island View Post
And teammates at NoDak for a couple years. Hmm... Ugly contract. WOuld rather have Vermette or Umberger.
And the Under 18 team, WJC gold together ... College together. These two were around each other SO much. If he could be our Rob Niedermayer, it's worth the $4 mil hit.

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Originally Posted by Mafoofoo View Post
Pretty sure ZP wants to play with team USA teammates. So that'd be Pavelski who'd have to do the recruiting.
.
It still might be worth looking into. Pavs and Zach were together for 2 weeks (playing) and an eval camp. Stafford and Parise were around each other for years.

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Old
02-20-2012, 01:12 AM
  #178
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Old
02-20-2012, 02:10 AM
  #179
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Sorry guys, I know some of you might be totally sick of the idea of getting Nash, but...just to humor the idea:

Nash-Thornton-Clowe
Couture-Marleau-Havlat
McGinn-Handzus-Mitchell
Winchester-Moore-Ferriero/Desjardins

Boyle-Vlasic
Murray-Burns
Vandermeer-Braun

Niemi
Greiss

Just saying, it's possible to fit this team under the cap. Whether we want that ridiculous contract or not is another issue entirely. Just for fun.

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02-20-2012, 02:11 AM
  #180
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So you want to trade Pavelski for a worse player who's paid twice as much?

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02-20-2012, 02:48 AM
  #181
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Gotta agree with my bro Les here. Pavs for Nash is a terrible trade.

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Old
02-20-2012, 02:55 AM
  #182
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Les Wynan View Post
So you want to trade Pavelski for a worse player who's paid twice as much?
Rick Nash is better than Pavelski. Pavelski has had the privilege of playing behind Thornton and Marleau his entire career and isn't viewed as the focal offensive catalyst. In the few games where we've seen the defensive prioritization shift to Pavelski at times in the past two playoff years, he suffered. Consider that with the fact that Nash has been very limited by incompetent management/coaching for a good part of his career, and I think you'd see this guy impress a lot of people with what he could do in a much more confortable environment.

I still remember when Sergei Fedorov was traded to Washington from Columbus, he expressed publicly to the media how suffocated players were at Columbus.

Still, this is just throwing out there what type of team it is possible for us to have this season; I don't necessarily endorse it. Thus, the "humor" comment.

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02-20-2012, 03:10 AM
  #183
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Originally Posted by polmaniac932 View Post
Rick Nash is better than Pavelski.
He's not 3.8 mil in caphit and 4mil+ in salary better than Pavelski.

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Old
02-20-2012, 03:15 AM
  #184
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mafoofoo View Post
He's not 3.8 mil in caphit and 4mil+ in salary better than Pavelski.
No, he's not. And I agree. You can read all about it in my original post:

Quote:
Just saying, it's possible to fit this team under the cap. Whether we want that ridiculous contract or not is another issue entirely. Just for fun.
You kids are great.

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02-20-2012, 03:19 AM
  #185
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Pavs for Nash, noooo thank you.

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Old
02-20-2012, 08:45 AM
  #186
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we should be talking Thornton for someone.....I hate Thornton's game. He makes me blow a gasket every time I watch him play. Just too slow, too methodical. doesn't go hard....etc, etc.

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02-20-2012, 08:49 AM
  #187
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Thornton won't, and should never be traded.

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02-20-2012, 08:49 AM
  #188
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Originally Posted by Mhoogasian94123 View Post
Amen. I would love Clutterbuck on this team. As long as it doesn't clean out our prospects or cost us a guy from our top 6, I say we go for him. He is , in my opinion, a more talented Clowe. He's got the ability to hit people and talk **** while still getting us those dirty goals. He's a lot like Clowe. What's wrong with having two Clowes especially when he could put up even more than what Clowe can?
Clutter is the definition of hockey. Would love him on this team.

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02-20-2012, 08:51 AM
  #189
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mafoofoo View Post
He's not 3.8 mil in caphit and 4mil+ in salary better than Pavelski.
And I don't see Nash going 63% on faceoffs.

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02-20-2012, 08:55 AM
  #190
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Originally Posted by hawkytalk View Post
we should be talking Thornton for someone.....I hate Thornton's game. He makes me blow a gasket every time I watch him play. Just too slow, too methodical. doesn't go hard....etc, etc.
Yes. Let us trade our captain and points leader.

I would like to see Jumbo retire a Shark and hopefully with a SC.

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02-20-2012, 09:01 AM
  #191
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Pavelski is a better player in every way that matters. He's vastly superior defensively, at least equivalent offensively (looks like he will outscore Nash two years in a row), he's a center, #1 in face-offs in the league, a leader, and on a great contract.

Frankly Nash has nothing on Pavelski, he's just overhyped while Pavelski is underhyped. If Pavelski was playing in Columbus, he'd hold the same status Nash does I suspect.

Plus the old 'he will score more on a better team argument' is provably historically untrue. Elite players do not become more elite when playing with superior talent. They get reduced ice time, and there is only one puck to go around. It's a fun fantasy to consider, but you'd be betting against the odds if you made that trade.

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Old
02-20-2012, 09:13 AM
  #192
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Originally Posted by hockeyball View Post
Frankly Nash has nothing on Pavelski, he's just overhyped while Pavelski is underhyped. If Pavelski was playing in Columbus, he'd hold the same status Nash does I suspect.
Living in Columbus and with Pavs being my favorite player, I should probably chime in here.

Nash is a better offensive player than Pavs. AINEC.

If their salaries were the same, I'd do it in a heartbeat and anyone with eyes would do it. But at what the salaries are....no chance, no how. Pavs is better defensively and in the faceoff circle, obviously.

If Pavelski was in Columbus, nobody would know who the hell he is. He may not even be an Olympian.

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Old
02-20-2012, 09:17 AM
  #193
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hockeyball View Post
Pavelski is a better player in every way that matters. He's vastly superior defensively, at least equivalent offensively (looks like he will outscore Nash two years in a row), he's a center, #1 in face-offs in the league, a leader, and on a great contract.

Frankly Nash has nothing on Pavelski, he's just overhyped while Pavelski is underhyped. If Pavelski was playing in Columbus, he'd hold the same status Nash does I suspect.

Plus the old 'he will score more on a better team argument' is provably historically untrue. Elite players do not become more elite when playing with superior talent. They get reduced ice time, and there is only one puck to go around. It's a fun fantasy to consider, but you'd be betting against the odds if you made that trade.
looooooooool pavs can't dominate the games like nash can, give pavelski no line mates, or no good players and he would suffer like crazy.

if you think nash, if he came to san jose would be playing less then 19 minutes a game, and not on the 1st unit of power play then you are crazy.

nash would still get the cozy minutes he is getting in columbus, 19+ minutes (he would just take pavs ice time on thorntons wings). which are identical to nash's ice time in columbus.

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Old
02-20-2012, 09:35 AM
  #194
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Originally Posted by do0glas View Post
Wingels will be in our playoff lineup. Kid has all the tools...hoping he takes mitchells place toward the end of the season.
I concur

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Old
02-20-2012, 09:40 AM
  #195
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Originally Posted by Barrie22 View Post
looooooooool pavs can't dominate the games like nash can, give pavelski no line mates, or no good players and he would suffer like crazy.

if you think nash, if he came to san jose would be playing less then 19 minutes a game, and not on the 1st unit of power play then you are crazy.

nash would still get the cozy minutes he is getting in columbus, 19+ minutes (he would just take pavs ice time on thorntons wings). which are identical to nash's ice time in columbus.
Pavelski's linemates for most of last season weren't all that great and he still managed to put up 66 points, he can play with anyone and still produce.

The question about trading Nash doesn't stop at who's better, Nash or Pavelski. If it was a Pavs for Nash straight up, an argument can be made about who's better.

But the asking price for Nash, though it's overpayment, would be Pavelski, Braun, likely Greiss and a pick. People can say 'Columbus will never get that type of return' all they want, but that's the asking price. This has been more or less confirmed considering the asking price from Philadelphia was JVR, Schenn or Couturier and Bob.

Is that package, and then likely having to move Clowe or Boyle in the off season to make the salaries / cap work, worth it?

Columbus does not have to move Nash before the trade deadline, they'll wait until they can get as close to that package as they can.

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02-20-2012, 09:46 AM
  #196
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Nash is not what this team needs.

*do not want*

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02-20-2012, 09:52 AM
  #197
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Originally Posted by Jonny2134 View Post
Nash is not what this team needs.

*do not want*
Only because of what Doug will give to get him.

Nash added without taking anything out would be amazing.

Giving up Pavs Vlasic and Stalock though. **** that.

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02-20-2012, 10:30 AM
  #198
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Originally Posted by SpinTheBlackCircle View Post
Living in Columbus and with Pavs being my favorite player, I should probably chime in here.

Nash is a better offensive player than Pavs. AINEC.

If their salaries were the same, I'd do it in a heartbeat and anyone with eyes would do it. But at what the salaries are....no chance, no how. Pavs is better defensively and in the faceoff circle, obviously.

If Pavelski was in Columbus, nobody would know who the hell he is. He may not even be an Olympian.
One of the few caterogies in hockey you actually can look at statistics to get a solid answer of talent is offensive production. While Nash may be more 'talented' than Pavelski (offensively) he isn't more productive. Likely because of his effort level compared to Pavelski, but that is not only relevant, it's critical. Over the last two seasons Pavelski has been the superior offensive player (not by a large margin, but still). You can justify that however you like, but Pavelski is putting up better numbers than Nash is on a consistent basis. I don't see any justifiable argument that Nash is going to be more productive offensively than Pavelski on this team. Pavelski produces at the same rate no matter who his line-mates are, a rate that is higher than Nash's now and career. Outside of one season, Pavelski's last two seasons have been superior to any in Nash's career.

Pavelski over the last two seasons: .85PPG
Nash over the last two seasons: .79ppg
Pavelski goals per game last two seasons: .32GPG
Nash goals per game last two seasons:.38GPG
Pavelski Career: .71PPG
Nash career: .81PPG

Pretty damn close, Pavelski was a slower starter but is recently surpassing Nash who has remained absolutely consistent his entire career (declined slightly). Nash is a superior goals corer, SLIGHTLY (8 goals over two seasons).

On top of that Pavelski is a big game player, so Nash doesn't even have that on him.

If Pavelski were in Columbus, he'd be getting the same kind of 'underated #1 center' discussions Koivu gets in Minnesota.

Talent is worthless if not utilized, and Nash certainly is guilty of that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Barrie22 View Post
looooooooool pavs can't dominate the games like nash can, give pavelski no line mates, or no good players and he would suffer like crazy.

if you think nash, if he came to san jose would be playing less then 19 minutes a game, and not on the 1st unit of power play then you are crazy.

nash would still get the cozy minutes he is getting in columbus, 19+ minutes (he would just take pavs ice time on thorntons wings). which are identical to nash's ice time in columbus.
Tell that to Detroit and Colorado in the playoffs. Even if Nash got the exact same ice time and matchups he did in Columbus, he's still going to likely produce at an equal or lower rate since he now has to share the puck with 2 other superior players in Marleau/Thornton/Pavelski. Again, historically players on weak teams do not move to superior teams and increase production, it is an extreme rarity for that to happen and should not be counted on.

Quote:
Originally Posted by stalockrox View Post
Pavelski's linemates for most of last season weren't all that great and he still managed to put up 66 points, he can play with anyone and still produce.

The question about trading Nash doesn't stop at who's better, Nash or Pavelski. If it was a Pavs for Nash straight up, an argument can be made about who's better.

But the asking price for Nash, though it's overpayment, would be Pavelski, Braun, likely Greiss and a pick. People can say 'Columbus will never get that type of return' all they want, but that's the asking price. This has been more or less confirmed considering the asking price from Philadelphia was JVR, Schenn or Couturier and Bob.

Is that package, and then likely having to move Clowe or Boyle in the off season to make the salaries / cap work, worth it?

Columbus does not have to move Nash before the trade deadline, they'll wait until they can get as close to that package as they can.
Exactly.

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Old
02-20-2012, 10:32 AM
  #199
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Thornton won't, and should never be traded.
this.

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02-20-2012, 10:39 AM
  #200
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Originally Posted by SpinTheBlackCircle View Post
Living in Columbus and with Pavs being my favorite player, I should probably chime in here.

Nash is a better offensive player than Pavs. AINEC.

If their salaries were the same, I'd do it in a heartbeat and anyone with eyes would do it. But at what the salaries are....no chance, no how. Pavs is better defensively and in the faceoff circle, obviously.

If Pavelski was in Columbus, nobody would know who the hell he is. He may not even be an Olympian.
Who cares who's a "better offensive player"? The goal of hockey is to outscore the opposition and Pavelski laps the field against Nash in that category.

I'm guessing that by "anyone with eyes" you mean "anyone who judges a player based on what their NHL.com page tells them."

Idiots on online message boards might not know who Pavelski is if he played for the Jackets but USA Hockey isn't run by morons. Pavelski would be an Olympian if he played for the Florida Panthers. He's a top-5 American player in the NHL.

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