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Kulemin to EDM in the off-season

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Old
02-19-2012, 07:34 PM
  #51
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Originally Posted by Hurt View Post
Lol. He hasn't played with Kessel in over 2 years. Just shows that maybe people should learn things about a player before commenting. Just makes you look stupid.
Why are you surprised by this?

95% of HF posters just look up a stat sheet to gain information on a player that's not on their team.

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02-19-2012, 07:34 PM
  #52
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Originally Posted by Yeah15 View Post
Yeah, no reason to trade a player when he's at his lowest value, I understand that. But what I don't understand is how he has more value than players like Gagner, Smid, Whitney, or Hemsky.
He has more value to us, yes..

Ganger? Small 2nd line C; Got lots of those, we need more size in the top six.

Smid & Whitney? Defenseman, we don't need anymore of those.

Hemsky? Injury riddled one dimensional winger.. No thanks

Is it really that hard to understand?

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02-19-2012, 07:34 PM
  #53
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Originally Posted by vezna View Post
If the oilers are drafting Grigorenko and not a defenseman, they might as well just keep their picks instead of wasting it on Kulemin because they'll be a lottery team again next year.
18 year old dmen make that much of a difference. Strange. Here I was thinking that Dmen take longer to develop.

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02-19-2012, 07:35 PM
  #54
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Originally Posted by vezna View Post
Yeah you're right. I should've said the next few years instead of next year.
Regardless, when you're drafting that high, you draft by BPA. If the Oilers scouts deem Grigorenko the better player (which seems to be the consensus) then I would be pissed if they went with Murray. You take the player that has more value, every time. The Oilers aren't going to be a stanley cup contending team over the next few years. They have that time to figure out which players fit in best with the team, and from there they'll be able to trade assets from their strengths to best fill in their weaknesses. If you have no defense but you could have Malkin or Hedman, who do you take? You take Malkin every time, and then trade other substantial pieces in your line-up to get defense after that.

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02-19-2012, 07:38 PM
  #55
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Originally Posted by khennig16 View Post
He has more value to us, yes..

Ganger? Small 2nd line C; Got lots of those, we need more size in the top six.

Smid & Whitney? Defenseman, we don't need anymore of those.

Hemsky? Injury riddled one dimensional winger.. No thanks

Is it really that hard to understand?
It is hard to understand that a player that is apparently only worth 2-3 million is worth more than the aforementioned players who are all going to be earning contacts more than 3 million in the near future. And please, please don't reply with how Kulemin is going to light it up next year, because all signs point to no. Maybe if he were to play with Kessel again, but I highly, highly doubt that.

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02-19-2012, 07:38 PM
  #56
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Originally Posted by KIRK View Post
I'm loathe to ask questions as a Penguins fan, because I know the black hole where our conversations tend to go (so, let's not even go there, because we've all gone round and round on that one for two years). By the same token, I'll spare you the Kennedy + Tangradi or Tangradi + 2nd horse**** and just ask:

Is a 1st straight up for Kulemin something that could get it done? Or a 1st + Tangradi? Or Beau Bennett (who, unlike Tangradi, is a blue chip playmaking sniper prospect who is supposed to go pro after this second college season)?

Or, is it players? Kunitz? A defenseman (thinking Michalek) for your second pair?

Or, is Kulemin only going as part of a package for an upgrade?
Realistically, he's going to only go for an upgrade. The Leafs cannot afford to sacrifice size up front. He's having a down year, but even if he wasn't, they'd still be looking for size. A team in that situation doesn't trade their strongest forward.

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Originally Posted by Yeah15 View Post
It is hard to understand that a player that is apparently only worth 2-3 million is worth more than the aforementioned players who are all going to be earning contacts more than 3 million in the near future. And please, please don't reply with how Kulemin is going to light it up next year, because all signs point to no. Maybe if he were to play with Kessel again, but I highly, highly doubt that.
Is it hard to understand that we don't want those players at $3m+? Is it hard to understand that the elements which Kulemin brings to the game (size, board work, and skill) are currently a major deficiency for the Leafs... while the elements of the game that those players bring is not?

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02-19-2012, 07:41 PM
  #57
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Originally Posted by Yeah15 View Post
It is hard to understand that a player that is apparently only worth 2-3 million is worth more than the aforementioned players who are all going to be earning contacts more than 3 million in the near future. And please, please don't reply with how Kulemin is going to light it up next year, because all signs point to no. Maybe if he were to play with Kessel again, but I highly, highly doubt that.
Ever heard of an off-year? He actually had a lot of friends involved in the Lokomotiv crash that happened this past summer. Very well could be a big part why Kulemin hasn't had an offensive touch this year. And lol @ you on that Kessel comment, it just shows that you have no ****ing clue what you're talking about. He scored his 30 goals with Grabo & Mac last year.

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02-19-2012, 07:41 PM
  #58
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Originally Posted by seanlinden View Post
Realistically, he's going to only go for an upgrade. The Leafs cannot afford to sacrifice size up front. He's having a down year, but even if he wasn't, they'd still be looking for size. A team in that situation doesn't trade their strongest forward.
That's pretty much what I figured, and it's why I tried to be respectful in asking the question.

Over the summer, if Burke doesn't want to make the investment, I could see the picks/prospects (good caliber, not the **** most people offer) getting it done.

At the same time, I'm not sure what Kulemin's value is in an 'upgrade' package.

That's why I asked about names like Kunitz or Michalek. I don't think Shero would move either one, but I'm curious if Burke could end up going that direction.

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02-19-2012, 07:45 PM
  #59
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Originally Posted by khennig16 View Post
Ever heard of an off-year? He actually had a lot of friends involved in the Lokomotiv crash that happened this past summer. Very well could be a big part why Kulemin hasn't had an offensive touch this year. And lol @ you on that Kessel comment, it just shows that you have no ****ing clue what you're talking about. He scored his 30 goals with Grabo & Mac last year.
Off year or not, Leaf fans are still expecting him to be paid 2-3 million, so seriously give me a reason as to how his value is any more than that? You can't, because that's legitimately what Leaf fans feel his value is around. Which isn't anything significant, I don't see how that's hard to understand. And, whoops, not Kessel, guess it was Grabovski and MacArthur, who are those two players playing with this year? Is it with Kulemin?

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02-19-2012, 07:46 PM
  #60
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Originally Posted by Yeah15 View Post
It is hard to understand that a player that is apparently only worth 2-3 million is worth more than the aforementioned players who are all going to be earning contacts more than 3 million in the near future. And please, please don't reply with how Kulemin is going to light it up next year, because all signs point to no. Maybe if he were to play with Kessel again, but I highly, highly doubt that.
If those players were are worth as much as you think maybe Edmonton wouldn't be in contention for the worst team in the league. Oilers can't blame injuries forever.

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02-19-2012, 07:47 PM
  #61
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Originally Posted by seanlinden View Post
Is it hard to understand that we don't want those players at $3m+? Is it hard to understand that the elements which Kulemin brings to the game (size, board work, and skill) are currently a major deficiency for the Leafs... while the elements of the game that those players bring is not?
Valid argument, I still maintain that these players definitely have more value than what Kulemin brings to the table. And as to the argument that you don't need more defensemen, have you never heard of upgrading your roster?

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02-19-2012, 07:49 PM
  #62
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Originally Posted by Nathan311 View Post
If those players were are worth as much as you think maybe Edmonton wouldn't be in contention for the worst team in the league. Oilers can't blame injuries forever.
They're definitely worth as much as I think they are, those are the only players on the team besides Hall, RNH and Eberle that I feel have any value whatsoever. You do realize there's more to a team than 7 players right? Don't know where I've blamed injuries at all, so cool comment?

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02-19-2012, 07:49 PM
  #63
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Originally Posted by jtmoney67 View Post
Did you notice everyone ignored your ridiculous comment? I'm sure you've become accustomed to that though.
Honestly, perhaps other than him saying that Kulemin won't be in blue and white long term, what was wrong with that comment? His valuation seems to be spot on. He isn't worth a top-10 pick and he's likely not a marquee guy that GM's would be aiming for.

Edmonton makes no sense for a deal like this considering what we've already got at LW.

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02-19-2012, 07:49 PM
  #64
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Originally Posted by Yeah15 View Post
Off year or not, Leaf fans are still expecting him to be paid 2-3 million, so seriously give me a reason as to how his value is any more than that? You can't, because that's legitimately what Leaf fans feel his value is around. Which isn't anything significant, I don't see how that's hard to understand. And, whoops, not Kessel, guess it was Grabovski and MacArthur, who are those two players playing with this year? Is it with Kulemin?
Kulemin has played 90% of the season with Grabo & Mac, yes.

I don't really understand what you're trying to prove? Your basing his value of off what he is going to make this summer? Umm okay, my point was that their is nobody on your team that I would want to trade Kulemin for, excluding the obvious. After the big 3 your talent drops off BIG TIME. So their is no point. & Frankly, I think it's kind of good that Kulemin is having an off year, because if he wasn't and say he was going for another 30-30 season again. He'd be looking at 4-4.5m a yr, and that would put the Leafs management in a situation having to choose between Kulemin and Grabovski.

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02-19-2012, 07:53 PM
  #65
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Originally Posted by khennig16 View Post
Kulemin has played 90% of the season with Grabo & Mac, yes.

I don't really understand what you're trying to prove? Your basing his value of off what he is going to make this summer? Umm okay, my point was that their is nobody on your team that I would want to trade Kulemin for, excluding the obvious. After the big 3 your talent drops off BIG TIME. So their is no point. & Frankly, I think it's kind of good that Kulemin is having an off year, because if he wasn't and say he was going for another 30-30 season again. He'd be looking at 4-4.5m a yr, and that would put the Leafs management in a situation having to choose between Kulemin and Grabovski.
Agree to disagree then. However I feel that there are definitely a few pieces on the Oilers behind the kids that have much more value than Kulemin, a player that is worth less than 3 million to the Leafs.
Edit: Anyways, I love how Kulemin, a player who has only topped 15-16 goals once in his career is considered to be having an "off-year" when he's closing in roughly on those numbers. I don't see how you could possibly argue that this year is the aberration, when his previous numbers look a lot more similar to this year than to last year.

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02-19-2012, 07:55 PM
  #66
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Originally Posted by KIRK View Post
That's pretty much what I figured, and it's why I tried to be respectful in asking the question.

Over the summer, if Burke doesn't want to make the investment, I could see the picks/prospects (good caliber, not the **** most people offer) getting it done.

At the same time, I'm not sure what Kulemin's value is in an 'upgrade' package.

That's why I asked about names like Kunitz or Michalek. I don't think Shero would move either one, but I'm curious if Burke could end up going that direction.
The thing is -- it's not going to require a mega-investment either. He's probably going to end up with less than 10 goals this year. He'll sign his $2.35m qualifier, and they'll play the wait & see game. If he starts slowly again and the Leafs manage to get bigger between now and then, they'll probably look at trading him.

As for his upgrade value, it's really tough to put an exact marker on it. You'd have to find a GM that REALLY believes in Kulemin, but not in the forward with size that they are trading, in order to get him out of Toronto.

As for those 2 guys, Michalek I don't see as a possibility. Burke's interest in adding more money to the blueline has to be zero. He's gotta get bigger up front so that the talent on the blueline can be more effective. Kunitz is certainly intriguing, but at almost $4m, that's an increase that may not be worthwhile with the Leafs having "bigger fish to fry".

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Originally Posted by Yeah15 View Post
Valid argument, I still maintain that these players definitely have more value than what Kulemin brings to the table. And as to the argument that you don't need more defensemen, have you never heard of upgrading your roster?
As a strict on-ice contribution to the average team? Sure... but with cap hit considered, and value to the Leafs, no they don't. Toronto's need is forwards with size who excel on the cycle game, and we'll pay a premium for that, just like we'll forego a premium to keep Kulemin.

Yeah, we've heard of upgrading our roster. We're presently trying to do that up front so that we can make better use of our underachieving defencemen.

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Originally Posted by Yeah15 View Post
Agree to disagree then. However I feel that there are definitely a few pieces on the Oilers behind the kids that have much more value than Kulemin, a player that is worth less than 3 million to the Leafs.
Edit: Anyways, I love how Kulemin, a player who has only topped 15-16 goals once in his career is considered to be having an "off-year" when he's closing in roughly on those numbers. I don't see how you could possibly argue that this year is the aberration, when his previous numbers look a lot more similar to this year than to last year.
Really? Who's going to be more valuable to the Leafs and cost equal to or less than $2.35m?

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02-19-2012, 07:55 PM
  #67
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Originally Posted by zeus3007 View Post
Then I'd love to have him. I'd expect the price is pretty high though, and I don't think the Oilers pay a high price in trade for a winger. A top pair defenseman or second line center, sure, but we're pretty set at wing.
Your 2nd line centre is RNH.

Done.

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02-19-2012, 07:58 PM
  #68
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I can't really see a deal being reached here. The Leafs would want to move Kulemin in a package for an upgrade but the Oilers do not want to move one of the big three, and rightfully so.

I don't want to move Kulemin while his value is low and even without contributing much to the score sheet, his defensive play is a welcome sight here. It seems Kulemin's offensive woes are confidence related as he has quite a lot of skill and a very good shot which means there is a reasonable chance of him returning to his form from last year, either in whole or in part.

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02-19-2012, 08:00 PM
  #69
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Really? Who's going to be more valuable to the Leafs and cost equal to or less than $2.35m?
I agree entirely, no one on the Oilers roster is going to be able to do that for that cheap. Never was I arguing that, I was merely arguing that there were players on the Oilers roster that have more value than Kulemin, but they all make more than $3 million.

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02-19-2012, 08:01 PM
  #70
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I agree entirely, no one on the Oilers roster is going to be able to do that for that cheap. Never was I arguing that, I was merely arguing that there were players on the Oilers roster that have more value than Kulemin, but they all make more than $3 million.
Then they don't have more value than Kulemin... value is a function of contribution AND cap hit.

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02-19-2012, 08:03 PM
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Agree to disagree then. However I feel that there are definitely a few pieces on the Oilers behind the kids that have much more value than Kulemin, a player that is worth less than 3 million to the Leafs.
Edit: Anyways, I love how Kulemin, a player who has only topped 15-16 goals once in his career is considered to be having an "off-year" when he's closing in roughly on those numbers. I don't see how you could possibly argue that this year is the aberration, when his previous numbers look a lot more similar to this year than to last year.
Do I really need to explain player development to you? How could a player ever get better right? This is only his fourth season, but you're right he is destined to have a mediocre career. And you know what, if he does stay a 40 point player, then the Leafs have no problem sticking him on our third line long term. He brings it every night, and is one of our greatest forecheckers. No need to sell him for picks and prospects, not everybody gets rage ons for picks and prospects like the Oilers do.

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02-19-2012, 08:03 PM
  #72
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Originally Posted by seanlinden View Post
Then they don't have more value than Kulemin... value is a function of contribution AND cap hit.
There's a reason that the players I mentioned would not agree to a contract anywhere close to that number. It's because they have much more worth than that. I honestly have no clue how you're going to be able to argue that.

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02-19-2012, 08:06 PM
  #73
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Originally Posted by seanlinden View Post
The thing is -- it's not going to require a mega-investment either. He's probably going to end up with less than 10 goals this year. He'll sign his $2.35m qualifier, and they'll play the wait & see game. If he starts slowly again and the Leafs manage to get bigger between now and then, they'll probably look at trading him.

As for his upgrade value, it's really tough to put an exact marker on it. You'd have to find a GM that REALLY believes in Kulemin, but not in the forward with size that they are trading, in order to get him out of Toronto.


As for those 2 guys, Michalek I don't see as a possibility. Burke's interest in adding more money to the blueline has to be zero. He's gotta get bigger up front so that the talent on the blueline can be more effective. Kunitz is certainly intriguing, but at almost $4m, that's an increase that may not be worthwhile with the Leafs having "bigger fish to fry".



As a strict on-ice contribution to the average team? Sure... but with cap hit considered, and value to the Leafs, no they don't. Toronto's need is forwards with size who excel on the cycle game, and we'll pay a premium for that, just like we'll forego a premium to keep Kulemin.

Yeah, we've heard of upgrading our roster. We're presently trying to do that up front so that we can make better use of our underachieving defencemen.



Really? Who's going to be more valuable to the Leafs and cost equal to or less than $2.35m?
Good stuff. Just two things as a FYI:

1. I'm not sure that his next deal will be that easy. His performance last year is 5M caliber in terms of how arbitrators look at it. His performance this year is 2M caliber. I'm not sure he'd say 'let's do another year or two at what I'm making now'. Personally, I see 2 yrs, 6M on the low end being the number if it went to arbitration.

2. Your point about a GM believing in Kulemin is what I asked about the 1st. I know Burke loves his 1st round picks. If one of the annual deadline deal attempts comes to fruition this time (Nash, Carter, Statsny caliber), then that guy will be in Kulemin's place on the second line and likely would cost a 1st as part of the return. I'm sure you can just slot Kulemin to L3, or in that case would recouping the 1st be more valuable to Burke?

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02-19-2012, 08:06 PM
  #74
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Do I really need to explain player development to you? How could a player ever get better right?
True that, however, can you tell me, how could a player ever have one, really good year right? As of right now, if you look at Kulemin's career, last year looks more like the abberation than this year looking like his off-year.
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Originally Posted by khennig16 View Post
This is only his fourth season, but you're right he is destined to have a mediocre career. And you know what, if he does stay a 40 point player, then the Leafs have no problem sticking him on our third line long term. He brings it every night, and is one of our greatest forecheckers. No need to sell him for picks and prospects, not everybody gets rage ons for picks and prospects like the Oilers do.
Neither of us know this, neither of us know what is going to happen with his career. What do know from his stat line he had one great year, followed by a drastic fall from those numbers. The numbers he's putting up this year mirror quite closely to his first few years in the league. I'd say that's more telling to his actual value than to one year where he lit the league up. And where have I mentioned that you should be trading him for picks and prospects? Why do you have to take a shot at the Oilers, are you getting upset so that you have to troll? Embarrassing.

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02-19-2012, 08:07 PM
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Your 2nd line centre is RNH.

Done.
Nuge is first line center. Gagner is our current second line center. He's fine for now, but not ideal.

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