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[NAS]Suter for [TOR]Schenn on Draft Day

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Old
02-20-2012, 11:28 AM
  #51
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Originally Posted by GaBorat View Post
I wouldn't do it if I'm Nashville (if there is any indication he could be resigned). Schenn has been very poor this year. Even TSN referred to him as a 5/6 dman in their pieces available list.
Nashville can get a superior return to this...


Accepting this would be like NSH accepting MDZ as the only piece LAST YEAR.
Schenn has been a healthy scratch, been prone to errors etc. Not saying he won't be an NHLer b/c he already is, but right now that player is far too risky for Nashville, and there is no way a 1st should be coming from Nashville.
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However, if Nashville is 100% he can't be resigned, he will likely be traded for similar to what Philly traded for Bryz - a third round pick ( a few days before UFA) - and thus, it makes no sense for TO to include Schenn.
You do understand that it's for a few days of negotiating rights for Suter. You think that's worth more than Schenn?

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02-20-2012, 11:37 AM
  #52
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Not really. The defense needs a #1 and to stay consistent. Besides that the third line needs to score. That's about it really. But the Leafs also have a lot of prospects banging at the door. Kadri, Colborne, Frattin could all be on the team by next season.
There are many holes that the Leafs will need to fill, with the first, and probably most important, one being the #1 center hole. They'll also have to address looming issues with the 2nd line with both Kulemin and Grabovski looking for new contracts.

Their 3rd line is utterly atrocious from an offensive standpoint, the defence is so inconsistent that it's, at times, quite laughable, and the goaltending is reasonably adequate but could use some improvement.

Bringing up Colborne, Kadri, and Frattin isn't likely to solve any offensive problem the team is likely to experience going forward.. at least now right now anyway.

And don't forget that they still will have to somehow get rid of several bloated, virtually unnovable contracts that no other team in their right mind would want to take unless said bloated contracts came with some form of serious sweetener (most likely prospects like Colborne. Kadri, and Frattin). If the Leafs can't open up some cap space beyond the value of their expiring contracts, any cap buying power they will have will be severely limited.

And with the type of contract that Suter is most likely looking for, the Leafs probably won't be able to afford it anyway, especially if a cap reduction is looming on the near horizon.

In any event, Burke is going to have to make some hard choices. I just hope that he'll play it smart and not let his fat ego get in the way of good business.

As for the OP's proposal, I don't want to see Luke Schenn get traded because I believe that it's far too early to give up on him. I'm also tired of seeing the Leafs give up on their young players too quickly and all for the sake of trying to win NOW.Tryingnto win NOW has gotten them nothing but continued mediocity. That kind of thinking has to stop now, otherwise they'll never achieve anything significant.


Last edited by EucaLEAFtys: 02-20-2012 at 12:25 PM.
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02-20-2012, 11:42 AM
  #53
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Originally Posted by RogerRoeper View Post
You do understand that it's for a few days of negotiating rights for Suter. You think that's worth more than Schenn?
Did you read what I wrote?

Read it again.

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02-20-2012, 11:43 AM
  #54
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Originally Posted by EucaLEAFtys View Post
There are many holes that the Leafs will need to fill, with the first, and probably most important, one being the #1 center hole. They'll also have to address looming issues with the 2nd line with both Kulemin and Grabovski looking for new contracts.

Their 3rd line is utterly atrocious from an offensive standpoint, the defence is so inconsistent that it's, at times, quite laughable, and the goaltending is reasonably adequate but could use some improvement.

Bringing up Colborne, Kadri, and Frattin isn't likely to solve any offensive problem the team is likely to experience going forward.. at least now right now anyway.

And don't forget that they still will have to somehow get rid of several bloated, virtually unnovable contracts that no other team in their right mind would want to take unless said bloated contracts came with some form of serious sweetener (most likely prospects like Colborne. Kadri, and Frattin). If the Leafs can't open up some cap space beyond the value of their expiring contracts, any cap buying power they will have will be severely limited.

And with the type of contract that Suter is most likely looking for, the Leafs probably won't be able to afford it anyway, especially if a cap reduction is looming on the near horizon.

In any event, Burke is going to have to make some hard choices. I just hope that he'll play it smart and not let his fat ego get in the way of good business.

As for the OP's proposal, I don't want to see Luke Schenn get traded because I believe that it's far too early to give up on him. I'm also tired of seeing the Leafs give up on their young players too quickly and all for the sake of trying to win NOW.Tryingnto win NOW has gotten them nothing but continued mediocity. That knid of thinking has to stop now, otherwise they'll never achieve anything significant.

.
Here's where i disagree. The Leafs biggest issue is the atrocious 3rd line. Right now the Grabovski line is our shutdown line. In this case they are not being used to their full offensive potential as they have major defensive responsibilities. If Burke can assemble a great shutdown 3rd line then that relieves the defensive pressures off our 2nd line which can be used in a more offensive role. That would also alleviate pressure from our D as they'd be used to shutdown opposing team's best players. All in all, shutdown star players will result in better goaltending statistics. So, IMO, 3rd line then first line C then goaltending.

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02-20-2012, 11:49 AM
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Schenn + 1st for Suter and 7th. Schenn has potential to become a great shutdown D. He's not there yet though while Suter is an elite defensemen. Top 10 in the league some fans even consider him better than Weber.

Expensive price for an UFA player? Yes it is, but he's no average Joe. He's a great defenseman, under 30 etc. Defensemen like him are really hard to find.

And if this trade would happen it would be at the draft. Nashville don't want to trade Suter now since he's an integral part of their team. If Suter says he wants out I could see him going to Flyers for JVR + before the deadline although they have already got 2 new defensemen so I doubt it.

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02-20-2012, 11:51 AM
  #56
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RyanCallahan24 View Post
Schenn + 1st for Suter and 7th. Schenn has potential to become a great shutdown D. He's not there yet though while Suter is an elite defensemen. Top 10 in the league some fans even consider him better than Weber.

Expensive price for an UFA player? Yes it is, but he's no average Joe. He's a great defenseman, under 30 etc. Defensemen like him are really hard to find.

And if this trade would happen it would be at the draft. Nashville don't want to trade Suter now since he's an integral part of their team. If Suter says he wants out I could see him going to Flyers for JVR + before the deadline although they have already got 2 new defensemen so I doubt it.
Expensive doesn't even begin to describe it.

Trading a 22 year old NHL dman with solid upside, and a 1st round pick, for negotiating rights to a player, no matter how good, it insane.

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02-20-2012, 11:52 AM
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Originally Posted by RyanCallahan24 View Post
Schenn + 1st for Suter and 7th. Schenn has potential to become a great shutdown D. He's not there yet though while Suter is an elite defensemen. Top 10 in the league some fans even consider him better than Weber.

Expensive price for an UFA player? Yes it is, but he's no average Joe. He's a great defenseman, under 30 etc. Defensemen like him are really hard to find.

And if this trade would happen it would be at the draft. Nashville don't want to trade Suter now since he's an integral part of their team. If Suter says he wants out I could see him going to Flyers for JVR + before the deadline although they have already got 2 new defensemen so I doubt it.
So your suggesting Schenn + 1st, for an unsigned Suter 10 days before July 1st? Erhoff for reference returned a 4th in the same situation.

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02-20-2012, 11:53 AM
  #58
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Originally Posted by RyanCallahan24 View Post
Schenn + 1st for Suter and 7th. Schenn has potential to become a great shutdown D. He's not there yet though while Suter is an elite defensemen. Top 10 in the league some fans even consider him better than Weber.

Expensive price for an UFA player? Yes it is, but he's no average Joe. He's a great defenseman, under 30 etc. Defensemen like him are really hard to find.

And if this trade would happen it would be at the draft. Nashville don't want to trade Suter now since he's an integral part of their team. If Suter says he wants out I could see him going to Flyers for JVR + before the deadline although they have already got 2 new defensemen so I doubt it.
yeah that doesn't happen

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02-20-2012, 11:55 AM
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Expensive doesn't even begin to describe it.

Trading a 22 year old NHL dman with solid upside, and a 1st round pick, for negotiating rights to a player, no matter how good, it insane.
Well maybe you could sit down with Suter before you go ahead with the trade. If he says his price and Toronto says if we trade for you we'll get you the money you want. And Suter says ''okay, sounds good count me in'' A gentleman's agreement.

It's all hypothetical. Flyers would probably offer JVR if they could get Suter at the deadline. Since Suter most definitely would sign with them it wouldn't be a risk for Flyers IMO. Pronger may be done, we don't know. And they got some UFA that would give them the capspace + JVR caphit would lower them with what? $3 mill or something.

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02-20-2012, 11:59 AM
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I could see Nashville sign Suter to an extension. The management have said they will spend money. Although it would be expensive to sign both Weber and Suter longterm (+$7M each) + Rinne's caphit would be alot tied up on a goalie and 2 defencemen. Nashville could use 1 or 2 scoring forwards (sniper/playmaker) and that money could get them that.

We'll see what happens. I'd easily offer Tim Erixon (top D prospect) +1st for Suter as a rental Although we're set on D... and we got a few left handers... Maybe Staal for Nash then?

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02-20-2012, 12:11 PM
  #61
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Originally Posted by RogerRoeper View Post
You do understand that it's for a few days of negotiating rights for Suter. You think that's worth more than Schenn?
If such a deal were to go through, and Suter were to sign with the Leafs, it would be a STEAL for the Leafs.

If, on the other hand, the deal went through and Suter DIDN'T sign with the Leafs, Burke would have egg on his face for grossly overpaying for Suter's rights and many Leaf fans would burn him in effigy for losing Schenn and not getting someone of value who can immediately help the team.

.Such a deal is far too risky for a team like the Leafs (who have very few quality assets in their current possession). Nashville would be better off either re-signing Suter (if at all possible) or trading him at the Draft to a team who can afford him. The Leafs probably couldn't afford his new new up-coming contract anyway.

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02-20-2012, 12:12 PM
  #62
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Nashville is willing to spend close to $70M next year? because that's Toronto's budget - the cap.
That is assuming the cap jumps to $70m next season. As has been said several times over the past couple of months, Nashville's management has either alluded to Nashville spending to or near the cap next year, or they have outright said it (i.e. when Trotz said, during a radio interview, he was informed of this by the owners). Assuming they are not just lying, how close they spend to the cap is going to be dependent on the deals Suter/Weber get and the amount it costs to bring in the rest of the missing pieces. If it costs less, great. If it is necessary to spend to the cap, that's fine, too.

So based on comments made by the guys who run the show, yes, it looks like Nashville will be willing to spend close to $70m next year if that is what the cap ends up being (I really doubt it rises another $5.7m)

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02-20-2012, 12:19 PM
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Originally Posted by EucaLEAFtys View Post
If such a deal were to go through, and Suter were to sign with the Leafs, it would be a STEAL for the Leafs.

If, on the other hand, the deal went through and Suter DIDN'T sign with the Leafs, Burke would have egg on his face for grossly overpaying for Suter's rights and many Leaf fans would burn him in effigy for losing Schenn and not getting someone of value who can immediately help the team.

.Such a deal is far too risky for a team like the Leafs (who have very few quality assets in their current possession). Nashville would be better off either re-signing Suter (if at all possible) or trading him at the Draft to a team who can afford him. The Leafs probably couldn't afford his new new up-coming contract anyway.
Whether or not he signs, it is not a steal for a pending Free Agent, because you will never know if he would have signed a few days later without giving anything up.

The kind of deal you might do, is trade a 1st or a 2nd round pick for his negotiation rights, with a conditional Luke Schenn if he signs before July 1st. But to make that move, you better have your homework done, and know it is a strong possibility.

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02-20-2012, 12:19 PM
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Nashville is certainly the better team right now, but the big question is, are they committed to spending the money required to be a winner?

Now, I'm certainly not saying that TO should be a first choice destination, but going there you at least know they're not going to skimp on spending money. And I'd like to think that a rock solid defensive dman like Suter would go a *long* way to making the Leafs a contender.
That's a hilarious comment considering records of Nashville and Toronto over the last 10 years and the players that have played on each team.

Nashville ain't signing a Jeff Finger or Mike Komisarek or Colby Armstrong for crazy money, but what does that have to do with signing a winner?

Even Toronto has shown they wont spend top dollar to get the best UFAs.

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02-20-2012, 12:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EucaLEAFtys View Post
If such a deal were to go through, and Suter were to sign with the Leafs, it would be a STEAL for the Leafs.

If, on the other hand, the deal went through and Suter DIDN'T sign with the Leafs, Burke would have egg on his face for grossly overpaying for Suter's rights and many Leaf fans would burn him in effigy for losing Schenn and not getting someone of value who can immediately help the team.

.Such a deal is far too risky for a team like the Leafs (who have very few quality assets in their current possession). Nashville would be better off either re-signing Suter (if at all possible) or trading him at the Draft to a team who can afford him. The Leafs probably couldn't afford his new new up-coming contract anyway.
By that logic the Sabres completely STOLE Ehrhoff from the Nucks

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02-20-2012, 12:23 PM
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That is assuming the cap jumps to $70m next season. As has been said several times over the past couple of months, Nashville's management has either alluded to Nashville spending to or near the cap next year, or they have outright said it (i.e. when Trotz said, during a radio interview, he was informed of this by the owners).
I have also heard Nashville's GM/ownership allude to spending money soon. They talked about re-investing their increased revenue into the team. They also added Bret Wilson as an owner and he's alluded to doing what it takes to win, and it's not just about his profits.

The challenge for them is, IMHO, they are going to pay so much extra to Rinne, Suter and Weber, they will be challenged to add a big ticket up front. It's hard for any team to commit to $25-$28 million on 4 players. Rumour has been though, that suter and Parise are good friends and will sell themselves as a package, so I wonder if Parise to Nashville could work.

Personally, I see them adding some younger, cheaper, dynamic forwards who can get the job done on offence but won't cost big money. Maybe someone like Sam Gagner.

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02-20-2012, 12:24 PM
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The leafs would laugh at this. Most I would pay for suters negotiating rights is a second rounder. Why would they give up a young player that is part of their core for the future for someone negotiating rights for a few days?

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02-20-2012, 12:30 PM
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This is more of a fair trade, if Nashville can't get Suter resigned:


Ryan Suter Rights
:preds
4th round pick


Thoughts?

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02-20-2012, 12:52 PM
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This is more of a fair trade, if Nashville can't get Suter resigned:


Ryan Suter Rights
:preds
4th round pick


Thoughts?
I bet a contending team would offer a 2nd at the draft if Nashville put him on the block. A contending team with the money would most likely sign him. Low risk if you're an elite team with the money. I mean why wouldn't Suter sign if he got dealt to a top 5 team who had the money?

Therefore the bidding war would commence. They would talk with Suter + have the money for him so I could easily see a few teams offering something better than a 4th rounder for an elite defensemen.

Since Maple Leafs ain't top 5 (no offence, just stating the facts) it would be a slightly bigger risk.

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02-20-2012, 01:04 PM
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Here's where i disagree. The Leafs biggest issue is the atrocious 3rd line. Right now the Grabovski line is our shutdown line. In this case they are not being used to their full offensive potential as they have major defensive responsibilities. If Burke can assemble a great shutdown 3rd line then that relieves the defensive pressures off our 2nd line which can be used in a more offensive role. That would also alleviate pressure from our D as they'd be used to shutdown opposing team's best players. All in all, shutdown star players will result in better goaltending statistics. So, IMO, 3rd line then first line C then goaltending.
Well, that may be, but the fact remains that the Leafs still have a long way to go before they become a legitimate contender for anything other than continued mediocrity. They'll still have to re-sign both Kulemin and Grabovski if they want to keep their current 2nd line imtact going forward, and that's likely going to be somewhat costly if they can't acquire any suitable upgrades through other means.

If the Leafs are going to continue to go with their current blueprint of top-6/bottom-6, they're going to have their work cut out for them trying to rid themselves of Lombardi-Connolly-Armstrong so that they can turn their current 3rd line into a proper shut-down line. The Leafs' 3rd line simply must replaced if the team wants to seriously improvem but who in their right mind would be willing to take any of these three guys without the Leafs having to add? I can't think of anyone. The only other available options are waiving all three of them either for the purposes of demoting them to the AHL or for the purposes of buying them out (which would shrink the team's available cap space going forward and limiting who they can acquire via free agency).

They'll still need to acquire a lefitimate #1 center and that will be expensive no matter how you cut it, and if the Leafs were to acquire Suter, there probably wouldn't be enough cap space left to deal with all of the other holes on the roster.

Don't get me wrong; I'd love to have a guy like Suter on the Leafs, but I think his price-tag will be more than what the Leafs can safely handle. I also don't want to lose Schenn in the process.

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02-20-2012, 01:37 PM
  #71
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By that logic the Sabres completely STOLE Ehrhoff from the Nucks
If I'm not mistaken, Buffalo only coughed up a middle-of-the-draft draft pick to acqure Ehrhoff's negotiating rights, which was far less than what the OP has suggested that the Leafs should give up for Suter's negotiation rights.

So, in that sense, Ehrhoff, at the time, was a steal for Buffalo. They couldn't have known that he would end up having such a dreadful season this season.

Both Ehrhoff and Suter are high-quality defencemen who would garner good returns in a regular trade; however, we're talking about a player's negotiation rights which just don't carry much value. As such, offering up a team's orster player (kn this case, Luke Schenn) is nothing more than a gross overpayment for such a risky proposition and it's something that Brian Burke would be stupic to offer..

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02-20-2012, 01:48 PM
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If Nashville doesn't take that deal, then Poile should be fired. Suter's rights are worth like a 3rd round pick.

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02-20-2012, 01:49 PM
  #73
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Suter won't sign with a loser like us so no point in wasting an asset.

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02-20-2012, 02:05 PM
  #74
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Whether or not he signs, it is not a steal for a pending Free Agent, because you will never know if he would have signed a few days later without giving anything up.

The kind of deal you might do, is trade a 1st or a 2nd round pick for his negotiation rights, with a conditional Luke Schenn if he signs before July 1st. But to make that move, you better have your homework done, and know it is a strong possibility.
Actually, it's still a steal, but only for the team who is still guaranteed (in this case, Nashville) to have a valuable asset (in this case, Luke Schenn) in their possission at the end of the deal.

It is, however, NOT a steal in any way, shape, or form for the other team (in this case, Toronto) if the player in question (in this case, Ryan Suter) does not sign with said team who, at that point in time, holds his negotiation rights.

As I've stated before, doing the deal suggested by the OP is something that, IMO, the Leafs should not do as it carries far too much risk of blowing up in their faces.

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02-20-2012, 02:06 PM
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i've heard a few times now that a lot of GMs don't care for the "negotiating rights" trades, and that you may see some sort of ruling against that type of thing in the next CBA.

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