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Old
11-01-2004, 01:27 AM
  #1
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r.i.p nhlpa

Give me a break!!!!! There's no way in hell the players will win this time around. The NHLPA knows damn well that if the season is cancelled next season the NHL will use replacement players and I guarantee that a majority of players will cross over. And if the NHLPA thinks for a second that the fans won't get behind their team they are sadly mistaken!!! Because it's the logo in front of the jersey that counts not the name on the back. If you cheer let say for the Flyers you cheer for the Flyers it doesn't matter who is playing for them. The NHLPA is playing a dangerous game of poker but what they don't know is that the owners have a royal flush.....R.I.P NHLPA


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11-01-2004, 10:37 AM
  #2
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So you're saying...

you're going to be out there paying $100+ for tickets, $6-7 for beers, 44 games per year, plus playoffs, and the sponsors will come out and pay top dollar for a product a notch above the AHL? If it comes to scabs, the NHLPA will win because the arenas will be empty, sponsorship will not be at full strength, and everybody would eventually see that Bettman's plan is a disaster and the owners would be dying for real players to fill-up their arenas.

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11-01-2004, 11:30 AM
  #3
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That's just it the owners will lower the ticket price because their expenses will be less. Don't get me wrong it will be a bumpy ride for the first couple seasons. But don't forget that there is a lot of exciting players coming up : Ovechkin, Crosby, Phaneuf, Malkin ect.... You see it's all good the league will get younger and in the long run better a lot better...

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11-01-2004, 11:56 AM
  #4
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I would

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fletch
you're going to be out there paying $100+ for tickets, $6-7 for beers, 44 games per year, plus playoffs, and the sponsors will come out and pay top dollar for a product a notch above the AHL? If it comes to scabs, the NHLPA will win because the arenas will be empty, sponsorship will not be at full strength, and everybody would eventually see that Bettman's plan is a disaster and the owners would be dying for real players to fill-up their arenas.
It's never been about the player(s).

It's always about going to see the Rangers play (insert team here) and I could care less who played with who.

But I can't speak for everyone else. I just know that we have all been pining for this team to rebuild, in any true rebuild, there's a period of 2-3 years where the team is a band of no name players. If we are pining for that, and the majority of posters here are on board with the rebuild, then why would it be a problem for the league to go through a period of adjustment and let the stars of tomorrow work their way into the new fabric of the NHL.

Do you think that Sidney Crosby isn't going to play here in 2 years becasuse there's a cap? Or even god forbid, there's no union (which wouldn't be a bad thing with today's vast employee labor laws)? How about the group of players that we have in our system? We talk about allowing players to play, here's where we can put our money where our mouths are and again as the title states. I would.

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11-01-2004, 12:31 PM
  #5
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Originally Posted by OTTSENS
That's just it the owners will lower the ticket price because their expenses will be less. Don't get me wrong it will be a bumpy ride for the first couple seasons.
First of all, what is it that makes you say that the owners will lower ticket prices? If I am watching AHL caliber hockey, then I better be paying AHL caliber ticket prices. You have a better chance of seeing peace in the Middle East, before you see the owners MATERIALLY lower ticket prices. And, by the way, since as a Rangers fan I will now be seeing a team that cannot spend a dime more than either Nashvill or Ottawa, then my ticket prices had better be the same as those teams.
Second of all, your "bumpy ride" of two years will be more than enough to kill off a league that many argue is dead already. 2 years of seeing a product on the ice that will be materially worse than anything yet seen and 2 years of scab hockey, will result in 2 years of having about 100 people at games. Teams will not survive.
We are big hockey fans. But we ARE the minority. Most of the world is not.
Speaking of scab labor, I am glad that Ottawa's laws permit such a thing. What happens to Vancouver? Do they just fold or do they have to move from Vancouver to another province that allows replacement players?

" just know that we have all been pining for this team to rebuild, in any true rebuild, there's a period of 2-3 years where the team is a band of no name players. "

Pining for a rebuild is not the same as pining for replacement players. YOU would pay and see it. The majority of the world would not.

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11-01-2004, 12:38 PM
  #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by True Blue
First of all, what is it that makes you say that the owners will lower ticket prices? If I am watching AHL caliber hockey, then I better be paying AHL caliber ticket prices. You have a better chance of seeing peace in the Middle East, before you see the owners MATERIALLY lower ticket prices.
http://www.sabres.com/tickets/

The Buffalo Sabres have drastically reduced season ticket prices in the 100 & 200 levels for the upcoming 2004-05 season. This substantial rollback, of 12% to 28%, is the largest one-time reduction in the organization’s 35-year history making the Buffalo Sabres' average ticket price the lowest in the NHL this season.

Significantly reduced season ticket prices compared to 2003-2004...
100 Level Preferred - save $480
100 Level II - save $400
100 Level III - save $440
100 Level IV - save $320
200 Club Level - save $360
and no price increases for the 300 Level
more...

Heres the more:

The Buffalo Sabres' average season ticket price for the 2004-05 season is about $35, the lowest in the NHL. Furthermore, with over 10,000 seats below $30, fans can enjoy Sabres hockey at prices that are at or below levels of when the team moved into HSBC Arena in 1996. Also, over 1,300 seats are $17 or less on a season basis!

The Sabres are offering a season ticket in the lower bowl for just $21, by far the lowest priced lower bowl ticket of any NHL team. Furthermore, the Sabres are one of only four NHL teams (Anaheim, Florida, and Nashville) who have a season ticket as low as $10.

Paying for season tickets has never been easier. Each seat will be held with just a $50 deposit (lowest in the NHL). Season Ticket holders will not be asked for any additional payments until after a new collective bargaining agreement with the players has been reached. Fans can also choose a plan of three installments over the summer, or pay in full. Either plan you choose is refundable with 2% interest in the event of a work stoppage.

To make the game even more affordable for all fans, variable pricing has been implemented for Mini-Pack plans and individual game tickets. Each game is designated Gold, Silver, Bronze or Value, with the classification being based on the opponent, time of the year, day of the week, rivalries, and games against all-star players.

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11-01-2004, 12:41 PM
  #7
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really?

Quote:
Originally Posted by True Blue
First of all, what is it that makes you say that the owners will lower ticket prices? If I am watching AHL caliber hockey, then I better be paying AHL caliber ticket prices. You have a better chance of seeing peace in the Middle East, before you see the owners MATERIALLY lower ticket prices. And, by the way, since as a Rangers fan I will now be seeing a team that cannot spend a dime more than either Nashvill or Ottawa, then my ticket prices had better be the same as those teams.
Second of all, your "bumpy ride" of two years will be more than enough to kill off a league that many argue is dead already. 2 years of seeing a product on the ice that will be materially worse than anything yet seen and 2 years of scab hockey, will result in 2 years of having about 100 people at games. Teams will not survive.
We are big hockey fans. But we ARE the minority. Most of the world is not.
Speaking of scab labor, I am glad that Ottawa's laws permit such a thing. What happens to Vancouver? Do they just fold or do they have to move from Vancouver to another province that allows replacement players?

" just know that we have all been pining for this team to rebuild, in any true rebuild, there's a period of 2-3 years where the team is a band of no name players. "

Pining for a rebuild is not the same as pining for replacement players. YOU would pay and see it. The majority of the world would not.

The why do the Rangers still sell 80% of their tickets while being the laughingstock of the NHL? When you combine the record they have had over the last 7 years, they have got to be in the top 3 of worst overall records, I highly doubt that folks would stop coming, if that were the case they would have stopped 2-3 years ago.

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11-01-2004, 12:45 PM
  #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Digable5
The Buffalo Sabres have drastically reduced season ticket prices in the 100 & 200 levels for the upcoming 2004-05 season. This substantial rollback, of 12% to 28%, is the largest one-time reduction in the organization’s 35-year history making the Buffalo Sabres' average ticket price the lowest in the NHL this season.
Hurray for the Sabres. The fact is the majority of the teams in the league are not run that way and have raised prices as opposed to lowering them. I admit that I could be wrong when I said that no team in the league would. But the fact remains that the great majority would not.

"The why do the Rangers still sell 80% of their tickets while being the laughingstock of the NHL? When you combine the record they have had over the last 7 years, they have got to be in the top 3 of worst overall records, I highly doubt that folks would stop coming, if that were the case they would have stopped 2-3 years ago."

You are still not talking about watching scab labor. That is an entirely different animal. The Rangers WILL sell their tickets for fans to see Rangers play. However, said fans are not paying NHL prices to see scab labor. That is if they are paying anything at all to see it.

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11-01-2004, 12:54 PM
  #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pld459666
The why do the Rangers still sell 80% of their tickets while being the laughingstock of the NHL? When you combine the record they have had over the last 7 years, they have got to be in the top 3 of worst overall records, I highly doubt that folks would stop coming, if that were the case they would have stopped 2-3 years ago.
Even a team of no-names is still an NHL product. People just don't care about hockey that much in most markets. You won't find enough people that are going to pay top dollar to see two glorified AHL teams play. They'll be a few diehards, but most people will fade away. In Canada, they'll pay a fraction of the price to watch minor league games or Junior games. In good hockey markets, they'll watch minor league games and college hockey. In most American markets, they'll just forget about hockey altogether.

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11-01-2004, 01:02 PM
  #10
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NY is a union driven city no doubt

Quote:
Originally Posted by True Blue
Hurray for the Sabres. The fact is the majority of the teams in the league are not run that way and have raised prices as opposed to lowering them. I admit that I could be wrong when I said that no team in the league would. But the fact remains that the great majority would not.

"The why do the Rangers still sell 80% of their tickets while being the laughingstock of the NHL? When you combine the record they have had over the last 7 years, they have got to be in the top 3 of worst overall records, I highly doubt that folks would stop coming, if that were the case they would have stopped 2-3 years ago."

You are still not talking about watching scab labor. That is an entirely different animal. The Rangers WILL sell their tickets for fans to see Rangers play. However, said fans are not paying NHL prices to see scab labor. That is if they are paying anything at all to see it.
And you're probably right about that. But I would plop down NHL money to see guys looking to feed their families and giving an honest effort nightly.

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11-01-2004, 01:02 PM
  #11
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Pld...

I do somewhat agree, although scabs are scabs. The fans know the names, be it Jagr, Holik, or what-have-you. Are these same fans, these Rangers fans, going to come out and see Toms and others in place of these guys, or are they going to stay home? The NHL ticket is an expensive ticket and I think people stay home and arenas remain cold.

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11-01-2004, 01:08 PM
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it's not entirely certain that they'd be able to use replacement players...i'm not completely sure on the labor laws but i think if the NHLPA could argue that the league did not negotiate with good faith, then the league could be legally prevented from going to a replacement player scheme, etc etc. i'm sure someone knows more about this than me and could really shore up that argument, but it's one i've seen kicked around before

and saying "take it or leave it" doesn't sound like good faith negotiating to me

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11-01-2004, 01:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Levitate
it's not entirely certain that they'd be able to use replacement players...i'm not completely sure on the labor laws but i think if the NHLPA could argue that the league did not negotiate with good faith, then the league could be legally prevented from going to a replacement player scheme, etc etc. i'm sure someone knows more about this than me and could really shore up that argument, but it's one i've seen kicked around before

and saying "take it or leave it" doesn't sound like good faith negotiating to me
I am fairly certain that that is EXACTLY what will happen. It does not seem like Bettman put very much foresight into his master plan. He either figured that the union would quickly fold OR that he would have no problem in getting an impasse. I do not think that he thought of what would happen if his impasse was not allowed, as I do not think it will be. The Atlanta owners' words will come back to bite Bettman in his arse, as it can and will be used as evidence that Bettman is not bargaining in good faith. There are lots of other examples though. Not bargaining in good faith is just one of the things that will prevent his impasse. Nevermind the fact that Canadian Labor laws are entirely different. What is he going to do with the provinces that spefically do not allow replacement labor for union employees?

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11-01-2004, 01:54 PM
  #14
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Hey True Blue
I don't know why you're such against replacement players my man. And you're telling me next season if the Rangers make it to the Stanley Cup final MSG won't be packed?? Even with replacement players..


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11-01-2004, 02:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by True Blue
I am fairly certain that that is EXACTLY what will happen. It does not seem like Bettman put very much foresight into his master plan. He either figured that the union would quickly fold OR that he would have no problem in getting an impasse. I do not think that he thought of what would happen if his impasse was not allowed, as I do not think it will be. The Atlanta owners' words will come back to bite Bettman in his arse, as it can and will be used as evidence that Bettman is not bargaining in good faith. There are lots of other examples though. Not bargaining in good faith is just one of the things that will prevent his impasse. Nevermind the fact that Canadian Labor laws are entirely different. What is he going to do with the provinces that spefically do not allow replacement labor for union employees?
I have a feeling the NHLPA is going to have to agree to a salary cap eventually. At the same time I feel the league has to get realistic and move from 31 mill. The cap should be 40-55 mill if not higher. There are other little things they can do to make this number even higher without raising it. Why can't they use that rule that the NFL uses where you can name your best player your "franchise player" and he does not count against your cap. This should keep the very highly paid players from being effected by the cap at all. I'm not 100% sure if that is the way the NFL does it and if i'm wrong please correct me.

Either way i'm getting sick of this thing. I mean I dont see how you resolve a labor dispute without talking and meetings. I said the same thing all summer. In my honest opinion I think the NHLPA should fire Goodenow and the NHL should fire Buttman and start anew. Neither side trusts one another and that starts right at the top. Chop both heads and watch this thing get done.
:mad: :mad: :mad:

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11-01-2004, 02:10 PM
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Quote:
I have a feeling the NHLPA is going to have to agree to a salary cap eventually. At the same time I feel the league has to get realistic and move from 31 mill. The cap should be 40-55 mill if not higher. There are other little things they can do to make this number even higher without raising it. Why can't they use that rule that the NFL uses where you can name your best player your "franchise player" and he does not count against your cap. This should keep the very highly paid players from being effected by the cap at all. I'm not 100% sure if that is the way the NFL does it and if i'm wrong please correct me.
yeah at the very least they could start things off around there...if the players outright refuse a cap around 40-55 mill, then i'll be more annoyed at them...but it doesn't look like the league has any intention of budging from the $31 mill mark which just isn't feasible in the end, and IMO doesn't solve the money problems that the NHL does have.

but you gotta start with some give and take in negotiating and there hasn't been much on either side...i just see that the players have been a little more willing to compromise than the owners, just my opinion


Quote:
Either way i'm getting sick of this thing. I mean I dont see how you resolve a labor dispute without talking and meetings. I said the same thing all summer. In my honest opinion I think the NHLPA should fire Goodenow and the NHL should fire Buttman and start anew. Neither side trusts one another and that starts right at the top. Chop both heads and watch this thing get done.
i really agree with that...both sides are sitting and posturing now and it's costing normal people their jobs (all the layoffs by the NHL office, teams are laying off employees) this goes beyond just millionares and billionares arguing and it even hurts local businesses who took in money from the pre and post game rushes...lots of people are getting hurt cuz of this and neither side of it cares. not even to mention the fans who always get screwed

goodenow and bettman do both deserved to be gotten rid of, though i'd start with bettman since he screwed this league to begin with

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11-01-2004, 02:15 PM
  #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OTTSENS
Hey True Blue
I don't know why you're such against replacement players my man. And you're telling me next season if the Rangers make it to the Stanley Cup final MSG won't be packed?? Even with replacement players..
Without pontificating about winning the Cup, that is exactly what I am telling you. Not only for the Rangers, but for the rest of the league. No one is going to pay NHL prices to see scab labor.
And please do not lump me in with pro or con as far as replacement players go. I am simply saying what is going to happen league-wide, IMO. And you still have not answered my question. What is going to happenin Vancouver and other provinces that specifically do not allow replacement labor for union employees?

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11-01-2004, 02:18 PM
  #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by True Blue
Hurray for the Sabres. The fact is the majority of the teams in the league are not run that way and have raised prices as opposed to lowering them. I admit that I could be wrong when I said that no team in the league would. But the fact remains that the great majority would not.

"The why do the Rangers still sell 80% of their tickets while being the laughingstock of the NHL? When you combine the record they have had over the last 7 years, they have got to be in the top 3 of worst overall records, I highly doubt that folks would stop coming, if that were the case they would have stopped 2-3 years ago."

You are still not talking about watching scab labor. That is an entirely different animal. The Rangers WILL sell their tickets for fans to see Rangers play. However, said fans are not paying NHL prices to see scab labor. That is if they are paying anything at all to see it.

True Blue,

Besides the Sabres lowering prices. The Stars (don't know the %), Pens (around 15%), and the Caps (around 13%) also lowered ticket prices for the upcoming season. I know the Pens and Caps lowered their prices prior to the lockout.

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11-01-2004, 02:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by True Blue
Without pontificating about winning the Cup, that is exactly what I am telling you. Not only for the Rangers, but for the rest of the league. No one is going to pay NHL prices to see scab labor.
And please do not lump me in with pro or con as far as replacement players go. I am simply saying what is going to happen league-wide, IMO. And you still have not answered my question. What is going to happenin Vancouver and other provinces that specifically do not allow replacement labor for union employees?
Vancouver and other provinces that have labor laws. If the NHL decides to go with replacement players I would think some kind of voting referendum could be done to allow the people to vote on the issue of changing that law in this one case. I don't live in Canada so will confess don't know their laws. Now, the outcome of the vote if turned down would be a problem. But because there is a good amount of money involved for the local businesses there might be some concessions made to allow them to field a team.

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11-01-2004, 02:24 PM
  #20
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I'm sure the nhl would be willing to accept the "franchise player" clause but the second the NHLPA ears the word cap they're gone they don't want to negociate a cap. The NHLPA is negociating in bad faith they know darn well that the league is in trouble but instead they prefer to go play in Europe go figure

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11-01-2004, 02:31 PM
  #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by True Blue
Without pontificating about winning the Cup, that is exactly what I am telling you. Not only for the Rangers, but for the rest of the league. No one is going to pay NHL prices to see scab labor.
And please do not lump me in with pro or con as far as replacement players go. I am simply saying what is going to happen league-wide, IMO. And you still have not answered my question. What is going to happenin Vancouver and other provinces that specifically do not allow replacement labor for union employees?
Canadian labor law doesn't recognize the NHLPA as a union so Vancouver will be able to use replacement players.

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11-01-2004, 02:35 PM
  #22
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Negotiating in bad faith?

First, I don't think you can trust the losses the league purports to be losing. Unfortunately I have not seen a team-by-team account, but have read in different places that the Rangers, Chicago and St. Louis are nearly $90 million of the $224 million in losses. Further, there is fuzzy accounting in arriving at the revenue totals and a team such as the Rangers benefits in other ways not accounted for on the Rangers' income statement that we don't see, and I'm sure they're not the only ones. Back to the original statement. A healthy league is supposedly not one in which the Rangers, Chicago and St. Louis make tons of money. A healthy league is one in which Edmonton can sign a UFA or two, and can retain a greater portion of its RFAs while at the same time operating at a profit. The NHLPA put forth a framework that does help this out with revenue sharing, rollback in salaries, and a luxury tax system. It doesn't wipe-out entirely the losses, and who really cares if the Rangers and some other fat cats can't operate a business, but it shaves them a good deal, and more to the point, it's obviously negotiable. I don't think that's negotiating in bad faith.

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11-01-2004, 02:36 PM
  #23
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Didn't Dumbass also say he was going to cut

prices 10% across the board if they didn't make the PO's??

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11-01-2004, 02:47 PM
  #24
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Yeah a luxury tax system that start at $50 millions...make it $35 millions and no guaranted contracts and we got a deal.

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11-01-2004, 03:01 PM
  #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OTTSENS
Canadian labor law doesn't recognize the NHLPA as a union so Vancouver will be able to use replacement players.
A union is a union is a union. You do not get to pick and choose what you recognize or not recognize. When baseball was about to use replacement players, Toronto was going to have to play it's home games in a different province. So, if baseball's union is recognized, seems to me so too is the NHLPA.

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