HFBoards

Go Back   HFBoards > General Hockey Discussion > The History of Hockey
Mobile Hockey's Future Become a Sponsor Site Rules Support Forum vBookie Page 2
The History of Hockey Relive great moments in hockey history and discuss how the game has changed over time.

HOH Top 60 Defensemen - Round 1 Voting Results

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old
02-18-2012, 10:43 AM
  #1
overpass
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts: 3,601
vCash: 500
HOH Top 60 Defensemen - Round 1 Voting Results

HOH Top 60 Defensemen - Round 1 Voting Results

Rank Player # of Lists Voting Points Average Ranking
1 Bobby Orr 23 1839 1.0
2 Doug Harvey 23 1806 2.5
3 Ray Bourque 23 1790 3.2
4 Eddie Shore 23 1775 3.8
5 Nicklas Lidstrom 23 1745 5.1
6 Denis Potvin 23 1729 5.8
7 Red Kelly 23 1695 7.3
8 Larry Robinson 23 1667 8.5
9 Slava Fetisov 23 1652 9.2
10 Chris Chelios 23 1622 10.5
11 Brad Park 23 1601 11.4
12 Pierre Pilote 23 1549 13.7
13 Paul Coffey 23 1546 13.8
14 Al MacInnis 23 1503 15.7
15 King Clancy 23 1494 16.0
16 Tim Horton 23 1465 17.3
17 Earl Seibert 23 1439 18.4
18 Scott Stevens 23 1437 18.5
19 Sprague Cleghorn 23 1407 19.8
20 Brian Leetch 23 1320 23.6
21 Chris Pronger 23 1319 23.7
22 Bill Gadsby 23 1314 23.9
23 Borje Salming 23 1303 24.3
24 Dit Clapper 22 1286 22.5
25 Serge Savard 23 1242 27.0
26 Valeri Vasiliev 23 1231 27.5
27 Mark Howe 23 1216 28.1
28 Scott Niedermayer 23 1144 31.3
29 Rod Langway 23 1115 32.5
30 Bill Quackenbush 23 1098 33.3
31 Guy Lapointe 22 1087 31.6
32 Jack Stewart 23 1053 35.2
33 Jacques Laperriere 23 1020 36.7
34 Marcel Pronovost 23 959 39.3
35 Lionel Conacher 22 947 38.0
36 Butch Bouchard 23 931 40.5
37 J.C. Tremblay 23 928 40.7
38 Eddie Gerard 21 912 37.6
39 Larry Murphy 23 908 41.5
40 Rob Blake 22 838 42.9
41 Zdeno Chara 22 836 43.0
42 Ebbie Goodfellow 22 761 46.4
43 Carl Brewer 22 746 47.1
44 Alexei Kasatonov 22 730 47.8
45 Ching Johnson 23 718 49.8
46 Moose Johnson 18 702 42.0
47 Jan Suchy 22 663 50.9
48 George Boucher 20 658 48.1
49 Tom Johnson 21 657 49.7
50 Hod Stuart 22 651 51.4
51 Babe Siebert 19 639 47.4
52 Harry Cameron 20 636 49.2
53 Sylvio Mantha 23 626 53.8
54 Ken Reardon 17 618 44.6
55 Doug Wilson 23 615 54.3
56 Alexander Ragulin 20 602 50.9
57 Fern Flaman 21 529 55.8
58 Harry Howell 22 522 57.3
59 Lester Patrick 20 510 55.5
60 Allan Stanley 22 493 58.6
61 Sergei Zubov 21 483 58.0
62 Art Coulter 21 458 59.2
63 Harvey Pulford 17 396 57.7
64 Vladimir Konstantinov 17 341 60.9
65 Pat Stapleton 20 336 64.2
66 Frantisek Pospisil 14 320 58.1
67 Mike Grant 12 310 55.2
68 Bill White 18 284 65.2
69 Babe Pratt 15 282 62.2
70 Phil Housley 12 246 60.5
71 Hap Day 13 240 62.5
72 Vladimir Lutchenko 11 230 60.1
73 Brad McCrimmon 15 198 67.8
74 Jimmy Thomson 16 196 68.8
75 Eric Desjardins 14 194 67.1
76 Herb Gardiner 12 173 66.6
77 Art Ross 13 169 68.0
78 Cy Wentworth 14 148 70.4
79 Sergei Gonchar 11 143 68.0
80 Red Horner 9 141 65.3
81 Lennart Svedberg 7 125 63.1
82 Reg Noble 3 116 42.3
83 Gus Mortson 12 106 72.2
85 Adam Foote 9 105 69.3
84 Cyclone Taylor 2 105 28.5
86 Lionel Hitchman 9 104 69.4
87 Moose Vasko 7 103 66.3
88 Gary Suter 11 100 71.9
89 Randy Carlyle 4 90 58.5
90 Doug Mohns 7 89 68.3
91 Derian Hatcher 9 85 71.6
92 Duncan Keith 5 74 66.2
93 Nikolai Sologubov 5 71 66.8
94 Leo Boivin 8 67 72.6
95 Si Griffis 7 59 72.6
96 Viktor Kuzkin 3 54 63.0
97 Neil Colville 3 50 64.3
98 Joe Simpson 7 48 74.1
99 Flash Hollett 6 48 73.0
100 Jean-Guy Talbot 6 47 73.2
101 Jack Crawford 5 47 71.6
102 Ted Green 3 43 66.7
103 Vitaly Davydov 3 42 67.0
104 Brian Rafalski 3 41 67.3
105 Dan Boyle 2 38 62.0
106 Frank Patrick 3 37 68.7
107 Joe Hall 4 32 73.0
108 Red Dutton 3 31 70.7
109 Alexander Gusev 1 30 51.0
110 Jiri Bubla 2 26 68.0
111 Billy Burch 1 22 59.0
113 Lars-Erik Sjoberg 3 20 74.3
121 Bert Corbeau 2 20 71.0
112 Didier Pitre 1 20 61.0
114 Tom Anderson 1 20 61.0
115 Bob Goldham 4 18 76.5
116 Bob Baun 5 17 77.6
117 Ott Heller 3 17 75.3
118 Kevin Hatcher 1 16 65.0
119 Leo Reise 1 15 66.0
120 Jack Marshall 1 14 67.0
122 Glen Harmon 1 13 68.0
124 Craig Hartsburg 1 12 69.0
123 Paul Shmyr 1 12 69.0
126 Teppo Numminen 4 11 78.3
125 Jim Schoenfeld 1 11 70.0
127 Kevin Lowe 1 10 71.0
128 Reijo Ruotsalainen 1 10 71.0
129 Wally Stanowski 2 9 76.5
130 Keith Magnusson 1 8 73.0
132 Kimmo Timonen 1 8 73.0
131 Stefan Persson 1 8 73.0
133 Shea Weber 1 7 74.0
134 Anders Eldebrink 1 6 75.0
135 Carol Vadnais 1 6 75.0
137 Dickie Boon 1 6 75.0
136 Kenny Jonsson 1 6 75.0
138 Craig Ludwig 1 5 76.0
139 Mattias Ohlund 1 4 77.0
140 Jim Neilson 2 3 79.5
143 Mike Green 1 1 80.0
141 Sandis Ozolinsh 1 1 80.0
142 Ulf Samuelsson 1 1 80.0

This list is the result from Round 1 of voting to generate a list of players for Round 2. It is not the final result.

Definitions
# of Lists: The number of top 80 lists (out of 23 total lists) on which the player was listed.
Voting Points: The number of voting points the player received. 80 points for 1st, 79 points for 2nd, and so on down to 1 point for 80th.
Average Ranking: The average placement of a player on the lists on which he appeared only. For example, Kevin Lowe was ranked on one list only, at spot #71. His average ranking is 71.


Last edited by overpass: 02-18-2012 at 11:13 AM.
overpass is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-18-2012, 10:53 AM
  #2
unknown33
Registered User
 
unknown33's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Europe
Country: Marshall Islands
Posts: 3,396
vCash: 500
Matthias Ohlund and Mike Green?

unknown33 is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
02-18-2012, 11:07 AM
  #3
Dennis Bonvie
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Connecticut
Country: United States
Posts: 8,242
vCash: 500
Paul Shmyr?

Or was there really a Paul Shymr?

Dennis Bonvie is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-18-2012, 11:10 AM
  #4
Dennis Bonvie
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Connecticut
Country: United States
Posts: 8,242
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by unknown33 View Post
Matthias Ohlund and Mike Green?
Two-time first team all-star shouldn't be too much of a stretch.

Granted, he's no Paul Shymr....

Dennis Bonvie is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-18-2012, 11:10 AM
  #5
dao256
Registered User
 
dao256's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Canada
Country: Canada
Posts: 500
vCash: 500
Who on earth didnt put Bobby as #1?????


Last edited by dao256: 02-18-2012 at 11:10 AM. Reason: spelling
dao256 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-18-2012, 11:24 AM
  #6
TheDevilMadeMe
Global Moderator
 
TheDevilMadeMe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Brooklyn
Country: United States
Posts: 40,703
vCash: 500
Adding a column to show how far a player rose or fell in Round 2

HOH Top 60 Defensemen - Round 1 Voting Results

Rank Player # of Lists Voting Points Average RankingChange
1 Bobby Orr 23 1839 1.00
2 Doug Harvey 23 1806 2.50
3 Ray Bourque 23 1790 3.20
4 Eddie Shore 23 1775 3.80
5 Nicklas Lidstrom 23 1745 5.10
6 Denis Potvin 23 1729 5.80
7 Red Kelly 23 1695 7.30
8 Larry Robinson 23 1667 8.5-1
9 Slava Fetisov 23 1652 9.2+1
10 Chris Chelios 23 1622 10.50
11 Brad Park 23 1601 11.40
12 Pierre Pilote 23 1549 13.7-2
13 Paul Coffey 23 1546 13.80
14 Al MacInnis 23 1503 15.7-4
15 King Clancy 23 1494 16.0+3
16 Tim Horton 23 1465 17.3-1
17 Earl Seibert 23 1439 18.4+1
18 Scott Stevens 23 1437 18.5-1
19 Sprague Cleghorn 23 1407 19.8+4
20 Brian Leetch 23 1320 23.6-3
21 Chris Pronger 23 1319 23.7+1
22 Bill Gadsby 23 1314 23.9+1
23 Borje Salming 23 1303 24.3+1
24 Dit Clapper 22 1286 22.50
25 Serge Savard 23 1242 27.0-3
26 Valeri Vasiliev 23 1231 27.5+1
27 Mark Howe 23 1216 28.1+1*
28 Scott Niedermayer 23 1144 31.3-5
29 Rod Langway 23 1115 32.50
30 Bill Quackenbush 23 1098 33.3+4*
31 Guy Lapointe 22 1087 31.6-1
32 Jack Stewart 23 1053 35.2+1
33 Jacques Laperriere 23 1020 36.7-5
34 Marcel Pronovost 23 959 39.30
35 Lionel Conacher 22 947 38.00
36 Butch Bouchard 23 931 40.5-9
37 J.C. Tremblay 23 928 40.7-3
38 Eddie Gerard 21 912 37.6+8
39 Larry Murphy 23 908 41.5-11
40 Rob Blake 22 838 42.9-4
41 Zdeno Chara 22 836 43.0-1
42 Ebbie Goodfellow 22 761 46.4-1
43 Carl Brewer 22 746 47.1-3
44 Alexei Kasatonov 22 730 47.8+5
45 Ching Johnson 23 718 49.8+9
46 Moose Johnson 18 702 42.0+5
47 Jan Suchy 22 663 50.9-2
48 George Boucher 20 658 48.10
49 Tom Johnson 21 657 49.7-3
50 Hod Stuart 22 651 51.4+15
51 Babe Siebert 19 639 47.4+4
52 Harry Cameron 20 636 49.2-5
53 Sylvio Mantha 23 626 53.8-3
54 Ken Reardon 17 618 44.6+3
55 Doug Wilson 23 615 54.30
56 Alexander Ragulin 20 602 50.9 
57 Fern Flaman 21 529 55.8 
58 Harry Howell 22 522 57.3 
59 Lester Patrick 20 510 55.5+6
60 Allan Stanley 22 493 58.6+1
61 Sergei Zubov 21 483 58.0 
62 Art Coulter 21 458 59.2+8
63 Harvey Pulford 17 396 57.7+3
64 Vladimir Konstantinov 17 341 60.9 
65 Pat Stapleton 20 336 64.2 
66 Frantisek Pospisil 14 320 58.1+8
67 Mike Grant 12 310 55.2 
68 Bill White 18 284 65.2 
69 Babe Pratt 15 282 62.2 
70 Phil Housley 12 246 60.5 
71 Hap Day 13 240 62.5 
72 Vladimir Lutchenko 11 230 60.1 
73 Brad McCrimmon 15 198 67.8 
74 Jimmy Thomson 16 196 68.8 
75 Eric Desjardins 14 194 67.1 
76 Herb Gardiner 12 173 66.6 
77 Art Ross 13 169 68.0 
78 Cy Wentworth 14 148 70.4 
79 Sergei Gonchar 11 143 68.0 
80 Red Horner 9 141 65.3 
81 Lennart Svedberg 7 125 63.1 
82 Reg Noble 3 116 42.3 
83 Gus Mortson 12 106 72.2 
85 Adam Foote 9 105 69.3 
84 Cyclone Taylor 2 105 28.5 
86 Lionel Hitchman 9 104 69.4 
87 Moose Vasko 7 103 66.3 
88 Gary Suter 11 100 71.9 
89 Randy Carlyle 4 90 58.5 
90 Doug Mohns 7 89 68.3 
91 Derian Hatcher 9 85 71.6 
92 Duncan Keith 5 74 66.2 
93 Nikolai Sologubov 5 71 66.8 
94 Leo Boivin 8 67 72.6 
95 Si Griffis 7 59 72.6 
96 Viktor Kuzkin 3 54 63.0 
97 Neil Colville 3 50 64.3 
98 Joe Simpson 7 48 74.1 
99 Flash Hollett 6 48 73.0 
100 Jean-Guy Talbot 6 47 73.2 
101 Jack Crawford 5 47 71.6 
102 Ted Green 3 43 66.7 
103 Vitaly Davydov 3 42 67.0 
104 Brian Rafalski 3 41 67.3 
105 Dan Boyle 2 38 62.0 
106 Frank Patrick 3 37 68.7 
107 Joe Hall 4 32 73.0 
108 Red Dutton 3 31 70.7 
109 Alexander Gusev 1 30 51.0 
110 Jiri Bubla 2 26 68.0 
111 Billy Burch 1 22 59.0 
113 Lars-Erik Sjoberg 3 20 74.3 
121 Bert Corbeau 2 20 71.0 
112 Didier Pitre 1 20 61.0 
114 Tom Anderson 1 20 61.0 
115 Bob Goldham 4 18 76.5 
116 Bob Baun 5 17 77.6 
117 Ott Heller 3 17 75.3 
118 Kevin Hatcher 1 16 65.0 
119 Leo Reise 1 15 66.0 
120 Jack Marshall 1 14 67.0 
122 Glen Harmon 1 13 68.0 
124 Craig Hartsburg 1 12 69.0 
123 Paul Shymr 1 12 69.0 
126 Teppo Numminen 4 11 78.3 
125 Jim Schoenfeld 1 11 70.0 
127 Kevin Lowe 1 10 71.0 
128 Reijo Ruotsalainen 1 10 71.0 
129 Wally Stanowski 2 9 76.5 
130 Keith Magnusson 1 8 73.0 
132 Kimmo Timonen 1 8 73.0 
131 Stefan Persson 1 8 73.0 
133 Shea Weber 1 7 74.0 
134 Anders Eldebrink 1 6 75.0 
135 Carol Vadnais 1 6 75.0 
137 Dickie Boon 1 6 75.0 
136 Kenny Jonsson 1 6 75.0 
138 Craig Ludwig 1 5 76.0 
139 Mattias Ohlund 1 4 77.0 
140 Jim Neilson 2 3 79.5 
143 Mike Green 1 1 80.0 
141 Sandis Ozolinsh 1 1 80.0 
142 Ulf Samuelsson 1 1 80.0 


Last edited by TheDevilMadeMe: 02-18-2012 at 07:03 PM. Reason: Quack is +4 (tied) not +5 (tied)
TheDevilMadeMe is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
02-18-2012, 11:30 AM
  #7
TheDevilMadeMe
Global Moderator
 
TheDevilMadeMe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Brooklyn
Country: United States
Posts: 40,703
vCash: 500
I should add that if anyone wants a copy of the aggregate list in excel format, please send an email to hohtopplayers at yahoo dot com (posting the address that way because we got inundated with spam after posting it the real way just once on this board). You aren't going to get any information that isn't eventually going to be posted here, but if you want it, it's out there.


Last edited by TheDevilMadeMe: 02-18-2012 at 11:58 AM.
TheDevilMadeMe is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
02-18-2012, 12:23 PM
  #8
Hockey Outsider
Registered User
 
Hockey Outsider's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Country: Canada
Posts: 3,387
vCash: 500
The players who rose by five or more spots during Round 2 were primarily players who from the earliest era of North American hockey (Stuart, Gerard, M. Johnson, Patrick) and European players (Pospisil, Kasatonov). Four of those blueliners never played a single game in the NHL, and Patrick played in just two contests. Perhaps an initial lack of familiarity with these relatively obscure players could explain why they were given more appropriate recognition during Round 2.

Two other player who jumped by five or more spots during Round 2 were C. Johnson and Coulter, both of whom peaked during the 1930s. Again, a lack of familiarity with these ancient players may have contributed to their low rank during Round 1.

Quackenbush was the last player to soar five or more positions - he's the only post-WWII NHL player to rise by at least five spots.

====

Five players fell by five or more spots. It's safe to assume that all of us have seen Murphy and Niedermayer play; they're familiar names to us and that could explain their relatively high ranks during Round 1. Murphy was criticized for never having a dominant peak, and Niedermayer was criticized for having a far shorter peak than most people realize. Although those are both valid criticisms, there's also the possibility of us being too familiar with those players, and perhaps exaggerating their weaknesses. I can explain Niedermayer's weaknesses with far more subtlety and precision than I can for, say, Reardon. Then again, that works both ways, as the same is true for their strengths.

Two great Hab defenseman, Laperriere and Bouchard, fell significantly, as did Cameron. Not sure if there is a specific reason for this.


Last edited by Hockey Outsider: 02-18-2012 at 01:13 PM.
Hockey Outsider is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-18-2012, 12:29 PM
  #9
plusandminus
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Posts: 980
vCash: 500
This may be either ignored or considered a bad idea, but I try to post it anyway... If it's a bad suggestion, I suppose it would come as a surprise considering it's me making it.

Would it be possible to just post a table, similar to the one posted here, with columns showing each voter's votes added?

Voters: 1=TheDevilMadeMe, 2=Overpass, 3=Seventieslord and so on...
Or even better: TDDM, Over, Seve and so on...

Rank Player# of Lists Voting Points Average Ranking TDMMOverSeve...
1 Bobby Orr23 1839 1.0 111...
2 Doug Harvey 2318062.5???...

The same then being done for each round, with non-voting participants columns either excluded or empty.

Then one would be able to instantly see how each voter has voted, and also instantly being able to compare his votes to the other voters or the overall (etc.). Sortable columns would be great.

Perhaps there are already Excel sheets looking like above. If so, it might be even easier to post it here.

So far, I haven't seen any consideration being done in regard to the non-voting/participating followers of the project, so maybe it needs a participator to suggest things like this.

plusandminus is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-18-2012, 12:33 PM
  #10
BillyShoe1721
Terriers
 
BillyShoe1721's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Philadelphia, PA
Country: United States
Posts: 16,738
vCash: 50
Send a message via AIM to BillyShoe1721
Overall, I think it's a solid list. The guys that deserve to fall like Murphy, Laperriere, and Bouchard whereas guys like Hod Stuart and Ching Johnson deservedly moved up when they were examined closer.

BillyShoe1721 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-18-2012, 12:43 PM
  #11
TheDevilMadeMe
Global Moderator
 
TheDevilMadeMe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Brooklyn
Country: United States
Posts: 40,703
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hockey Outsider View Post
Two great Hab defenseman, Laperriere and Bouchard, fell significantly, as did Cameron. Not sure if there is a specific reason for this.
Bouchard falling is easy to explain - I don't think a lot of round 1 voters realized just how short his prime was, nor how weak the competition of the era was during his prime.

Laperriere is harder to explain. I would imagine some voters were surprised he wasn't as important to the Canadiens' playoff success in the 1960s as they may have thought. I think it's more likely that he just got caught up in a numbers game - he's a relatively "boring" candidate who got leapfrogged by Eddie Gerard and Hod Stuart, then Pronovost and Conacher (both of whom are more "exciting") maintained their positions while Lapperiere fell behind them. I would be interested in comments from voters who voted Lapperriere higher in round 1 than in round 2.

As for Cameron, I think he got hurt by unfavorable comparisons to Georges Boucher, then got caught in a bit of a numbers game himself when other worthy early era players like Lester Patrick came in.

TheDevilMadeMe is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
02-18-2012, 12:46 PM
  #12
TheDevilMadeMe
Global Moderator
 
TheDevilMadeMe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Brooklyn
Country: United States
Posts: 40,703
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by plusandminus View Post
This may be either ignored or considered a bad idea, but I try to post it anyway... If it's a bad suggestion, I suppose it would come as a surprise considering it's me making it.

Would it be possible to just post a table, similar to the one posted here, with columns showing each voter's votes added?

Voters: 1=TheDevilMadeMe, 2=Overpass, 3=Seventieslord and so on...
Or even better: TDDM, Over, Seve and so on...

Rank Player# of Lists Voting Points Average Ranking TDMMOverSeve...
1 Bobby Orr23 1839 1.0 111...
2 Doug Harvey 2318062.5???...

The same then being done for each round, with non-voting participants columns either excluded or empty.

Then one would be able to instantly see how each voter has voted, and also instantly being able to compare his votes to the other voters or the overall (etc.). Sortable columns would be great.

Perhaps there are already Excel sheets looking like above. If so, it might be even easier to post it here.

So far, I haven't seen any consideration being done in regard to the non-voting/participating followers of the project, so maybe it needs a participator to suggest things like this.
I'll talk to overpass, but I believe the next step is to release every voter's complete record one at a time. After we do that, making a graph like this might be worth considering. (Or maybe you can help us out and do it, once we release all the source data).

TheDevilMadeMe is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
02-18-2012, 01:27 PM
  #13
overpass
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts: 3,601
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by plusandminus View Post
This may be either ignored or considered a bad idea, but I try to post it anyway... If it's a bad suggestion, I suppose it would come as a surprise considering it's me making it.

Would it be possible to just post a table, similar to the one posted here, with columns showing each voter's votes added?

Voters: 1=TheDevilMadeMe, 2=Overpass, 3=Seventieslord and so on...
Or even better: TDDM, Over, Seve and so on...

Rank Player# of Lists Voting Points Average Ranking TDMMOverSeve...
1 Bobby Orr23 1839 1.0 111...
2 Doug Harvey 2318062.5???...

The same then being done for each round, with non-voting participants columns either excluded or empty.

Then one would be able to instantly see how each voter has voted, and also instantly being able to compare his votes to the other voters or the overall (etc.). Sortable columns would be great.

Perhaps there are already Excel sheets looking like above. If so, it might be even easier to post it here.

So far, I haven't seen any consideration being done in regard to the non-voting/participating followers of the project, so maybe it needs a participator to suggest things like this.
Our plan was to post the individual lists separately.

Your suggestion is a good one for presentation and analysis. I just don't know if a 25 column table would fit very well in a thread.

overpass is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-18-2012, 01:30 PM
  #14
plusandminus
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Posts: 980
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
I'll talk to overpass, but I believe the next step is to release every voter's complete record one at a time. After we do that, making a graph like this might be worth considering. (Or maybe you can help us out and do it, once we release all the source data).
Thanks for replying to my post.

Yes, I likely would be prepared to help you out. But cutting and pasting posts/tables here, would likely take too much time and energy. I suppose it would be easier to do it using the Excel sheets. (I now have Excel. Got it relatively recently.)

If I had been running a project like this (and I don't mean I would do it better than, or as good as, you have done), I would probably have made Excel tables similar to the ones I suggested above. Have the players in one column, and then make a column for each voter. Insert votes. Then write a formula to summarize the votes (where rank is converted to a voting point, like "if rank is 1 to 10 then votepoint=11-rank else votepoint=0", or "if rank is 1 to 80 then votepoint=81-rank else votepoint=0"). I'm not good at Excel, and it really doesn't matter to me if the cells show place or point.
If Overpass was the one doing the summarizing, maybe what I asked for in the previous post has more or less already been done/prepared.

plusandminus is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-18-2012, 01:33 PM
  #15
plusandminus
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Posts: 980
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by overpass View Post
Our plan was to post the individual lists separately.

Your suggestion is a good one for presentation and analysis. I just don't know if a 25 column table would fit very well in a thread.
Thank you for replying.
You are welcome to try. I think it would fit, especially if you keep each column name/header short.

plusandminus is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-18-2012, 01:44 PM
  #16
plusandminus
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Posts: 980
vCash: 500
Testing if it might fit:

Rank PlayerLists Pts Avg 1234567891011121314151617181920212223
1Bobby Orr]2318391.0 111                    
2Doug Harvey2318062.5???                    
64Vladimir Konstantinov1734160.91010101010101010101010101010101010101010101010

Rank PlayerLists Pts Avg tdmovpsevdertarcanxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx13x14x15x16x17x18x19x20x21x22x23x
1Bobby Orr]2318391.0 111                    
2Doug Harvey2318062.5???                    
64Vladimir Konstantinov1734160.91010101010101010101010101010101010101010101010

Edit: From my viewpoint, both tables easily fit. If I decrease the size of the window, it adapts and still fits nicely. It might, however, look bad on a smartphone.

plusandminus is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-18-2012, 03:23 PM
  #17
Dom
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 648
vCash: 500
Why not present the result of your work on a google blog or the equivalent? It is worthy of being consulted by more than just the readers of the HOH section.

Dom is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-18-2012, 04:21 PM
  #18
Dennis Bonvie
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Connecticut
Country: United States
Posts: 8,242
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
Bouchard falling is easy to explain - I don't think a lot of round 1 voters realized just how short his prime was, nor how weak the competition of the era was during his prime.

Laperriere is harder to explain. I would imagine some voters were surprised he wasn't as important to the Canadiens' playoff success in the 1960s as they may have thought. I think it's more likely that he just got caught up in a numbers game - he's a relatively "boring" candidate who got leapfrogged by Eddie Gerard and Hod Stuart, then Pronovost and Conacher (both of whom are more "exciting") maintained their positions while Lapperiere fell behind them. I would be interested in comments from voters who voted Lapperriere higher in round 1 than in round 2.

As for Cameron, I think he got hurt by unfavorable comparisons to Georges Boucher, then got caught in a bit of a numbers game himself when other worthy early era players like Lester Patrick came in.
Maybe because I had him at 22 on my original list, he ended up higher than everyone else wanted him to be.

I stumped for him heavily during the second round but its hard to go against the big hitters like yourself, TDMM.

Dennis Bonvie is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-18-2012, 04:33 PM
  #19
TheDevilMadeMe
Global Moderator
 
TheDevilMadeMe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Brooklyn
Country: United States
Posts: 40,703
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dennis Bonvie View Post
Maybe because I had him at 22 on my original list, he ended up higher than everyone else wanted him to be.

I stumped for him heavily during the second round but its hard to go against the big hitters like yourself, TDMM.
I don't remember spending much time making a case against Laperriere? I said he was injured a couple of times in the playoffs and his team won without him.

TheDevilMadeMe is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
02-18-2012, 05:00 PM
  #20
Dennis Bonvie
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Connecticut
Country: United States
Posts: 8,242
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
I don't remember spending much time making a case against Laperriere? I said he was injured a couple of times in the playoffs and his team won without him.
You don't realize your own power.

Dennis Bonvie is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-18-2012, 06:53 PM
  #21
TheDevilMadeMe
Global Moderator
 
TheDevilMadeMe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Brooklyn
Country: United States
Posts: 40,703
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dennis Bonvie View Post
You don't realize your own power.
Meh, if I had that much power, Lionel Conacher would have dropped 10-15 spots

I was actually surprised to see Laperriere fall below Conacher, especially considering the gap between them in aggregate points after round 1. After Gerard shot up, I kind of expected the Laperriere, Pronovost, Conacher trio to slide down a spot each, but Pronovost and Conacher maintained their spots and Laperriere is the one who suffered.

Edit: remember that round 8 (where we added 36-40) was the round where 2 new candidates (Hod Stuart and Ching Johnson) finished 1-2. Laperriere was the highest ranked of the leftovers. Makes me wonder how high Hod and Ching would have finished if they had appeared earlier


Last edited by TheDevilMadeMe: 02-18-2012 at 07:00 PM.
TheDevilMadeMe is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
02-18-2012, 06:53 PM
  #22
reckoning
Registered User
 
reckoning's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Country: Canada
Posts: 5,373
vCash: 500
Paul Shmyr played in the WHA through all seven years that the league existed. Though he did play a few season before and after that in the NHL, those seven years were the prime years of his career, so it makes him tough to compare against NHL players.

But he was selected to the WHA's 1st All-Star Team three times, and was one of only three WHA players (along with Bobby Hull and Marc Tardif) to be invited to the Team Canada training camp for the inaugural Canada Cup.

He didn't make my top 80 list, but he's a perfectly reasonable choice.

reckoning is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-18-2012, 07:04 PM
  #23
TheDevilMadeMe
Global Moderator
 
TheDevilMadeMe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Brooklyn
Country: United States
Posts: 40,703
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hockey Outsider View Post
The players who rose by five or more spots during Round 2 were primarily players who from the earliest era of North American hockey (Stuart, Gerard, M. Johnson, Patrick) and European players (Pospisil, Kasatonov). Four of those blueliners never played a single game in the NHL, and Patrick played in just two contests. Perhaps an initial lack of familiarity with these relatively obscure players could explain why they were given more appropriate recognition during Round 2.

Two other player who jumped by five or more spots during Round 2 were C. Johnson and Coulter, both of whom peaked during the 1930s. Again, a lack of familiarity with these ancient players may have contributed to their low rank during Round 1.

Quackenbush was the last player to soar five or more positions - he's the only post-WWII NHL player to rise by at least five spots.

====

Five players fell by five or more spots. It's safe to assume that all of us have seen Murphy and Niedermayer play; they're familiar names to us and that could explain their relatively high ranks during Round 1. Murphy was criticized for never having a dominant peak, and Niedermayer was criticized for having a far shorter peak than most people realize. Although those are both valid criticisms, there's also the possibility of us being too familiar with those players, and perhaps exaggerating their weaknesses. I can explain Niedermayer's weaknesses with far more subtlety and precision than I can for, say, Reardon. Then again, that works both ways, as the same is true for their strengths.

Two great Hab defenseman, Laperriere and Bouchard, fell significantly, as did Cameron. Not sure if there is a specific reason for this.
Quack actually only went up 4 positions (30 to tied for 26). Or 3.5 if you like. My math was wrong

TheDevilMadeMe is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
02-18-2012, 07:08 PM
  #24
TheDevilMadeMe
Global Moderator
 
TheDevilMadeMe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Brooklyn
Country: United States
Posts: 40,703
vCash: 500
I believe these are the only players who were added in their first round of eligibility:

Sprague Cleghorn
Eddie Gerard
Hod Stuart
Ching Johnson
Art Coulter
Frantisek Pospisil

Hod Stuart and Ching Johnson are the only two players who finished ahead of all returning candidates, finishing 1-2 in round 8. This means they are the most likely candidates to have finished higher if they came up earlier.

Moose Johnson almost joined them in round 8 - missing the cut by only a few votes as a first time candidate

TheDevilMadeMe is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
02-18-2012, 07:21 PM
  #25
TheDevilMadeMe
Global Moderator
 
TheDevilMadeMe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Brooklyn
Country: United States
Posts: 40,703
vCash: 500
Players who didn't come up for vote who I most wish did:

Art Ross - is he really any worse than Lester Patrick? I don't know.

Lennart Svedberg - I would have liked to discuss his place among other Europeans. He's definitely below Suchy, but how does he compare to Pospisil, Ragulin, and Lutchenko?

Eric Desjardins - IMO, he was a better defenseman than Zubov or Housley, both of who we discussed. I don't think he peaked as high as Konstantinov, but he probably had a better career. I would have loved to see overpass's stats for him.

Herb Gardiner - I'm at fault as much as anyone for this - IIRC, he was a late cut from my list. I doubt he's top 60, but would have been worth discussing his unique career.

I also had Derian Hatcher fairly high (top 75 not top 60). Would have been interesting to compare his career to Zubov and possibly even Harvey Pulford. IMO, if it wasn't for Scott Stevens, Hatcher could have been the defining "dead puck" defenseman - meaning a guy who epitomizes the style of play in the era. Hatchet is pretty cut and dry though- if he wasn't on your list already, I doubt you add him.


Last edited by TheDevilMadeMe: 02-18-2012 at 07:55 PM.
TheDevilMadeMe is online now   Reply With Quote
Reply

Forum Jump


Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 04:41 PM.

monitoring_string = "e4251c93e2ba248d29da988d93bf5144"
Contact Us - HFBoards - Archive - Privacy Statement - Terms of Use - Advertise - Top - AdChoices

vBulletin Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
HFBoards.com is a property of CraveOnline Media, LLC, an Evolve Media, LLC company. 2014 All Rights Reserved.