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Awesome article by Corey Hirsch

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Old
10-30-2004, 03:33 PM
  #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Seachd
You can't say that until the Union makes a decent offer. They haven't come close yet.
well considering the problems are with revenue disparity between clubs the players opening offer is alot more effective in dealing with the issues than the owners opening offer.

when will the owners make a decent offer, they havent come close yet. unless you actually believe 31m is a reasonable hard cap.

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10-30-2004, 03:34 PM
  #27
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Originally Posted by handtrick
In fact, that may be a good thread to start...."What 5 accounts are most likely, in fact, Bob Goodenow and his lackeys".........
im Ted Saskin !!! but not that ugly !!!

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10-30-2004, 03:41 PM
  #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Digger12
If you think he has no right to complain, fine....surivival of the fittest and all that. By that same token, the NHLPA is setting themselves up to look like the world's biggest hypocrites if they raise one word of complaint against replacement players that include someone like Hirsch. I mean, it's just owners getting the best players they can get to please their fanbase, right?
Of course the difference is though that Thornton and Nash arent crossing a picket line. I can see Corey's point about rich guys that are just coming over to keep in shape, must seem a little unfair, but many are playing for their home teams, and others are the best players available to fill the exemptions and have been sought after and pursued and gave them the best offer.

Im not sure what the players position would exactly be, but if they refuse to play and arent working, they know the owners will use replacements. I think they have a right to make that uncomfortable, as long as they are no longer working abroad but actually striking. If they continue to play in Europe, sure, Iginla, Heatley, Thornton, Nash will all play in Europe while Hirsch, Bohonos, Commodore and Pothier play here. If thats what you want.

Id think Pronger is going to live with guys that otherwise have no shot of making the NHL crossing as replacement players while he strikes, if they havent decertified, but players that otherwise would make the NHL on their own merits are the ones that have to stick together.

Bettman is just sitting back, not negotiating, not making any offers, and looking very much like they have no intention of it. They are just sitting back hoping the union eats itself while never putting forth anything concrete for criticism. They are doing a good job of distracting from their internal pressures. The media who pimp themselves off these players are sure trying to make them crack. Doing Bettmans work for him, and not questioning the owners at all.



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10-30-2004, 04:03 PM
  #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thinkwild
Bettman is just sitting back, not negotiating, not making any offers, and looking very much like they have no intention of it. They are just sitting back hoping the union eats itself while never putting forth anything concrete for criticism. They are doing a good job of distracting from their internal pressures. The media who pimp themselves off these players are sure trying to make them crack. Doing Bettmans work for him, and not questioning the owners at all.
I would agree, that seems exactly like what Bettman and the owners are doing. And to be honest, if I were in their shoes I'd be doing the same thing.

If my opposition is doing a fine job of tearing itself apart, why step in?

What the union needs to do is get its house in order (if it's even possible at this point), and give a SERIOUS offer to the owners. It doesn't need to be a cap, just something with much more substance than what was done before...just swallow the pride and do it.

If the owners shoot it back across the table, so what? At least then it might get the media off their backs, and perhaps put the pressure on the owners.

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10-30-2004, 04:04 PM
  #30
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I'm glad players are starting to speak out against the greedy 6 million a year plus players, and i'm also glad players like Hirsch are saying things to the players who take there trips to Europe....except Marco Sturm and Nils Ekman. They can play in Europe untill the lock out is over

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10-30-2004, 04:45 PM
  #31
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it's one thing having players play for their home team/country, it's another thing to have players who have lucrative deals in the nhl and have already made 10's of millions coming over just for the paycheck... if you've got that much cash from playing hockey then you can afford to sit without for a good couple of years, but when you come in and take a job from an ex nhl'er who may not be good enough for the nhl anymore, but still can do SOMETHING in a european league, then it's petty, stupid and greedy quite frankly, these are the same players crying that they won't get their high 7 figure salaries if they cave in to the league's proposal, yet they're playing for 5 or 6 figures in europe??? come on now, if the union thinks they're that strong they should take a look overseas and see how many players are playing there and what they're making. quite frankly i hope the owners are as well, when/if the league ever gets through this i hope they say ok here's your market value and give them what they made over in whatever league they're played in over in europe. after all.... it is their fair market value right?

sidenote to this would be the RSL as they're quite wealthy and obviously paying their players extremely well.

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10-30-2004, 05:12 PM
  #32
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Once the season resumes, these players will take off.

So how right is it for these idiots to come and take spots away from guys that usually take those spots when they aren't even committed to stay there for the entire season??

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10-30-2004, 06:05 PM
  #33
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On the subject of Corey Hirsch, I'll still never ever forget the shootout in 94. He had the puck, and Forsberg got a couple of extra smacks at Corey's glove and then scored for the gold :mad:

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10-30-2004, 06:13 PM
  #34
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i think the biggest difference between hirsch and the NHLers in europe is that hirsch isnt good enough for the NHL. he didn't choose to not play in the nhl to go over to europe, he couldnt make the nhl. but the NHLers over there, they are good enough to play in the NHL and they choose to play over in europe. yes, hirsch did take jobs away from other european players, but its because he NEEDS the job. those NHLers dont need the job, they can be playing in the NHL right now earning 7 figures, but for their own reason they decide they would rather play in europe for a fraction of their NHL salary while taking away jobs from european players. for this reason i think hirsch have the right to complain.

 
Old
10-30-2004, 08:10 PM
  #35
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It's not about competing for jobs. It's about taking something you don't need, and preventing someone who does need it from getting it.

Why don't these players go down to the local food bank or soup kitchen? Free food after all, just waiting for someone to take it. They're just "competing" with the homeless, right?

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10-30-2004, 10:24 PM
  #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BG
That would depend on if I'm making a three million dollar salary, or a fifty-five thousand dollar salary.
Why should it if you love what you do?

You always hear about how retired players miss going to the rink and being part of the team atmosphere. They find it hard to adjust to something that has been part of pretty much their entire life. Would you give up the one thing that has been constant since you were a child, being a part of a team in the sport that you love, to do nothing?

What are the players going to do that they haven't been doing since June?

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10-30-2004, 10:46 PM
  #37
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I'm not going to voice my opinion on who is right or wrong in this situation, but the use of the term "scab" is inappropriate even though a lot of people are doing it. They can't be considered scabs because the European leagues are not on strike. A scab is someone who crosses a picket line to perform the work of someone who is on strike. Any replacement players in the NHL would not be scabs for the same reason. It's a lockout, not a strike.

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10-31-2004, 01:13 AM
  #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SuperKarateMonkey
yes, hirsch did take jobs away from other european players, but its because he NEEDS the job. those NHLers dont need the job, they can be playing in the NHL right now earning 7 figures, but for their own reason they decide they would rather play in europe for a fraction of their NHL salary while taking away jobs from european players. for this reason i think hirsch have the right to complain.
I think it is clear that the money is not a necessity for the players that came to play in Europe. But that doesn't mean there aren't other reasons. For example:
1) they need to stay competetive
2) many of them actually came back to play in front of their home country fans, for their former clubs.
So they do have reasons, if not monetary. By the way, I think Hirsch's lifetime NHL earnings are quite a bit larger than Gerber's. I do not think he needs to bring his pregnant wife and his children into this argument, he should have enough money to feed them.

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10-31-2004, 06:41 AM
  #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BlackRedGold
Hirsch is blaming the wrong people.

The owners are the ones who are causing all the players to play in Europe. If not for the lockout, Hirsch would still be playing in games.
Yeah, someone pointed a gun to their heads and said "hey, let's go steal other's jobs in Europe. How's that for union solidarity!"

Quote:
Originally Posted by BlackRedGold
And how much has Hirsch earned in his hockey career so far? He's probably earned over $2M in his career. Does he need the money that badly?
I always want to smack people like you. For the last time: you make alot of money, you spend alot of money. He has more expenses and is involved in more endeavors than yourself, so don't compare his plight to anything else.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BlackRedGold
And isn't he getting paid rather well for sitting on the bench?
And sir, you just explained why you are not an athlete.



Quote:
Originally Posted by BlackRedGold
Oh, a big sob story about how his wife can't watch him play. Once again, according to hockeydb.com, he only played 5 games last year. He was beaten out by a European. What's to say that it wouldn't happen again this year?
1. How do you know he was beaten out by a European and not hurt? You assume too much, and you know what they say about that....
2. Sitting on the bench is one step closer to being "not really needed anymore". He's worried about his job security, and if you have a job in which you make alot of money but you move alot (compare it to contract work because that is exactly what it is) then job security is the number one thing that stresses you.

All in all, I'd say you need to take a step back and do some self reflection yourself. I think some of us get caught up in sports so much they forget it can mirror your life if you look deeper at it. Hirsch is just a man worried about job security, and for anyone who does contract work (and not in a union) can understand why he's pissed. I don't think he and Martin Gerber are getting along at all right now LOL

Don't use the "survival of the fittest" and "competitive sports" unless you want to apply that to your own job. Some of us make good money and to have that stripped away after the new guy comes in is a bit daunting.

Quote:
Originally Posted by shveik
1) they need to stay competetive.
Yeah, so they can get the leg up on their brothers who stayed at home..
No one ever said they went for monetary reasons. We know this isn't the case, so anyone who thinks that it is needs to compare the paychecks closely.

Quote:
Originally Posted by shveik
2) many of them actually came back to play in front of their home country fans, for their former clubs.
I don't think anyone is really complaining about the Euros returning. I'd rather see Alfredsson go back and play home than to see Rick Nash continue his development when he decided to back the union's choices. Yeah, they were locked out but going elsewhere's instead of handling your situation at home is bullocks.

Quote:
Originally Posted by shveik
I do not think he needs to bring his pregnant wife and his children into this argument, he should have enough money to feed them.
As a person who has a pregnant wife and kids, I see exactly what he's talking about. Also, another reason he probably brought it up because he is more than likely speaking for others who may have it worse off than him, but is just using himself as an example. I'm assuming on this bit, but when you are trying to make a point about selfishness I tend to assume he's not just speaking about himself.

So, for you people who argue against, go get a contract job in Europe, and move your family over there. Hopefully, you won't have Joe Schmo (who is over qualified for your job and has made a bit more coin than you last tax season) decides he wants to leave his cushy job in Raleigh just to take the cubicle next to you just because he needs to "stay competitive" (i.e., his union is in a battle). Yeah, sounds silly, right?


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10-31-2004, 09:00 AM
  #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BlackRedGold
Why should it if you love what you do?

You always hear about how retired players miss going to the rink and being part of the team atmosphere. They find it hard to adjust to something that has been part of pretty much their entire life. Would you give up the one thing that has been constant since you were a child, being a part of a team in the sport that you love, to do nothing?

What are the players going to do that they haven't been doing since June?
Please, they're going to Europe because they love the game and are willing to play for a minimal salary in comparison to the one they make in North America? If they had that strong of sentiments towards the game itself, a reduction from an average salary of 1.8 to 1.3 million per season wouldn't be laced with as much squabbling as there currently is.

The NHLPA has clearly painted themselves with the distinction of operating for the benefit of the players who are making asinine salaries, or the players that make gross salaries, but don't deserve it; they could care less about the fringe NHL players and more specifically, the fringe players in Europe whom they've pushed out of a job. Let's be realistic here, are the NHL players that are in Europe currently snatching up jobs from the players who once were filling that role, really going to stay there once the NHL resumes, or are they going to jump back to the NHL where the money is astronomical? It's the same game, but apparently, their love for the game reaches lust when it's injected with a couple million dollars.

It's not as if there is nothing for these players to do, either. They could have formed a charity league all the while maintaining the aforementioned locker room presence and still carried on their love of the game; of course, the money isn't exactly going to be lining their pockets, so it probably isn't the wisest investment.

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10-31-2004, 09:51 AM
  #41
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WHurricane16
Yeah, someone pointed a gun to their heads and said "hey, let's go steal other's jobs in Europe. How's that for union solidarity!"
They aren't stealing jobs from fellow union members.

Quote:
I always want to smack people like you. For the last time: you make alot of money, you spend alot of money. He has more expenses and is involved in more endeavors than yourself, so don't compare his plight to anything else.
Nice. You're violent and asinine all in one paragraph!

How do you know he has more expenses and is involved in more endeavors then myself? Why are you assuming that?

Hirsch used to make a lot of money. He also should have known that he only has a short period of time to earn that money. He should have been able to budget and invest the money that he was making so that he'd be set for life.

Quote:
And sir, you just explained why you are not an athlete.
Is he crying about being poor or is he crying about not playing?

He could have gone over to Europe and started instead of riding the bench in the NHL but I guess he'd rather have had the money back then. But now it is about playing time.


Quote:
2. Sitting on the bench is one step closer to being "not really needed anymore". He's worried about his job security, and if you have a job in which you make alot of money but you move alot (compare it to contract work because that is exactly what it is) then job security is the number one thing that stresses you.

All in all, I'd say you need to take a step back and do some self reflection yourself. I think some of us get caught up in sports so much they forget it can mirror your life if you look deeper at it. Hirsch is just a man worried about job security, and for anyone who does contract work (and not in a union) can understand why he's pissed. I don't think he and Martin Gerber are getting along at all right now LOL
If he's so worried about job security why doesn't he find a line of work that's more secure? Being a hockey player in your 30's isn't exactly the most secure career.

Quote:
Don't use the "survival of the fittest" and "competitive sports" unless you want to apply that to your own job. Some of us make good money and to have that stripped away after the new guy comes in is a bit daunting.
It sounds like you're pretty insecure in your abilities and are afraid of holding on to your job. You're just projecting your feelings on to Hirsch's situation.

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10-31-2004, 10:09 AM
  #42
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Picket line, schmicket line. Hirsch is out of a job thanks to Martin Gerber. You blame the European owners for hiring the NHLers in the first place, well when Hirsch signs on as a replacement player, blame the NHL for giving him that job opportunity, not any of the replacement "scabs". It goes both ways.

I'll gladly watch replacement players. I find it easier to sympathize with millionaires who earn their money through business and hard work moreso than millionaires who earned their money playing a game.

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10-31-2004, 10:13 AM
  #43
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Originally Posted by WHurricane16
I always want to smack people like you. For the last time: you make alot of money, you spend alot of money. He has more expenses and is involved in more endeavors than yourself, so don't compare his plight to anything else.
Yeah, because Mike Modano's dog *needs* to eat $700 USD worth of gourmet dog food a month. I don't even make that much in a month.

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10-31-2004, 10:13 AM
  #44
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BlackRedGold
Is he crying about being poor or is he crying about not playing?
I think you can draw correlations between the two. The NHL players moved to Europe in order to maintain their level of skill, aid their development, and in the future, maximize their dollar by gaining from not having a prolonged summer; similarly, would Hirsch, who is in a position that he needs the money more than the NHL players solely because he doesn't have a multi-million dollar contract to fall back on, not be as equally concerned about playing when he can and maintaining his skill level; if he doesn't, and he is left in a situation of watching from the stands, he hurts his chance of maximizing his dollar while hes in the position to. Most importantly, the NHL players are just going to up and leave that situation when the NHL rectifies it's problem and they'll return, more or less in peak form, to comfy contracts, while players like Hirsch who have been left to sit in the bleachers will have to regain their former skill, and fight for a contract that could be hampered by their absence.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BlackRedGold
If he's so worried about job security why doesn't he find a line of work that's more secure? Being a hockey player in your 30's isn't exactly the most secure career.
The only reason he is concerned with job security is because NHL players, who are on a break, have pushed him out of work. Once they return to North America, the position is all his, but why should he be forced to erode while they play?

Quote:
Originally Posted by BlackRedGold
Hirsch used to make a lot of money. He also should have known that he only has a short period of time to earn that money. He should have been able to budget and invest the money that he was making so that he'd be set for life.
And the NHL players who are without a shadow of a doubt more finanacially secure are allowed to squabble over a decrease in their salary? Had these multi-million dollar players budgeted and invested their money, they wouldn't be hounding about cutting back their salary, and they'd focus on the game they allegedly love.

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10-31-2004, 10:32 AM
  #45
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Originally Posted by BG
I think you can draw correlations between the two. The NHL players moved to Europe in order to maintain their level of skill, aid their development, and in the future, maximize their dollar by gaining from not having a prolonged summer; similarly, would Hirsch, who is in a position that he needs the money more than the NHL players solely because he doesn't have a multi-million dollar contract to fall back on, not be as equally concerned about playing when he can and maintaining his skill level; if he doesn't, and he is left in a situation of watching from the stands, he hurts his chance of maximizing his dollar while hes in the position to. Most importantly, the NHL players are just going to up and leave that situation when the NHL rectifies it's problem and they'll return, more or less in peak form, to comfy contracts, while players like Hirsch who have been left to sit in the bleachers will have to regain their former skill, and fight for a contract that could be hampered by their absence.
If he's so concerned, he should try getting a job somewhere else at a lower level.

Quote:
The only reason he is concerned with job security is because NHL players, who are on a break, have pushed him out of work. Once they return to North America, the position is all his, but why should he be forced to erode while they play?
Because the calibre of play in these leagues has improved due to the availability of NHL players and he's not good enough to play. Doesn't the team have the responsibility to its fans to put the best possible team on the ice?

And he should worry about his job security even without the NHL players. He's getting older and there will be younger players from North America and Europe looking to take his job away.

Quote:
And the NHL players who are without a shadow of a doubt more finanacially secure are allowed to squabble over a decrease in their salary? Had these multi-million dollar players budgeted and invested their money, they wouldn't be hounding about cutting back their salary, and they'd focus on the game they allegedly love.
For the players it isn't about the money. It is about the fact that they don't trust the owners and for good reason.

If you were looking for a new car but there was only one dealership in town and you felt they were looking to rip you off, would you let them rip you off even though you could afford it or would you look for other alternatives? The NHL players are looking for other alternatives.

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10-31-2004, 12:02 PM
  #46
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BlackRedGold
If he's so concerned, he should try getting a job somewhere else at a lower level.
He shouldn't have to be concerned; the only reason he has been put in this position is because of the lockout. It has nothing to do with him being inferior or superior to the NHL players. They've simply moved in and took his job, and when they're able to return to the NHL, they'll move back. Why should he be put in a position where he's still at the mercy of the NHL?

Quote:
Originally Posted by BlackRedGold
Because the calibre of play in these leagues has improved due to the availability of NHL players and he's not good enough to play. Doesn't the team have the responsibility to its fans to put the best possible team on the ice?
Sure they do. But if these fans think the NHL players are going to stay after the lockout, they're sadly mistaken and being left with nothing but false hope. Do you think the players really care about the respective cities they're playing in, especially those born outside of European nations?

Quote:
Originally Posted by BlackRedGold
And he should worry about his job security even without the NHL players. He's getting older and there will be younger players from North America and Europe looking to take his job away.
He's only had to worry about job security because the NHL players decided to come in and take his, and others jobs. If you're working in a corporate office making a modest 55,000-dollar salary and some other employee from another company who is amidst a contract negotiation with his company all the while making 350,000 dollars decides he needs to work during his downtime, swoops in and takes your job. You're honestly telling me you'd swallow your pride and say, "well he's better then I am, so I better just shake it off." No. You dragon-kick his ass.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BlackRedGold
For the players it isn't about the money. It is about the fact that they don't trust the owners and for good reason.
The players work for the owners, not the other way around.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BlackRedGold
If you were looking for a new car but there was only one dealership in town and you felt they were looking to rip you off, would you let them rip you off even though you could afford it or would you look for other alternatives? The NHL players are looking for other alternatives.
They're not looking for other alternatives. Another alternative would mean they'd station themselves in Europe after the lockout. They'll all come back to the NHL where the money flows like water.

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10-31-2004, 12:34 PM
  #47
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Originally Posted by BG
Why should he be put in a position where he's still at the mercy ...
why shouldnt he be ? who else has a guaranteed job in this world ? besides he is in a profession where you are treated as a chattel, this should come as no surprise to him.

business's make decisions every day to upgrade talent, no big deal. Hirsch should quit whining.

dr

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10-31-2004, 12:39 PM
  #48
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Originally Posted by DementedReality
why shouldnt he be ? who else has a guaranteed job in this world ? besides he is in a profession where you are treated as a chattel, this should come as no surprise to him
He has nothing to do with the moaning and groaning of the NHL and their CBA negotiations, nor does any other player in Europe. The NHL players have simply dispersed their problems on an international scale. He's only lost his job because of the selfishness of the NHLPA.

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10-31-2004, 12:40 PM
  #49
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BG
He's only had to worry about job security because the NHL players decided to come in and take his, and others jobs. If you're working in a corporate office making a modest 55,000-dollar salary and some other employee from another company who is amidst a contract negotiation with his company all the while making 350,000 dollars decides he needs to work during his downtime, swoops in and takes your job. You're honestly telling me you'd swallow your pride and say, "well he's better then I am, so I better just shake it off." No. You dragon-kick his ass..
you have no idea ... if my company hires someone better than me, its a great opportunity to
a) see the company do better .. but even more importantly ..
b) to learn from someone who knows more than I !!

you dont dragon kick his ass, you embrace his/her presence, because
a) you are good yourself and you know that if this guy is *better* you dont want him on the other team, you want him on yours and you want to learn from him
or
b) if you are so bad that a medicore person can take your job, why should the company care if it upsets you .. dont let the door hit you on the way out.

are you that crappy at your job that you dont think the company would value you enough to find a place for you even if they have replaced you with someone better ? if you are, i suggest you start to provide a value to the company that cannot be replaced or you will never have job security .. i knwo for a fact my company would not want me in the hands of the competition, you shuold strive for that kind of job security.

stop fearing and start embracing and you will find that job security too !

lol

dr

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10-31-2004, 12:43 PM
  #50
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BG
But if these fans think the NHL players are going to stay after the lockout, they're sadly mistaken and being left with nothing but false hope.
You'd be hard pressed to find a European fan under that impression.

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