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Toronto/Pitt/Columbus

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Old
02-20-2012, 09:56 AM
  #1
mpp9
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Toronto/Pitt/Columbus

To Columbus:

Scott Harrington
Toronto's 2nd


To Toronto:

Eric Tangradi
RJ Umberger


To Pittsburgh:

Nikolai Kulemin
Toronto's 3rd

Columbus gets a top D prospect that showed his ability at the WJ. Pens are loaded on D and can afford to move him. Toronto gets the big forward they've coveted in Umberger and Burke's former 2nd round pick in Tangradi back. Pittsburgh gets a long term solution at wing.

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Old
02-20-2012, 09:59 AM
  #2
Fro
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Umby and Burke = Oil and Water....not gonna happen

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Old
02-20-2012, 09:59 AM
  #3
seanlinden
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There's some serious bad blood between Umberger & Burke... not happening.

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Old
02-20-2012, 10:00 AM
  #4
Ugene Malkin
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CBJ gets fleeced with this.

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Old
02-20-2012, 10:00 AM
  #5
36kap36
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Wait....why does Columbus want to do this again?

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Old
02-20-2012, 10:02 AM
  #6
vezna*
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you're not getting kulemin for that garbage

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Old
02-20-2012, 10:05 AM
  #7
mpp9
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****. Forgot about the ill feelings between Burke and Umberger.

Columbus could retool their D and from what I've hear, nearly everyone there is available.

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Old
02-20-2012, 10:06 AM
  #8
KIRK
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mpp9 View Post
To Columbus:

Scott Harrington
Toronto's 2nd


To Toronto:

Eric Tangradi
RJ Umberger


To Pittsburgh:

Nikolai Kulemin
Toronto's 3rd

Columbus gets a top D prospect that showed his ability at the WJ. Pens are loaded on D and can afford to move him. Toronto gets the big forward they've coveted in Umberger and Burke's former 2nd round pick in Tangradi back. Pittsburgh gets a long term solution at wing.
Toronto gives up Kulemin, a 2nd, and a 3rd and gets Umberger and Tangradi.

Pittsburgh gives up Harrington (the Pens 2nd round pick last year and the one non pure offensive defenseman at the WJC's) and Tangradi for Kulemin and a Toronto 3rd

Columbus gives up Umberger and gets Harrington and a Toronto 2nd

It's probably sort of close in terms of the value, but the return to Columbus is a little light and Pittsburgh probably isn't paying enough . . .

I'm a Pens fan, but I'm also TRYING to be as objective as humanly possible. So, with this deal being predicated on Brian Burke seeing Umberger as a significant upgrade on Kulemin and Umberger being one of the guys the team is willing to move (which I don't know):

To Toronto: Umberger, Tangradi
To Columbus: Kennedy, Harrington, Toronto 2nd
To Pittsburgh: Kulemin, Toronto 4th

In this deal . . .

Columbus gives Umberger and gets Kennedy, Harrington, and Toronto's 2nd.

Pittsburgh gives Kennedy, Harrington, and Tangradi and gets Kulemin and Toronto's 4th.

Toronto gives Kulemin, a 2nd, and a 4th and gets Umberger and Tangradi


As I said, I think it was a little light on the return to the Blue Jackets and a little light on the give from the Pens.

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Old
02-20-2012, 10:13 AM
  #9
mpp9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vezna View Post
you're not getting kulemin for that garbage
Umberger+Tangradi > Kulemin. But Columbus may ask for a more NHL ready prospect.

Anyways. Maybe change the 3rd suitor to Tampa and move Malone to toronto. Tampa would be wise to start making moves for D while Vinny and Marty are in their primes. Switch the D-man to Martin.

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Old
02-20-2012, 10:19 AM
  #10
KIRK
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Originally Posted by seanlinden View Post
There's some serious bad blood between Umberger & Burke... not happening.
O'k, thread involving Umberger over. Let's try a modification:

To Toronto: Carter, Tangradi

To Columbus: Kadri, Kennedy, Niskanen

To Pittsburgh: Kulemin

If memory serves, over the summer Holmgren asked Burke for Kadri and Kulemin for Carter. Burke passed. But, that was off Kulemin's breakout year and before Carter's year in Columbus, of course, which has served to negate both Kulemin's and Carter's values. So, the modified deal becomes Carter for Kadri and Kulemin, but Pittsburgh adds in Tangradi.

Columbus wants rid of Carter and to recoup the value lost in acquiring Carter . . . Coutorier and Voracek. I won't argue that Kadri, Kennedy, and Niskanen equals the upside, but you're talking a former top ten pick who plays center, a winger who, while hurt this year, is coming off a 20 goal season, has shown he can thrive in a second line roll and with extra minutes, and has a 2M cap hit next season, and a defenseman who's recaptured his rookie form in Pittsburgh, can play and is playing right now a second pairing role on a playoff caliber team, but doesn't fit long term given the Pens defensive depth and given his impending RFA status.

For all the times Pittsburgh and Toronto fans talk Kulemin, the talk degenerates quickly because there's no upgrade going back to Toronto. Well, here's a case where an upgrade is going back to Toronto, the Pens get the winger fans want, and Toronto gets a better deal than Carter for Kadri and Kulemin.

I figure you can add in non-first round picks or lower tier prospects to balance this out, but I'm wondering if it's in the ballpark.

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Old
02-20-2012, 10:20 AM
  #11
seanlinden
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mpp9 View Post
Umberger+Tangradi > Kulemin. But Columbus may ask for a more NHL ready prospect.

Anyways. Maybe change the 3rd suitor to Tampa and move Malone to toronto. Tampa would be wise to start making moves for D while Vinny and Marty are in their primes. Switch the D-man to Martin.
If Toronto is taking Malone, who's taking Komisarek?

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Old
02-20-2012, 10:21 AM
  #12
vezna*
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mpp9 View Post
Umberger+Tangradi > Kulemin. But Columbus may ask for a more NHL ready prospect.

Anyways. Maybe change the 3rd suitor to Tampa and move Malone to toronto. Tampa would be wise to start making moves for D while Vinny and Marty are in their primes. Switch the D-man to Martin.
you are not getting kulemin for that garbage.

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Old
02-20-2012, 10:21 AM
  #13
KIRK
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mpp9 View Post
Umberger+Tangradi > Kulemin. But Columbus may ask for a more NHL ready prospect.

Anyways. Maybe change the 3rd suitor to Tampa and move Malone to toronto. Tampa would be wise to start making moves for D while Vinny and Marty are in their primes. Switch the D-man to Martin.
See the explanation for what I suggested above . . . forget Umberger and make it Carter:

To Leafs: Carter, Tangradi

To Blue Jackets: Kadri, Kennedy, Niskanen

To Pens: Kulemin

Use non-first rounders or lower tier prospects to balance it out.

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Old
02-20-2012, 10:22 AM
  #14
seanlinden
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Originally Posted by KIRK View Post
O'k, thread involving Umberger over. Let's try a modification:

To Toronto: Carter, Tangradi

To Columbus: Kadri, Kennedy, Niskanen

To Pittsburgh: Kulemin

If memory serves, over the summer Holmgren asked Burke for Kadri and Kulemin for Carter. Burke passed. But, that was off Kulemin's breakout year and before Carter's year in Columbus, of course, which has served to negate both Kulemin's and Carter's values. So, the modified deal becomes Carter for Kadri and Kulemin, but Pittsburgh adds in Tangradi.

Columbus wants rid of Carter and to recoup the value lost in acquiring Carter . . . Coutorier and Voracek. I won't argue that Kadri, Kennedy, and Niskanen equals the upside, but you're talking a former top ten pick who plays center, a winger who, while hurt this year, is coming off a 20 goal season, has shown he can thrive in a second line roll and with extra minutes, and has a 2M cap hit next season, and a defenseman who's recaptured his rookie form in Pittsburgh, can play and is playing right now a second pairing role on a playoff caliber team, but doesn't fit long term given the Pens defensive depth and given his impending RFA status.

For all the times Pittsburgh and Toronto fans talk Kulemin, the talk degenerates quickly because there's no upgrade going back to Toronto. Well, here's a case where an upgrade is going back to Toronto, the Pens get the winger fans want, and Toronto gets a better deal than Carter for Kadri and Kulemin.

I figure you can add in non-first round picks or lower tier prospects to balance this out, but I'm wondering if it's in the ballpark.
Columbus can do way better than that for Carter, and the last thing that the Leafs need is a shoot-first party-boy centre with a 9 year contract. They could easily sign their hardworking shoot first centre for less than Carter makes, for 3-4 years.

The only guy on Columbus worth talking about from a Toronto perspective is Rick Nash. If the Jackets can do better on him elsewhere, then there's no point in them talking.

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Old
02-20-2012, 10:24 AM
  #15
mpp9
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Originally Posted by seanlinden View Post
If Toronto is taking Malone, who's taking Komisarek?
Toronto can afford the salary difference between Malone/Umby and Kulemin.

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Old
02-20-2012, 10:26 AM
  #16
mpp9
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Originally Posted by vezna View Post
you are not getting kulemin for that garbage.
Cool man.

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Old
02-20-2012, 10:26 AM
  #17
KIRK
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Originally Posted by seanlinden View Post
If Toronto is taking Malone, who's taking Komisarek?
What if the three team deal involved Carter, who I think is Burke's deadline plan B? What if Toronto was giving up Kadri and Kulemin and getting back Carter and Tangradi?

I know we were discussing the idea of how Pittsburgh would value Kulemin yesterday but how there's no upgrade deal there to be had directly with Pittsburgh. Well, you get Carter-- and on terms a little better than Holmgren offered over the summer, before Kulemin's dip-- then does that work?

As for Columbus, they just want to undo the Carter deal. They'd like to get something back in terms of young players that gives them the equivalent or close to the equivalent of what they lost in that deal. Kadri is a former top ten with first line center upside, no? Seems to equate to the #7 overall they gave. And, Kennedy and Niskanen aren't Voracek, but they are a young guy who's scored 20 with a 2M cap hit and an impending RFA defenseman who's rediscovered his rookie game and has played a top four role in Pittsburgh with all their injuries and now Martin's play.

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Old
02-20-2012, 10:26 AM
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seanlinden
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Originally Posted by mpp9 View Post
Toronto can afford the salary difference between Malone/Umby and Kulemin.
Yeah -- that doesn't mean we'd want to in the case of Malone. He's older, definitely on the decline, with a lot of years left.

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Old
02-20-2012, 10:27 AM
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seanlinden
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Originally Posted by KIRK View Post
What if the three team deal involved Carter, who I think is Burke's deadline plan B? What if Toronto was giving up Kadri and Kulemin and getting back Carter and Tangradi?

I know we were discussing the idea of how Pittsburgh would value Kulemin yesterday but how there's no upgrade deal there to be had directly with Pittsburgh. Well, you get Carter-- and on terms a little better than Holmgren offered over the summer, before Kulemin's dip-- then does that work?

As for Columbus, they just want to undo the Carter deal. They'd like to get something back in terms of young players that gives them the equivalent or close to the equivalent of what they lost in that deal. Kadri is a former top ten with first line center upside, no? Seems to equate to the #7 overall they gave. And, Kennedy and Niskanen aren't Voracek, but they are a young guy who's scored 20 with a 2M cap hit and an impending RFA defenseman who's rediscovered his rookie game and has played a top four role in Pittsburgh with all their injuries and now Martin's play.
Even worse. The last thing the Leafs need is Jeff Carter -- they have Mikhail Grabovski who's cheaper and requires less of a long term commitment. As I mentioned, no sense in a deal that involves Toronto & Columbus unless Rick Nash is involved. Other than Nash & Umberger (who's a non-starter), they don't have the strong cycle player or #1 goaltender we need.

It certainly doesn't make sense to use Kulemin to go from Grabovski to Carter.

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02-20-2012, 10:29 AM
  #20
KIRK
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Originally Posted by seanlinden View Post
Columbus can do way better than that for Carter, and the last thing that the Leafs need is a shoot-first party-boy centre with a 9 year contract. They could easily sign their hardworking shoot first centre for less than Carter makes, for 3-4 years.

The only guy on Columbus worth talking about from a Toronto perspective is Rick Nash. If the Jackets can do better on him elsewhere, then there's no point in them talking.
Fair enough. Personally, I wouldn't want Carter either. Just three things:

1. I'd heard that the Leafs had Carter on the plan B/plan C list.

2. If Carter is a shoot first party boy with a big 9 year contract, then I'm not sure how much closer Columbus would get to what they gave to get him.

3. Any team acquiring Carter should plan to play him on the wing, not at center, unless it's in an injury related pinch.

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02-20-2012, 10:29 AM
  #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vezna View Post
you're not getting kulemin for that garbage
Quote:
Originally Posted by vezna View Post
you are not getting kulemin for that garbage.
is that all you have to post?

How bout trying a counter offer. Kulemin has 6 GOALS this year bud. His stock isnt exactly high right now. I can understand why Toronto would not want to sell low, but to suggest prospects like Tangradi, Harrington & draft picks are garbage is stupid

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02-20-2012, 10:30 AM
  #22
KIRK
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Originally Posted by seanlinden View Post
Even worse. The last thing the Leafs need is Jeff Carter -- they have Mikhail Grabovski who's cheaper and requires less of a long term commitment. As I mentioned, no sense in a deal that involves Toronto & Columbus unless Rick Nash is involved. Other than Nash & Umberger (who's a non-starter), they don't have the strong cycle player or #1 goaltender we need.

It certainly doesn't make sense to use Kulemin to go from Grabovski to Carter.
As I said, I was looking at it as Grabovski centering Carter, not Carter being the Leafs second line center.

Hey, doesn't fit, it doesn't fit . . . this is all in good fun, no?

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02-20-2012, 10:30 AM
  #23
seanlinden
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Fair enough. Personally, I wouldn't want Carter either. Just three things:

1. I'd heard that the Leafs had Carter on the plan B/plan C list.

2. If Carter is a shoot first party boy with a big 9 year contract, then I'm not sure how much closer Columbus would get to what they gave to get him.

3. Any team acquiring Carter should plan to play him on the wing, not at center, unless it's in an injury related pinch.
1. This is just speculation on behalf of desparate Leafs fans who want to ignore that Carter is a shoot-first centre.

2. What they gave up for him is irrelevant to any deal.

3. Carter is a horrible winger. He thrives on the open ice you get at centre.

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Old
02-20-2012, 10:32 AM
  #24
KIRK
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Originally Posted by seanlinden View Post
1. This is just speculation on behalf of desparate Leafs fans who want to ignore that Carter is a shoot-first centre.

2. What they gave up for him is irrelevant to any deal.

3. Carter is a horrible winger. He thrives on the open ice you get at centre.
I don't disagree with any of that, except for #2. What Columbus gave up for Carter may be irrelevant in the abstract to a team inquiring about Carter, but it's definitely something that influences how Columbus approaches the talks.

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Old
02-20-2012, 10:32 AM
  #25
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Originally Posted by seanlinden View Post
1. This is just speculation on behalf of desparate Leafs fans who want to ignore that Carter is a shoot-first centre.

2. What they gave up for him is irrelevant to any deal.

3. Carter is a horrible winger. He thrives on the open ice you get at centre.
Carter replaces Grabovski. There. Suddenly we have a need.

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