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Koivu (Returning To Lineup 3/22)

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Old
02-22-2012, 11:02 PM
  #176
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Originally Posted by rynryn View Post
i think the focus was on drafting and developing our own "good" players rather than bringing them in. I didn't mean necessarily finding Latendresse's back-up plan in free agency; a player of his calibre is going to cost more than Gui, and we'd probably have to trade for one of those. So not only do we have that $4m+ cap hit we'd be giving up other assets to take it on.
I just don't like starting the year doubting very much if two top six forwards will play over half a season respectively and adding on top of it the inevitable injuries to our other top sixers. Coyle and Larsson will be available as call-ups at the very least, but that's the same sort of gamble as counting on Scandella to be a top four guy this year would have been.
This! Don't get me wrong, I'd love to have Butch and Lats back and healthy. But we can't go through this again next year. If we're gonna take the risk, it better be a low offer with Lats. He should understand. Sign a 1-year deal and prove he can be healthy a good part of the season and then revisit contract talks the following summer.

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02-22-2012, 11:05 PM
  #177
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And he came to camp in shape and in full beast mode. Then got boarded. Can't hold that against him. If we shut him down until next year (which is most likely the case) he should be good to go.

And, it's not big money to get him for a year. We'll have cap room next year. It's very low risk, and very high return.
I'm not holding that against him. Just like I'm not holding a broken finger or shoulder injury on Koivu. But as we've learned with Butch, concussions are a b****. And now Lats has a heavy history with it. He may start off next year perfectly fine only to get hit during the second week of the season. And then all those symptoms come back. It doesn't take much to knock out a guy who's had a history with them. We need to know that he can handle some hard play throughout the year without getting thrown back to square one before making a serious commitment.

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02-22-2012, 11:11 PM
  #178
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The way I see it, we should probably build our team for next year assuming no Bouchard or Lats, but at the same time we should qualify Lats because if he DOES come back, we can just send someone back down to Houston, and Lats makes us that much better.

Hope for the best, but prepare for the worst.

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02-22-2012, 11:21 PM
  #179
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Hope for the best, but prepare for the worst.
And there is the 2012-13 Minnesota Wild Slogan.

Instead of "we will fight till the end, we will stand and defend"....it shall now be, "we will hope for the best, but prepare for the worst"

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02-22-2012, 11:27 PM
  #180
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Originally Posted by OpRedDawn View Post
And he came to camp in shape and in full beast mode. Then got boarded. Can't hold that against him. If we shut him down until next year (which is most likely the case) he should be good to go.

And, it's not big money to get him for a year. We'll have cap room next year. It's very low risk, and very high return.
Exactly. Once he comes back from the concussion healthy and without rushing, he's about as much of an injury risk as anyone else on the team.

The thing that really confuses me is people saying we should lowball him instead of taking the QO. We have cap space. The extra $1M isn't even close to worth the risk of letting him go UFA.

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02-22-2012, 11:30 PM
  #181
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This! Don't get me wrong, I'd love to have Butch and Lats back and healthy. But we can't go through this again next year. If we're gonna take the risk, it better be a low offer with Lats. He should understand. Sign a 1-year deal and prove he can be healthy a good part of the season and then revisit contract talks the following summer.
yeah, as much as it sucks, i don't think we can bring back both butch and lats. simply too much risk. GMCF just cannot afford what happened this year to happen again. its too bad cause they are both very good, unique players, but the wild need to manage their risk. I dunno though, maybe we are still in a position where we just have to take that risk.

Personally i would probably choose lats over butch because of his natural goal scoring ability but contract status will probably dictate otherwise.

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02-22-2012, 11:32 PM
  #182
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Exactly. Once he comes back from the concussion healthy and without rushing, he's about as much of an injury risk as anyone else on the team.

The thing that really confuses me is people saying we should lowball him instead of taking the QO. We have cap space. The extra $1M isn't even close to worth the risk of letting him go UFA.
keep in mind that the wild are also a business. real salary matters too.

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02-22-2012, 11:34 PM
  #183
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Exactly. Once he comes back from the concussion healthy and without rushing, he's about as much of an injury risk as anyone else on the team.

The thing that really confuses me is people saying we should lowball him instead of taking the QO. We have cap space. The extra $1M isn't even close to worth the risk of letting him go UFA.
Except when it comes to concussions. We've had a lot of guys get smacked in the head. They may miss some time, but recover. Then there's Butch. Granted, that hit was hard enough where it'd send a guy (without a concussion history) out long term, but still...you have to wonder how much of his previous concussion is a factor. He was out a looooooong time before returning. Those type of injuries are so hard to get past. And I just fear that Lats may go down the same road.

And again, I would gladly welcome back a healthy Lats. I'm just terrified of having both him and Butch taken out in the first month or two and repeating this season. Although to be honest, I think Butch is done. If he isn't, he will be by this time next season. Cheap shots are only getting worse. Discipline is a joke. And someone will clip again.

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02-22-2012, 11:42 PM
  #184
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Thats why you build the roster assuming neither comes back healthy. That way if you do get one back, even for only a short time, your team is improved over that span.

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02-22-2012, 11:46 PM
  #185
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Originally Posted by llamapalooza View Post
Exactly. Once he comes back from the concussion healthy and without rushing, he's about as much of an injury risk as anyone else on the team.

The thing that really confuses me is people saying we should lowball him instead of taking the QO. We have cap space. The extra $1M isn't even close to worth the risk of letting him go UFA.
really? I was under the impression that one became progressively more prone to concussion symptoms the more times one had been concussed. in general I mean--not specific to hockey.

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02-22-2012, 11:59 PM
  #186
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My understanding is that the brain does recover, but very slowly. It might actually take several months after any symptoms subside. That's why I worry about players having multiple serious concussions in a short period of time (1-2 years).

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02-23-2012, 12:00 AM
  #187
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Thats why you build the roster assuming neither comes back healthy. That way if you do get one back, even for only a short time, your team is improved over that span.
building the roster assuming neither is going to play means signing two top six forwards...that's expensive. Can't do anything about Bouchard's contract. (not sure how insurance would work if he gets bumped down the totem pole which he would if we signed Suter or Parise or traded for a top six winger getting overpaid (which is probably all that would be available). If either or both come back you're sending a kid (if eligible--Bulmer wouldn't have been last year, Phillips and Brodin won't be next year) down to Houston or waiving someone else. Johnson is almost guaranteed a spot I would think...
Koivu, Heatley, Seto, Granlund, Bouchard, Latendresse, Cullen, Brodz, Johnson, Clutter, Powe, <kassian>,. Am i forgetting anyone? If we offer Lats a deal, that's what we're looking at to start the year. I imagine we're going to carry a tough guy in some capacity with the club so you can write in Kass as the thirteenth forward. That's a pretty *****in' top six, but I seriously doubt two of them are going to stay healthy, starting to have reservations about another doing the same, and one of them is completely untried in the NHL. Who replaces Butch and Big Bear (i mean replace while still expecting us to win)? If they get healthy who do we send down on waivers?

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02-23-2012, 12:02 AM
  #188
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I would qualify Lats but assume Butch is done.

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02-23-2012, 12:05 AM
  #189
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My understanding is that the brain does recover, but very slowly. It might actually take several months after any symptoms subside. That's why I worry about players having multiple serious concussions in a short period of time (1-2 years).
is he going to be able to pass the baseline tests? maybe all this is moot. can he even sign an NHL contract if he has ongoing concussion symptoms?

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02-23-2012, 12:06 AM
  #190
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building the roster assuming neither is going to play means signing two top six forwards...that's expensive. Can't do anything about Bouchard's contract. (not sure how insurance would work if he gets bumped down the totem pole which he would if we signed Suter or Parise or traded for a top six winger getting overpaid (which is probably all that would be available). If either or both come back you're sending a kid (if eligible--Bulmer wouldn't have been last year, Phillips and Brodin won't be next year) down to Houston or waiving someone else. Johnson is almost guaranteed a spot I would think...
Koivu, Heatley, Seto, Granlund, Bouchard, Latendresse, Cullen, Brodz, Johnson, Clutter, Powe, <kassian>,. Am i forgetting anyone? If we offer Lats a deal, that's what we're looking at to start the year. I imagine we're going to carry a tough guy in some capacity with the club so you can write in Kass as the thirteenth forward. That's a pretty *****in' top six, but I seriously doubt two of them are going to stay healthy, starting to have reservations about another doing the same, and one of them is completely untried in the NHL. Who replaces Butch and Big Bear (i mean replace while still expecting us to win)? If they get healthy who do we send down on waivers?
Or we look at having more than just Granlund jump to the NHL.

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02-23-2012, 12:09 AM
  #191
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Or we look at having more than just Granlund jump to the NHL.
Sorry, I was assuming Fletcher planned on assembling a team he expected to win with. I'm just guessing here you mean Larsson and Coyle. So...half of our scoring line personnel are rookies (or the rookies are playing lesser roles and we have grinders in the scoring lines again). that isn't a good plan.

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02-23-2012, 12:12 AM
  #192
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Sorry, I was assuming Fletcher planned on assembling a team he expected to win with. I'm just guessing here you mean Larsson and Coyle. So...half of our scoring line personnel are rookies (or the rookies are playing lesser roles and we have grinders in the scoring lines again). that isn't a good plan.
But it worked so well for our defense this year!

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02-23-2012, 12:14 AM
  #193
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Sorry, I was assuming Fletcher planned on assembling a team he expected to win with. I'm just guessing here you mean Larsson and Coyle. So...half of our scoring line personnel are rookies (or the rookies are playing lesser roles and we have grinders in the scoring lines again). that isn't a good plan.
Was not talking about wrecking our rookies. But considering the potential free agents and what they will cost, we may need to consider some guy from Houston (not the rookies) as a plug for that hole.

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02-23-2012, 08:07 AM
  #194
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i think you can only fully insure the top 4 salaries on your roster? Backstrom Koivu Heatley bouchard?
anyway, there are plenty with higher hits.
Where have you heard that? I'm not fully up on things, but that wouldn't make any sense at all. You can insure anything that an insurance company is willing to sell you a policy on. The issue is that no one will sell you a policy (at anything resembling a sensible rate) for a "concussion prone" player. Nashville effectively paid Toronto to take Lombardi because they couldn't insure his contract. Jarick brought up a good, often overlooked point. This could be a cash issue from Leipold.

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02-23-2012, 08:21 AM
  #195
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RE - Not signing Lats to save the roster spot:

I think a couple people are taking that too literally. It's not that he's not worth a spot, or that you'd try replace him with someone else. The issue is that with Bouchard already a questionmark for the season (and no one is going to touch that contract without being paid off) how can you handle coming into the season with two spots completely in flux? If Lats is on the roster, you need to save room for him to play. The same is true of Bouchard. That means you'll end up with something like this:

Heatley-Koivu-Bouchard
Granlund-Cullen-Lats
Seto-Brodziak-Clutterbuck
Johnson-Powe-[fourth liner]
Kassian

So if we re-sign Lats, then both he and Bouchard end up missing serious time, the roster's immediately reduced to:

Heatley-Koivu-Seto
Granlund-Cullen-Clutterbuck
Johnson-Brodziak-[rookie]
Powe-[rookie/depth forward]-[fourth liner]
Kassian

Suddenly that exciting depth we're all looking forward to is reduced to nothing. We'd likely have either Larsson or Bulmer filling that 3RW slot and a Houston forward (McIntyre?) slipping into the 4C role to start the season. With the way the team is currently set up, if we come into the season with only one of Lats/Bouchard on the roster, we can make the decision whether to find a veteran 3rd/4th liner in free agency or decide to go with a rookie/sophomore prospect. Then we'd have a lineup like this:

Heatley-Koivu-Bouchard
Granlund-Cullen-Seto
Johnson-Brodziak-Clutterbuck
Powe-[PTO guy]-[4th line UFA]

If Bouchard isn't able to play, this moves to:

Heatley-Koivu-Seto
Granlund-Cullen-Clutterbuck
Johnson-Brodziak-[rookie]
Powe-[PTO guy]-[4th line UFA]

That only saps us of a single depth player, and the original roster alignment gives better room for rookies to earn a spot out of camp.

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02-23-2012, 08:50 AM
  #196
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Where have you heard that? I'm not fully up on things, but that wouldn't make any sense at all. You can insure anything that an insurance company is willing to sell you a policy on. The issue is that no one will sell you a policy (at anything resembling a sensible rate) for a "concussion prone" player. Nashville effectively paid Toronto to take Lombardi because they couldn't insure his contract. Jarick brought up a good, often overlooked point. This could be a cash issue from Leipold.
i don't know the details (obviously--thus the question mark) but i'm fairly sure that is the way it works. compounding this is recent rumors saying the insurance industry may pull coverage for already-concussed players because it is costing a fortune. crosby centric of course
Quote:
The NHL requires teams to insure roughly 80 per cent of the value of their top five player contracts through BWD Group, a New York insurance company. Rates have more than doubled from about 2 per cent in 2004 to more than 5 per cent of a contract’s value, Hubbard and others said.
edit...i suppose they could insure more but i don't think many teams do due to the cost. i remember this came up with Gaborik.

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02-26-2012, 05:08 PM
  #197
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His response when asked if he can share info on Koivu's injury...

Russo
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I'm allowed. I just dont want to until I know for sure, which I think I do, haha
Just tell us, Russo!!!

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02-26-2012, 06:31 PM
  #198
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His response when asked if he can share info on Koivu's injury...

Russo


Just tell us, Russo!!!
Russo is trolling us, and I'm not even kidding.

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02-26-2012, 09:50 PM
  #199
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@Russostrib Sorry for another Koivu question but is it possible he re-injured his shoulder?
http://twitter.com/#!/Fel0096/status/173977498336501763
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@Fel0096
http://twitter.com/#!/Russostrib/sta...77673071210497

There we go.

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02-26-2012, 09:52 PM
  #200
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Don't rush him back. Shut him down till it heals properly. He came back way to #$!@ing soon and what good did it do?

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