It's good that Z is starting to find his game. In my Fantasy Hockey it would just raise his trade value, which we could use on Nash. In the real KH-world, he will stay until he skates in a wheelchair.
Sp proposing a trade of Zee for Nash is considered "hate"? Sorry. You give value to get value. I didn't hate Primeau and Coffey - a 3rd overall pick, and a recent Norris winner - but that was the price to get the missing piece. I don't hate Zee. He's been a clutch playoff performer. He plays all 3 zones. He still puts up 70+ points. I just think the window to move him and get incredible value in return (ie 27-year old 40 goal scoreres) is NOW. In a couple seasons his contract becomes UNTRADEABLE. He becomes a dependable 3rd line center that struggles to hit 50 points and struggles to stay healthy, but still on the books for another 8 more years. That's the problem. So if you can get Nash you do it. That's not hate. That's being real.
Prediction...before Nash's deal expires...Nash will score more goals in a season than Zee will have total points (ie Nash will score 50 in a year when Zee can't crack 50 points).
Oh, I think that ship has sailed. Nash ain't getting younger either.
Actually, Ian White is maybe 50% the player Rafalski was on the power play and you may have noticed a certain drop-off in that regard?
Aside from that Ian White is a decent-to-good D-man who in all other phases of the game is indeed no worse than Rafalski was in his last couple of seasons.
PP maybe not as slick. But a bit better defensively. Doesn't cough up the puck for really ugly giveaways nearly as often
Rafalski had four strong traits when he came here
Speed. Smarts. Passing. Good low shot that finds the net. But as that skating went...the other stuff was still good in certain situations (PP), but his overall effectiveness plummeted.
Surely that factored into his decision to retire despite having $6M owed to him if he played.
Yet, if you pointed out his obvious decline during a GDT or during a discussion about his effectiveness, the "fan police" shouted you down
PP maybe not as slick. But a bit better defensively. Doesn't cough up the puck for really ugly giveaways nearly as often
Rafalski had four strong traits when he came here
Speed. Smarts. Passing. Good low shot that finds the net. But as that skating went...the other stuff was still good in certain situations (PP), but his overall effectiveness plummeted.
Surely that factored into his decision to retire despite having $6M owed to him if he played.
Yet, if you pointed out his obvious decline during a GDT or during a discussion about his effectiveness, the "fan police" shouted you down
funny how you posted earlier in this thread about people over exaggerating and yet here you are doing the same thing
i don't recall these so called "Fan Police" constantly defending him. i think rafalski actually had more detractors than defenders in the last couple years that he played here
I do not think there really was much Zetterberg hate here, just a lot of wondering what was wrong with him. I have theorized that he has a very inconsistent back that does not let play play regularly at maximum performance.
I can see why people interpret all the trade Z / Hudler / Ericsson talk is interpreted as "hate," however. I thought the same of all the trade Hudler / anti-Hudler talk, but now I think some people are loyal team mate type folk who support the entire team and expect others to, too, while some are impersonal coach / manager types that want to tinker and optimize, nothing personal.
First, Zetterberg looked like crap.
Then, criticism of Z began building.
Then, Z publicly states that he knows he is playing like crap.
Then, he began to play at a higher level.
Finally, criticism of Z wanes.
There is no "hate". I think the fanboys get themselves into a tizzy over nothing.
Interesting idea. And now that' I've considered it, I think it's ridiculous.
When I think about how I like the players on this club compared to the 08, 01, 99 and 97 clubs, and for that matter, some teams from the early 90s and late 80s, when I became a fan of this team, I realize that player-by-player, this is one of my least favorite Wings' teams.
Man for man, this is close to the same team as 08, but since that time, I've really grown sour on Kronwall. On the other hand, I like Bertuzzi more than Samuelsson.
But player for player, I don't think this team is anywhere near as likeable as the teams I watched the late 80s and early 90s...
Oh well.
I wanted Ozzie ran out of here big time. I've wanted Schneider and Lang and Jason Williams and Dave Lewis ran out of here.
The Red Wings a pro sports team ...To me, they're a form of amusement and entertainment.
They're not my family. They're not my wife. They are nothing to take pride in. I don't feel "lucky" or "privileged" to be a Wings fan.
But I've been going to Wings games since the days of Dale McCourt and Vaclav Nedomansky.
I believe I'll be a fan long after every single player on today's roster has retired.
My advice to you is to open your own "How to be a Red Wings Fan" school.
I'll subscribe to your newsletter.
I like the 2008 team more than any of the 90's teams. But that's just me. Homegrown and Euro (or MSU) is what I like.
Loyality is really important. Some fans here are spoiled with success and forget what is the foundation of a good team. Personally, I find it mind boggling that some people act like this team is a peace of **** and choose to critisize Z, Ericsson, Hudler, when the team is playing great.
And now the talk about trade Z for Nash. Really? Z has much bigger value for Red Wings organization than Nash. It's probably cool for some people to act like some kind of a badass cold-hearted buisnessman and say smth. like "Loyality is overrated, trade Z for Nash. Rick is better, that's all that matters". But players are people not computers or smth. You can't just say oh this player is 100% better than this old one, so let's bring him in instead. Zetterberg is pretty much a homegrown talent, heart and soul Detroit player.
But if you are tired with succesful franchise competing for the SC every year, then yes, Holland should trade core players for some unproven outsiders and Detroit might finally challenge for a 1st overall draft pick.
I wonder why the "fan police" refuse to consider that maybe some of us want to see this team do better than lose in round 2?
So far, I don't see where our improvement has been... right now, it's just regular season stuff.
Go back to before the 01-02 cup.. Holland got Hasek, Hull and Robitaille.
Go back to the 08 cup, Holland let Lang, Whitney and Schneider go and traded Williams. He picked up Stuart and Rafalski.
It doesn't make you less of fan because you believe change can help your team.
Does that mean I want Zetterberg traded? Hell no.
But you guys are responding to that sort of nonsense with your own nonsense... this BS about loyalty and how we should be happy to have all these guys.
I think they are better this year than they were the last 2 seasons and even if the personnel hasn't changed much, the players' roles certainly have. Compared to last year, at least, the defensive pairings are completely different and better than the top 2 pairings last year. Lidstrom-White has been significantly better than Lidstrom-Stuart and Kronwall-Stuart is better than Kronwall-Salei. Homer is just a 4th liner now, Bertuzzi is playing a much better two-way game and is frequently matched up against the other teams best players, Flip has made a near permanent shift to the wing and Hudler has significantly more responsibility as a common fixture in the top 6. I also think our 20- somethings (Flip, Hudler, Helm, Abdelkader, Miller, Ericsson) all have shown signs of improvement in one way or another and the decline of over 30 players has been minimal. Teams can improve from one year to the next without making flashy moves; and the deadline still hasn't passed yet. The White addition, by itself, completely changed our top 4 from what it was last year and made our overall pairings much better than a year ago. It gave Lidstrom a better partner on the top pairing and dropped Stuart down to a role he is more suited to play.
I just don't think the Sharks or Hawks are all that great. They both go through bad slumps and have pretty shaky goaltending. I'm not saying sweep, but victory will be assured.
The White addition, by itself, completely changed our top 4 from what it was last year and made our overall pairings much better than a year ago. It gave Lidstrom a better partner on the top pairing and dropped Stuart down to a role he is more suited to play.
Funny thing.
Rafalski = stronger power-play and liability at even strength.
White = mediocre power-play, but a lot stronger at even strength.
I wonder why the "fan police" refuse to consider that maybe some of us want to see this team do better than lose in round 2?
So far, I don't see where our improvement has been... right now, it's just regular season stuff.
Go back to before the 01-02 cup.. Holland got Hasek, Hull and Robitaille.
Go back to the 08 cup, Holland let Lang, Whitney and Schneider go and traded Williams. He picked up Stuart and Rafalski.
It doesn't make you less of fan because you believe change can help your team.
Does that mean I want Zetterberg traded? Hell no.
But you guys are responding to that sort of nonsense with your own nonsense... this BS about loyalty and how we should be happy to have all these guys.
This is sports, you can't win all the time. No team in NHL is as succesful as Detroit.
Surely, you shouldn't be obligated to feel happy about every single player on the team. Surely, any team that's planning to win Stanley Cup should aquire some players on the market before playoffs.
But, here, we are talking about trading a guy who has been a face of franchise, great playoff performer, and a great teammate for a pig in a poke. Where's a guarantee that Nash or whoever else will make DRW better than DRW with Z? Where's the guarantee, he doesn't become our Bryzgalov, Richards, Redden, Gomez, Kaberle?
Loyalty is bs? I hope that's not your real-life philosophy. I for example enjoy the fact that we have a franchise with recognizable face, I enjoy how Red Wings are treating those who are loyal to them. That's how they built this team.
Am I 100% satisfied with how the team is right now? No, would like some physical players added to the lineup. But not at the cost of a core player.
I do not think there really was much Zetterberg hate here, just a lot of wondering what was wrong with him. I have theorized that he has a very inconsistent back that does not let play play regularly at maximum performance.
I am glad Z is playing and / or feeling better.
agree
he has looked more and more normal recently.
Quote:
I can see why people interpret all the trade Z / Hudler / Ericsson talk is interpreted as "hate," however. I thought the same of all the trade Hudler / anti-Hudler talk, but now I think some people are loyal team mate type folk who support the entire team and expect others to, too, while some are impersonal coach / manager types that want to tinker and optimize, nothing personal.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Garl
Loyality is really important. Some fans here are spoiled with success and forget what is the foundation of a good team. Personally, I find it mind boggling that some people act like this team is a peace of **** and choose to critisize Z, Ericsson, Hudler, when the team is playing great.
And now the talk about trade Z for Nash. Really? Z has much bigger value for Red Wings organization than Nash. It's probably cool for some people to act like some kind of a badass cold-hearted buisnessman and say smth. like "Loyality is overrated, trade Z for Nash. Rick is better, that's all that matters". But players are people not computers or smth. You can't just say oh this player is 100% better than this old one, so let's bring him in instead. Zetterberg is pretty much a homegrown talent, heart and soul Detroit player.
But if you are tired with succesful franchise competing for the SC every year, then yes, Holland should trade core players for some unproven outsiders and Detroit might finally challenge for a 1st overall draft pick.
seems to me most of that is just buttman.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Henkka
Funny thing.
Rafalski = stronger power-play and liability at even strength.
White = mediocre power-play, but a lot stronger at even strength.
I'd take the later one.
i think it is excessive to say rafalski was a liability. his speed and ability to transition to offense is important for D.
lidstrom has been scored on much less now that he has been playing with a faster puckmover again. defensive play by F's is also important, but i think lidstrom is definitely more effective with someone like rafalski or white than stuart.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Roy S
I think they are better this year than they were the last 2 seasons and even if the personnel hasn't changed much, the players' roles certainly have. Compared to last year, at least, the defensive pairings are completely different and better than the top 2 pairings last year. Lidstrom-White has been significantly better than Lidstrom-Stuart and Kronwall-Stuart is better than Kronwall-Salei. Homer is just a 4th liner now, Bertuzzi is playing a much better two-way game and is frequently matched up against the other teams best players, Flip has made a near permanent shift to the wing and Hudler has significantly more responsibility as a common fixture in the top 6. I also think our 20- somethings (Flip, Hudler, Helm, Abdelkader, Miller, Ericsson) all have shown signs of improvement in one way or another and the decline of over 30 players has been minimal. Teams can improve from one year to the next without making flashy moves; and the deadline still hasn't passed yet. The White addition, by itself, completely changed our top 4 from what it was last year and made our overall pairings much better than a year ago. It gave Lidstrom a better partner on the top pairing and dropped Stuart down to a role he is more suited to play.
agree
helm and zetterberg are not as good offensively as last season, but hudler, filppula and miller are better, and zetterberg seems to be returning to normal.
I haven't been hating on Z and not gotten on the hate train, but I'll say this much. He's not living up to his contract at all, not even close at this point. He needs to produce 07-08 numbers for it to be worth it.
Could someone kindly define what "hating" refers to? Because proposing we trade a 31 year old, chronically injured player with 4 years of declining production, and 10 more years to go...for a bigger, stronger, faster, younger 40-goal scorer has nothing to do with hate. Sheesh. I want this team to win the Cup. I think Zee for Nash increases our chances. Some disagree. What's wrong with that? Am I allowed to suggest Datsyuk for Malkin, Neal, Letang, and Staal or will somone accuse me of hating Datsyuk? Grow up.
I haven't been hating on Z and not gotten on the hate train, but I'll say this much. He's not living up to his contract at all, not even close at this point. He needs to produce 07-08 numbers for it to be worth it.
You know it's a common rhetorical technique usually associated with cowardice to preface something by proclaiming to not be or do or say that very something. Along the lines of "Now I'm not a racist.." or "Well, I don't wanna offend you but.."
You know it's a common rhetorical technique usually associated with cowardice to preface something by proclaiming to not be or do or say that very something. Along the lines of "Now I'm not a racist.." or "Well, I don't wanna offend you but.."
Yeah but I didn't say any of that. Not even remotely close to it. But if you want to take it with me getting "on" the hate train with that post. Then I'm fine with that, I need to see more production out of this guy.
If you had said, he needs to be better to be worth his contract, that would be a fair thing to say, or even to say he needs to be play like a #1 center. But 07/08 i.e. 100 point pace and close to 50 goal pace? Yeah, no, that's haterade.
The cap hit is a bit over 6 million. That's the 43rd highest cap hit in the game, there's I think around 29 forwards with a higher cap hit so it's not like the money is asking for the Hart or Art Ross. And in the summer it will be even more guys as new big contracts are bound to be signed.
He's currently 42nd or so in league scoring + an all-round game that quite a few guys in front of him don't have. Could he have a better season yeah? But ever since a poor first 20 games he's gotten to the point where you can say, at this point he is doing what he is paid to do. Do I hope for even more? Yes of course.
But just the way the argument is constructed, he needs 90+ points to not be overpaid and then claiming not to be a hater, that's just absurd and dumb.
But just the way the argument is constructed, he needs 90+ points to not be overpaid and then claiming not to be a hater, that's just absurd and dumb.
maybe he has a very high expectation but I dont think it's dumb and absurd. I mean, I'm not saying I agree with his view or anything. (I dont) but can you not really imagine such argument can exist? I can, very easily.
you need to broaden up your view bro. why do you sound like you have an issue on this matter? Z hasnt had a great season so far. what's there to be pissed about saying it out loud?
So to summarize from all the people who are much "better" fans than me...
Zee is the face of the franchise. He has earned the right to stay. Even if we could swap him for a superstar, we should resist that urge and hang on to him until his contract expires.
So could all of you people lecturing me on "loyalty" please share the list of Red Wing players that we are ALLOWED to trade? I mean if trading Zee for Nash is considered such a sin, then I assume Lidstrom, Homer, Pav, Mule, Kronwall are all off limits too. So who are we allowed to trade? Seriously, give me the list of players that we are allowed to suggest in a trade without being lectured on loyalty or called less of a fan. Let me guess...Kindl, Ericsson, Hudler, Emmerton. Just want to know which names are allowed. Thanks fan police.
Z hasnt had a great season so far. what's there to be pissed about saying it out loud?
Depends how you reference the season.
As a total for his points, he's down about 25% from his usual PPG pace. However, he's been tearing it up since he got over his slump. His rough start really set him back to a point where it was almost impossible to match PPG.
So the season as a whole is below his usual standard, but his play in the majority of games this season HAS been great. I think he's done a great job, I really do. He's playing excellent defensively against top units and his line continually puts up points. I can't ask for much more.
Also, as people are tired of me saying, when the team overall is scoring at a high pace it's not overly important Zetterberg match career marks. It's more important the team hits above average, not just our stars. But I don't mean the hash out that debate again.
