I still think you look to trade Zee while he has relative value. 31-year olds with chronic back issues aren't the kind of guys I want signed for 9 more years at $6.1M. If we lacked leadership, then you suck it up and tolerate his declining production. But our roster is full of leaders. So if you can add a younger star or top prospect I think you have to consider it.
Like why not trade Zee and Kindl to the Oilers for their #1 this summer? They get a star to mentor these kids, and let them worry about Zee at age 37,38,39,40. We get a lotto pick. Then turn around and sign Parise.
Parise + a lotto pick >>> Zee
Could have done the same thing last summer with Brad Richards. Sign him. Then trade Fil or Zee in a Burns package.
Richards + Burns >>> Fil/Zee + #1 + top prospect
Don't understand why we don't pursue deals like that.
Why would the other teams make those trades? Please don't ever be a GM. Plus, Zata or Filppula >>>>> Burns.
I still think you look to trade Zee while he has relative value. 31-year olds with chronic back issues aren't the kind of guys I want signed for 9 more years at $6.1M. If we lacked leadership, then you suck it up and tolerate his declining production. But our roster is full of leaders. So if you can add a younger star or top prospect I think you have to consider it.
Like why not trade Zee and Kindl to the Oilers for their #1 this summer? They get a star to mentor these kids, and let them worry about Zee at age 37,38,39,40. We get a lotto pick. Then turn around and sign Parise.
Parise + a lotto pick >>> Zee
Could have done the same thing last summer with Brad Richards. Sign him. Then trade Fil or Zee in a Burns package.
Richards + Burns >>> Fil/Zee + #1 + top prospect
Don't understand why we don't pursue deals like that.
No. Even though he really slumped mightily to start the season, he can still reach 70 points, possibly 75. With his defensive acumen and leadership, that is something that is NOT traded.
Burns is not even worth Fil. You seem to feel that there are other, better individual parts out there that if they are just stacked together, mathematically it would create a better team.
Team's have to play like a team, not just a bunch of great parts, though those are certainly needed, but as one great unit.
You guys are right about "loyalty is bs" ONLY if managing a hockey team is as simple as just looking at statistics/numbers on papers. Everyone can be a GM if it's simply checking which player on ur roster is underperforming and trade them before they lose value or even waive them and pick up someone else. That's called FANTASY hockey.
You guys seem to lack any perception of the culture in the DRW organization and respect for those who have done so much for the organization. Loyalty is what makes DRW a respected team/organization in the NHL. Players want to come to detroit not only because of the winning tradition but also because of the support and respect that they get from the team management.
Trading away Zee, who has played such a huge role in helping us won a cup (Remember who completely shut down Crosby in 08??????) and remain an elite team for the years that he has been in the team, is simply blowing up the culture that the red wings has been praised for years and scaring away others who might want to play for detroit. Now we would have a team that doesn't care what you have done and would kick you out whenever they think you are underperforming or losing value. So we no longer support our players? It's gonna change the team/locker room environment forever because it would tell people that the red wings is a team that is more than willing to throw anyone under the bus anytime. Is that what we want to see the red wings become? Who would want to play for such a team? We might as well trade away Lidstrom before we lose him for nothing if that's what you guys want.
Yet ironically, Holland has gone after Fleishmann, Upshall, Jagr, Vokoun, Smith, Theodore, and it doesn't seem like people are lining up to come here? Perhaps players look at our roster and don't see us being competitive for much longer because Holland keeps re-signing guys like Bert until they retire. Pav, Zee, Mule aren't getting better. Other than Kronwall and Fil, we have no impact players under 30. Helm and Abby don't really count. So maybe guys that are desperate to win see Holland's loyalty getting in the way?
Yet the complete opposite approach was Philly. They just "dumped" their homegrown cornerstones Richards and Carter. How UN-loyal right? Yet a week later they managed to sign the #1 UFA goalie to a lifetime deal, they added Talbot for 5 years at a very attractive cap hit, Jagr chose them over us. Newly acquired Voracek and Simmonds agreed to extensions. So how on earth could Philly attract free agents after making the most UN-LOYAL trade of all time? Where's the logic? So if we packaged Zee for Nash, why would Parise and Suter suddenly be afraid to sign here? Wouldn't that indicate our franchise takes winning seriously and will do what it takes to remain competitive? Sheesh, you guys act like trading a guy is a crime. We're not abusing anyone, we're not slandering them, we're not robbing them of their dignity ofr livlihood, we're spending $60M to ice a team, flying them on a private jet, giving guys time off for their families, I highly doubt trading Zee or Fil is suddenly going to scare everyone away.
Killbuttman doesn't understand that Richards made it clear he was going to NY. We would have had to offer ~8mil a year to get him, and his numbers this year really aren't that great.
Yet ironically, Holland has gone after Fleishmann, Upshall, Jagr, Vokoun, Smith, Theodore, and it doesn't seem like people are lining up to come here? Perhaps players look at our roster and don't see us being competitive for much longer because Holland keeps re-signing guys like Bert until they retire. Pav, Zee, Mule aren't getting better. Other than Kronwall and Fil, we have no impact players under 30. Helm and Abby don't really count. So maybe guys that are desperate to win see Holland's loyalty getting in the way?
Yet the complete opposite approach was Philly. They just "dumped" their homegrown cornerstones Richards and Carter. How UN-loyal right? Yet a week later they managed to sign the #1 UFA goalie to a lifetime deal, they added Talbot for 5 years at a very attractive cap hit, Jagr chose them over us. Newly acquired Voracek and Simmonds agreed to extensions. So how on earth could Philly attract free agents after making the most UN-LOYAL trade of all time? Where's the logic? So if we packaged Zee for Nash, why would Parise and Suter suddenly be afraid to sign here? Wouldn't that indicate our franchise takes winning seriously and will do what it takes to remain competitive? Sheesh, you guys act like trading a guy is a crime. We're not abusing anyone, we're not slandering them, we're not robbing them of their dignity ofr livlihood, we're spending $60M to ice a team, flying them on a private jet, giving guys time off for their families, I highly doubt trading Zee or Fil is suddenly going to scare everyone away.
Let's play a game, shall we KB?
Team One currently has a record of 35-21-7. They have 77 points. They can't compete with the powerhouses in their conference and are likely to be one and done in the playoffs with their newly signed terrible goaltender. They have a mediocre to bad defense. They tore their team down by trading the two cornerstones of their teams at the discretion of their captain, who's career is now over due to injuries. They are +18 and are very mediocre at defense. This team seems to have a history of trading homegrown players away. If they had not, they would likely be a powerhouse team.
Team Two currently has a record of 42-19-3. They have 84 Points. They have a winning record against every team in their conference, except for one team that they are tied with having split four games. They play great defense, and are just as good at offense as Team Two. They are a conference leading +41 and are currently in contention for the President's Trophy. A majority of their team is homegrown. They treat their veterans well and have a crop of rookies that are ready to take over. They are considered a favorite to win the Stanley Cup this year. They also set an NHL Record of 23 straight home wins.
One of these teams are a team that you parade and celebrate as great. The other one you revile and treat with contempt. You hate the management's guts and wish to take over as GM/Coach. Can you please Identify these teams for me?
Killbuttman doesn't understand that Richards made it clear he was going to NY. We would have had to offer ~8mil a year to get him, and his numbers this year really aren't that great.
And Burns was traded at draft. You don't trade your best players at draft and then hope that you replace them from free agency. Maybe otherways but Burns was already gone before there was any clue where Richards would be signing.
I wonder why the "fan police" refuse to consider that maybe some of us want to see this team do better than lose in round 2?
So far, I don't see where our improvement has been... right now, it's just regular season stuff.
Go back to before the 01-02 cup.. Holland got Hasek, Hull and Robitaille.
Go back to the 08 cup, Holland let Lang, Whitney and Schneider go and traded Williams. He picked up Stuart and Rafalski.
It doesn't make you less of fan because you believe change can help your team.
Does that mean I want Zetterberg traded? Hell no.
But you guys are responding to that sort of nonsense with your own nonsense... this BS about loyalty and how we should be happy to have all these guys.
Quote:
Originally Posted by killbuttman
Yet ironically, Holland has gone after Fleishmann, Upshall, Jagr, Vokoun, Smith, Theodore, and it doesn't seem like people are lining up to come here? Perhaps players look at our roster and don't see us being competitive for much longer because Holland keeps re-signing guys like Bert until they retire. Pav, Zee, Mule aren't getting better. Other than Kronwall and Fil, we have no impact players under 30. Helm and Abby don't really count. So maybe guys that are desperate to win see Holland's loyalty getting in the way?
Yet the complete opposite approach was Philly. They just "dumped" their homegrown cornerstones Richards and Carter. How UN-loyal right? Yet a week later they managed to sign the #1 UFA goalie to a lifetime deal, they added Talbot for 5 years at a very attractive cap hit, Jagr chose them over us. Newly acquired Voracek and Simmonds agreed to extensions. So how on earth could Philly attract free agents after making the most UN-LOYAL trade of all time? Where's the logic? So if we packaged Zee for Nash, why would Parise and Suter suddenly be afraid to sign here? Wouldn't that indicate our franchise takes winning seriously and will do what it takes to remain competitive? Sheesh, you guys act like trading a guy is a crime. We're not abusing anyone, we're not slandering them, we're not robbing them of their dignity ofr livlihood, we're spending $60M to ice a team, flying them on a private jet, giving guys time off for their families, I highly doubt trading Zee or Fil is suddenly going to scare everyone away.
What happened in Philly during the summer is not a good example. Again, you are looking at players on papers. Richards and Carter were known to be causing trouble in Philly's locker room with their late night drinking parties. Philly knew they cannot continue with Richards and Carter because they were not committing 100% to the team and the problem would only get worse. Plus, although they are both great players, can you say what they have done for their team are comparable to what Zee has done? Zee is a respected leader in the locker room and the DRW organization. He won a stanley cup, Conn smyth and nominated for calder and selke. Even if he doesn't put up points as he used to, he is still a guy that you would want to have on a team just because of his leadership and defense capability.
Now, he had a bad start this season (and he's clearly picking up his play right now), and you are yearning to trade him away. You are pretty much completely throwing what Zee has done out of the picture and not even giving him the benefit of doubt.
I am not saying trading someone away is a crime, but you can't just blow the team up (especially throwing a player with the status like Zee under the bus), put in whoever is better on papers and numbers and expect to have a better team.
What happened in Philly during the summer is not a good example. Again, you are looking at players on papers. Richards and Carter were known to be causing trouble in Philly's locker room with their late night drinking parties. Philly knew they cannot continue with Richards and Carter because they were not committing 100% to the team and the problem would only get worse. Plus, although they are both great players, can you say what they have done for their team are comparable to what Zee has done? Zee is a respected leader in the locker room and the DRW organization. He won a stanley cup, Conn smyth and nominated for calder and selke. Even if he doesn't put up points as he used to, he is still a guy that you would want to have on a team just because of his leadership and defense capability.
Now, he had a bad start this season (and he's clearly picking up his play right now), and you are yearning to trade him away. You are pretty much completely throwing what Zee has done out of the picture and not even giving him the benefit of doubt.
I am not saying trading someone away is a crime, but you can't just blow the team up (especially throwing a player with the status like Zee under the bus), put in whoever is better on papers and numbers and expect to have a better team.
How is trading Zee equivalent to blowing up the team? I'm not belittling his past accomplishments. I'm just saying he is a diminishing asset as time moves on. As of today, or this summer, his value remains relatively high. So why not consider moving him for a more valuable piece? Will it change the room - yeah, but no more than when Yzerman or Shanny or Draper left. No more than Lidstrom and Homer's pending departures. It's an insult to the other leaders of this franchise to act as if losing Zee would destroy the chemistry. Would UFAs shun the Wings for making a hockey trade? Would trading Zee completely negate all the class we shown towards dozens and dozens of other veterans? I think you're all over-estimating the impact of trading Zee. So hypothetically, we package Zee for a top 10 pick, and then turn around and offer Parise $8M. Doesn't that invigorate this franchise? Our top 6 improves, and we've added a huge asset for the future. Again, I know the reputation Carter and Richards had...but it doesn't change the fact that they dumped 2 cornerstones, yet still had no problem signing free agents a week later.
How is trading Zee equivalent to blowing up the team? I'm not belittling his past accomplishments. I'm just saying he is a diminishing asset as time moves on. As of today, or this summer, his value remains relatively high. So why not consider moving him for a more valuable piece? Will it change the room - yeah, but no more than when Yzerman or Shanny or Draper left. No more than Lidstrom and Homer's pending departures. It's an insult to the other leaders of this franchise to act as if losing Zee would destroy the chemistry. Would UFAs shun the Wings for making a hockey trade? Would trading Zee completely negate all the class we shown towards dozens and dozens of other veterans? I think you're all over-estimating the impact of trading Zee. So hypothetically, we package Zee for a top 10 pick, and then turn around and offer Parise $8M. Doesn't that invigorate this franchise? Our top 6 improves, and we've added a huge asset for the future. Again, I know the reputation Carter and Richards had...but it doesn't change the fact that they dumped 2 cornerstones, yet still had no problem signing free agents a week later.
So, according to you diminishing assets should be traded. And, i don't think you would disagree with me that it is unlikely for Kronwall, Franzen, Cleary, hudler, white and even datsyuk and etc. to have another breakout year where their productions go up another notch. That means over time their values are going to diminish too, and we probably should trade all of them now before we lose them for nth or less? Heck, maybe it's time to get rid of Lidstrom too before we lose him for retirement. I am sure all other teams in the NHL would love to have him on their team (even just to mentor their young defensemen) and we will be able to fetch a couple of draft picks or decent prospect. But I guess you won't be understand the point of having veteran players providing leadership and experience and mentoring young guys because you only look at statistics on papers and whoever is not performing or diminishing in terms of production should be traded away. Oh, why don't we also tank for a couple of years and get top draft picks to get young players with value too?
Zee is still an important part of the current DRW system. He's providing leadership in the locker room. And his play is definitely picking up with 16 pts in the last 12 games. and like I said, even if he's not putting up points, his leadership, accomplishments, experience, hockey vision are not easy to replace.
Woaw. Didn´t know that this was going on on this board. What i´m talking about you talking about trading Franzen and hating on Z.
I really do hope your GM feels the same way you guys do and make a call to Sather. I would LOVE to see those guys in blue :-)
Franzen 24 goals and 25 assists in 64 games for 4/season=YES PLEASE!
And Zetterberg isn´t what he used to be. But still a GREAT 2 way player that has racked up 51 points in 64 games. That for 6/season=YES PLEASE!
I don´t mean it in a bad way. But you guys are a little spoiled :-)
For whatever reason, Zetterberg was slumping. It happens. It happened to Datsyuk during his 70 point season. Zetterberg is clearly getting back in form. He's been scoring more. He's been setting up plays a lot better. His defensive game... well, that hasn't gone gone any where. But his offensive game has been much better.
I wouldn't be suprised to see him hit 20 goals. He's only 6 goals away. Considering he was sitting at 9 forever, it just goes to show how much he's stepped up his game since the All-Star break.
He'll realisically hit about 18-20 goals and 50-55 assist. That has him at 68-75 points. this year. It's not 92 points. But as the poster I quoted here. A 20 goal 50-55 assist (this is with Zetterberg slumping 60% of the season on the goal department...not defensively or setting up people/plays/assists) who plays a complete 2-way game, and a leader? How is that not valued on this board?
Only the Red Wing fans. Let's get Parise instead. He looks better for the Red Wings...... On paper. I mean, since he seems to put up better numbers.
EDIT: As for the "Zetterberg 2008 numbers" argument. I've always said he's a better winger than a center. He's an awesome center, but a better winger. Get a center to replace Zetterberg on the 2nd line, put him on Datsyuk wing and watch his numbers rise. Will it be 2008 numbers? Nah (2008 was the perfect storm for the Wings. It was their year). He will be a constant 80 point guy, though. Not a constant 70 point guy.
Yes we are spoiled. What fan base complains and requests a trade for an elite 2-way center who plays elite defense that puts up 70+ points year in and year out? Only Red Wing fans. lol
Woaw. Didn´t know that this was going on on this board. What i´m talking about you talking about trading Franzen and hating on Z.
I really do hope your GM feels the same way you guys do and make a call to Sather. I would LOVE to see those guys in blue :-)
Franzen 24 goals and 25 assists in 64 games for 4/season=YES PLEASE!
And Zetterberg isn´t what he used to be. But still a GREAT 2 way player that has racked up 51 points in 64 games. That for 6/season=YES PLEASE!
I don´t mean it in a bad way. But you guys are a little spoiled :-)
I guess some is a bit frustrated that they havent played to thier potential, we have seen better efforts from both of them (looking at the season as a whole), but at least Zetterberg is getting back in shape, which is super important now that Datsyuk is injured, now our offensive engine is Z and we need him to play at his best.
Franzen may be a floater, but he is still our best scorer which makes him important. But we also know he COULD have been scoring even more.
Yet ironically, Holland has gone after Fleishmann, Upshall, Jagr, Vokoun, Smith, Theodore, and it doesn't seem like people are lining up to come here? Perhaps players look at our roster and don't see us being competitive for much longer because Holland keeps re-signing guys like Bert until they retire. Pav, Zee, Mule aren't getting better. Other than Kronwall and Fil, we have no impact players under 30. Helm and Abby don't really count. So maybe guys that are desperate to win see Holland's loyalty getting in the way?
Yet the complete opposite approach was Philly. They just "dumped" their homegrown cornerstones Richards and Carter. How UN-loyal right? Yet a week later they managed to sign the #1 UFA goalie to a lifetime deal, they added Talbot for 5 years at a very attractive cap hit, Jagr chose them over us. Newly acquired Voracek and Simmonds agreed to extensions. So how on earth could Philly attract free agents after making the most UN-LOYAL trade of all time? Where's the logic? So if we packaged Zee for Nash, why would Parise and Suter suddenly be afraid to sign here? Wouldn't that indicate our franchise takes winning seriously and will do what it takes to remain competitive? Sheesh, you guys act like trading a guy is a crime. We're not abusing anyone, we're not slandering them, we're not robbing them of their dignity ofr livlihood, we're spending $60M to ice a team, flying them on a private jet, giving guys time off for their families, I highly doubt trading Zee or Fil is suddenly going to scare everyone away.
Well in the end Money > Loyalty. Bryzgalov would be nuts to have turned down that outrageous deal just because the Flyers were "unloyal" to Carter and Richards.
Jagr was going were the money was as were most FAs. Also Jagr is 40, what does he care about loyalty he's not playing much longer. If you can prove that Holland maybe comparable offers (I'm talking <1m difference) than ya you might have a point.
Simmonds and Voracek were RFAs coming off ELC's, so it aint like they had much leverage. So they're probably bad examples.
I'm sure anyone looking to sign a long term deal with Philly from here on out will want an NTC or won't they won't sign. Bryz got one. Players don't sign 10 year deals anticipating getting traded with in a few years. Also Richards and Carter were more than pure hockey moves. There were off the ice issues involved.
Last edited by Big Poppa Puck: 03-02-2012 at 08:27 AM.
He'll realisically hit about 18-20 goals and 50-55 assist. That has him at 68-75 points. this year. It's not 92 points. But as the poster I quoted here. A 20 goal 50-55 assist (this is with Zetterberg slumping 60% of the season on the goal department...not defensively or setting up people/plays/assists) who plays a complete 2-way game, and a leader? How is that not valued on this board?
Let me explain how.
This 20 goal 55 assist Zetterberg you are talking about averages .243 goals per game and .67 assists per game, is a below .500 faceoff guy, and has been scored on more and more heavily at ES for the past 4 years. That last bit is relevant when talking about a 'complete 2 way game', which I presume implies you are applauding his defense.
That guy has a cap hit just north of 6 million bucks.
There is a player on the Wings who over the past 4 seasons averages .403 goals per game and .37 assists per game who has a cap hit more than 2 mil less than Zettereberg's, and who people don't think earn that deal.
And let's be clear here: Zetterberg has only cracked 55 assists one time in his whole career. He'd have to crank out an assist a night until the end of the season to hit that number this year. His goals per game went down in 2009, then it went down in 2010, then it went down in 2011, and it's gone down in 2012 so far.
20 goals and 55 assists may be a nigh-unreachable high-water mark for Zetterberg at this point rather than a median level of performance. And he is due to make at least 7 mil a year for six more years after this one.
Here's what I see happening based on his trends absent a significant addition to the top 6. He's going to bottom out as a goal scorer somewhere in the 17-20 range and tend to put up 42-48 assists. His defense will start to become less of a positive and more of a 'well, at least he isn't BAD defensively' kind of deal. IMO Z's defensive play has been pretty significantly overrated for a couple years now. He was phenomenal defensively in '07, '08 and '09 and has slipped noticeably and considerably since then.
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Let's get Parise instead. He looks better for the Red Wings...... On paper. I mean, since he seems to put up better numbers.
Production matters. The problem I have with Z is that it is readily apparent he can no longer carry a line, even a second line against second line opposition. Unless he gets a big-time linemate his numbers are going to continue to slide.
Quote:
He will be a constant 80 point guy, though. Not a constant 70 point guy.
Zetterberg has scored 80 or more points exactly 3 times in his whole career.
Quote:
Yes we are spoiled. What fan base complains and requests a trade for an elite 2-way center who plays elite defense that puts up 70+ points year in and year out? Only Red Wing fans. lol
You have to consider cap number. If this were 2002 I wouldn't care what his contract was. I don't go to many games so it's not like they are spending my money. With a cap it's a whole different ballgame.
The problem is that a guy making 6 mil has to do more than what Z has been doing in Detroit. He can't go and have 65 points in 82 games, play barely above average defense, and be a .500 faceoff guy. That's Mike Richards or Tomas Plekanec or Anze Kopitar. That isn't going to get it done. There's a reason why teams pay those guys what they make and never win anything.
I guess some is a bit frustrated that they havent played to thier potential, we have seen better efforts from both of them (looking at the season as a whole), but at least Zetterberg is getting back in shape, which is super important now that Datsyuk is injured, now our offensive engine is Z and we need him to play at his best.
Franzen may be a floater, but he is still our best scorer which makes him important. But we also know he COULD have been scoring even more.
Seems weird to say it but the offensive engine in Detroit right now is Filppula. Glad Zetterberg's heating up though, and no one should forget that Z does most of the hard-work along the boards for that line.
Yet ironically, Holland has gone after Fleishmann, Upshall, Jagr, Vokoun, Smith, Theodore, and it doesn't seem like people are lining up to come here? Perhaps players look at our roster and don't see us being competitive for much longer because Holland keeps re-signing guys like Bert until they retire. Pav, Zee, Mule aren't getting better. Other than Kronwall and Fil, we have no impact players under 30. Helm and Abby don't really count. So maybe guys that are desperate to win see Holland's loyalty getting in the way?
Yet the complete opposite approach was Philly. They just "dumped" their homegrown cornerstones Richards and Carter. How UN-loyal right? Yet a week later they managed to sign the #1 UFA goalie to a lifetime deal, they added Talbot for 5 years at a very attractive cap hit, Jagr chose them over us. Newly acquired Voracek and Simmonds agreed to extensions. So how on earth could Philly attract free agents after making the most UN-LOYAL trade of all time? Where's the logic? So if we packaged Zee for Nash, why would Parise and Suter suddenly be afraid to sign here? Wouldn't that indicate our franchise takes winning seriously and will do what it takes to remain competitive? Sheesh, you guys act like trading a guy is a crime. We're not abusing anyone, we're not slandering them, we're not robbing them of their dignity ofr livlihood, we're spending $60M to ice a team, flying them on a private jet, giving guys time off for their families, I highly doubt trading Zee or Fil is suddenly going to scare everyone away.
How's that one working out so far? Also, Jeff Carter's attitude this year shows exactly why they wanted to be rid of him - no such lockerroom cancer in Det, that we know of at least.
Seems weird to say it but the offensive engine in Detroit right now is Filppula. Glad Zetterberg's heating up though, and no one should forget that Z does most of the hard-work along the boards for that line.
Yeah kind of forgot about Filppula. Filppula has been playing well, one of the reasons DRW still a top team.
Seems like the people who focus on raw #'s and monologue incessantly with stat facts really don't watch the games. As someone else in the thread said... great for fantasy hockey, not great for being a real GM. I imagine these same people tune in for maybe 10-15 minutes, and then just check the stat sheet at the end and come ***** on forums.
I've called out the Mule to be traded because I actually watch him play and I see his attitude. Not because I look at the stat sheet every damn day. He has respectable numbers.
Z may be slumping, but he's always trying. You could tell that in the beginning of the season he was physically laboring, maybe even emotionally. This has nearly completely turned around. He called himself out, and since then has been great.
Does Franzen look like he's physically laboring? Did he call out his lazy play? No, he looks disinterested. He's happy chipping in an amazing play once every who ****ing knows how many games, and float around the rest. But I do see his value in the playoffs, nobody can deny that.
This 20 goal 55 assist Zetterberg you are talking about averages .243 goals per game and .67 assists per game, is a below .500 faceoff guy, and has been scored on more and more heavily at ES for the past 4 years. That last bit is relevant when talking about a 'complete 2 way game', which I presume implies you are applauding his defense.
That guy has a cap hit just north of 6 million bucks.
There is a player on the Wings who over the past 4 seasons averages .403 goals per game and .37 assists per game who has a cap hit more than 2 mil less than Zettereberg's, and who people don't think earn that deal.
And let's be clear here: Zetterberg has only cracked 55 assists one time in his whole career. He'd have to crank out an assist a night until the end of the season to hit that number this year. His goals per game went down in 2009, then it went down in 2010, then it went down in 2011, and it's gone down in 2012 so far.
20 goals and 55 assists may be a nigh-unreachable high-water mark for Zetterberg at this point rather than a median level of performance. And he is due to make at least 7 mil a year for six more years after this one.
Here's what I see happening based on his trends absent a significant addition to the top 6. He's going to bottom out as a goal scorer somewhere in the 17-20 range and tend to put up 42-48 assists. His defense will start to become less of a positive and more of a 'well, at least he isn't BAD defensively' kind of deal. IMO Z's defensive play has been pretty significantly overrated for a couple years now. He was phenomenal defensively in '07, '08 and '09 and has slipped noticeably and considerably since then.
Production matters. The problem I have with Z is that it is readily apparent he can no longer carry a line, even a second line against second line opposition. Unless he gets a big-time linemate his numbers are going to continue to slide.
Zetterberg has scored 80 or more points exactly 3 times in his whole career.
You have to consider cap number. If this were 2002 I wouldn't care what his contract was. I don't go to many games so it's not like they are spending my money. With a cap it's a whole different ballgame.
The problem is that a guy making 6 mil has to do more than what Z has been doing in Detroit. He can't go and have 65 points in 82 games, play barely above average defense, and be a .500 faceoff guy. That's Mike Richards or Tomas Plekanec or Anze Kopitar. That isn't going to get it done. There's a reason why teams pay those guys what they make and never win anything.
Wow. You called it. Zetterberg IS an overpaid waste of Red Wing space. I bet the Red Wings would do well to higher you for one of their scouts, or better yet, somebody who can run the team. Could you be the GM?
Seriously. He's having a bad year (hello...Datsyuk's 70 point season...since everybody is obsessed with numbers, there you go). So what if he's a 70-80 (omg he's only been over 80+ points 3 whole times his entire career... he's a bust) point guy. You know how hard it is to find a center that puts up 70-80 points and play a two way game effectively? You can down play his defense all you want, but he's right up there with Pavel. Maybe not as good, but he's still one of the best 2-way forwards in the game, defensively.
It's the same old "omg he's not scoring so let's trade him now so we can get the next up and comming thing that is Parise yes omg yes right now that should be the Red Wings evil plan maybe a three way trade to get Suter maybe not there's gotta be some dumb GM's out there so we can get both hahahahaha Go Red Wings *insert player* sucks" mentallity.
When next season rolls around, and Zetterberg is having a typical season (too many ranges...could be 80, could be 70, could be 90...who the eff knows...you would probably say 70 just to be negative) people will be singing a different tune. What have you done for me lately? Yea, I think so.
As far as his face offs. I'll say it again. He should be a winger!!! He's not a natural center. He's a pretty good center, but the guy is a sniper at heart... He needs a friggin set up man. Zetterberg has a great shot, and should be set up no questions asked. That's my opinion any way.
By the way, about the 80 points comment. I said he would be an 80 point guy if he was a WINGER... he was a winger during his 92 point season... After that, He was running his own line as a center (with the exception of '09, he did use Zetterberg and Datsyuk for awhile before Babcock thought the were... "not working").
After that, Zetterbergs goals went down dramatically. I don't think it is a coincidence. Put Zetterberg back on Datsyuks wing, or any wing and watch his number fly. That's what I meant. But thanks for choping my post into bits, especially this part, and just answering it out of context.
When next season rolls around, and Zetterberg is having a typical season (too many ranges...could be 80, could be 70, could be 90...who the eff knows...
