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The History of Hockey Relive great moments in hockey history and discuss how the game has changed over time.

Nick Lidstrom's place in history

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Old
02-20-2012, 10:08 PM
  #51
Hero
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Orr is 1

then

Shore, Bourque, Harvey, Lidstrom

Pick your order.

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Old
02-20-2012, 10:30 PM
  #52
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Originally Posted by SayNoToStim View Post
Thats true. A few weeks ago I mentioned Chelios' "Montreal Days" and was promptly "corrected" by my friend, telling me that he was a Blackhawk, not a hab, before he was a Wing.

I'm waiting for the day someone is going to correct me and tell me he was Dominant in Detroit before his career died out in Atlanta.
Well, one year (2002 I believe) Chelios finished second for norris votes.

I think we know who the trophy went to...

seriously wtf the top 2 dmen according to votes that year were on the same team.

and he is top 5 like people said probably top 3 in reality.

Nobody beats #4 though.Not yet anyway/

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Old
02-21-2012, 12:03 AM
  #53
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Originally Posted by DeYarmond Edison View Post
4 cups?
2 cups and few art ross wins and 3 harts + 8 norris trophys maybe trumps that? Dont you think? And yeah, he did that in half the career Lidström has done his own. So it really is that Nick only has the longevity.

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02-21-2012, 12:26 AM
  #54
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If you're going to say Orr wouldn't have done as well in a different era, I can easily shoot back Lidstrom wouldn't have done as well on a different team.

Not only has he been able to play with some of the best players of the past 20 years, but he's gotten so many assists off of the boards at the Joe that he may as well send royalty checks to the guys that built them.

The fact is Orr played in the 70s and Listrom played on the Red Wings. It's useless to try and say they would have been worse had those things not been true, because there's nowhere to draw the line, and truthfully, it's just impossible to know. We can only really evaluate the facts that happened, not the wild speculation that didn't.

Orr comes before Lidstrom. It's debatable if anyone else does though.

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Old
02-21-2012, 12:28 AM
  #55
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Orr is the greatest player to ever play hockey,IMO.

I have no clue about the old timers like Shore etc I never saw them play so can't rank them but in my viewing years I think it's between Lidstrom and Borque for 2-3.

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Old
02-21-2012, 12:32 AM
  #56
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#2 all time. Only nostalgics and people that heard a story from thier grandfather and took it for fact would not have him as #2 or #3

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02-21-2012, 12:34 AM
  #57
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Isn't he first non-american captain to lead his team to a cup? Thus ridding of us the 'european captains don't win the cup' crap?

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Old
02-21-2012, 12:54 AM
  #58
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Originally Posted by LyricalLyricist View Post
Isn't he first non-american captain to lead his team to a cup? Thus ridding of us the 'european captains don't win the cup' crap?
Yes to the first question. No to the second. Some Canadians still have the "good ole boys" mentality, which is a shame. I guess some Americans have that "good ole boys (of North America)" mentality as well though.

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02-21-2012, 12:57 AM
  #59
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Doesn't break top 200 on my list

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Old
02-21-2012, 01:33 AM
  #60
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Originally Posted by Sevanston View Post
If you're going to say Orr wouldn't have done as well in a different era, I can easily shoot back Lidstrom wouldn't have done as well on a different team.

Not only has he been able to play with some of the best players of the past 20 years, but he's gotten so many assists off of the boards at the Joe that he may as well send royalty checks to the guys that built them.

The fact is Orr played in the 70s and Listrom played on the Red Wings. It's useless to try and say they would have been worse had those things not been true, because there's nowhere to draw the line, and truthfully, it's just impossible to know. We can only really evaluate the facts that happened, not the wild speculation that didn't.

Orr comes before Lidstrom. It's debatable if anyone else does though.
I don't think anyone here is really saying that Lidstrom is better than Orr. Most of us probably didn't see him play along with Harvey and Shore, so Lidstrom is in there somewhere. It would be interesting to see how Lidstrom would do in that era and how Orr would do in this era, especially with today's doctors.

I personally think Lidstrom is better than Borque, but I'm a Wings fan.

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Old
02-21-2012, 01:41 AM
  #61
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How do you know that? Using that logic you can also infer that you think Gretzky wouldn't either.

Diffrent era =/= doesn't mean less talented. Afforded the same training and knowledge as todays players do, how do you know Orr wouldn't outscore the top forwards in todays game?
I doubt if you literally just transplant Gretzky from back then into today's NHL he's nearly as good as he was.

However, you give him a life's worth of modern day training, doctors, etc and yeah, he's probably even more dominant than he was back when he was playing his best

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02-21-2012, 01:43 AM
  #62
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I know I'm just going to be bashed for this, but Lidstrom is better than Bobby Orr. Points were much more inflated back then. No D-man gets 139 points unless the goalies are trash.

The goalies weren't trash you say?



If you're goalie gave up any of the goals seen in this video, you'd want you're goalie pulled.

And I don't want to hear the whole "point scoring isn't everything" argument, Orr played like he was an extra forward. Great player, FOR HIS TIME.
I find it funny you watch this video and conclude that Orr wasn't that great

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02-21-2012, 02:00 AM
  #63
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He is in my top five and in everyones top 6 (I think so)

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Old
02-21-2012, 02:01 AM
  #64
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JAS 39 Gripen View Post
#2 all time. Only nostalgics and people that heard a story from thier grandfather and took it for fact would not have him as #2 or #3
And people who do actual research.

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Old
02-21-2012, 02:10 AM
  #65
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JasonT26 View Post
I know I'm just going to be bashed for this, but Lidstrom is better than Bobby Orr. Points were much more inflated back then. No D-man gets 139 points unless the goalies are trash.

The goalies weren't trash you say?



If you're goalie gave up any of the goals seen in this video, you'd want you're goalie pulled.

And I don't want to hear the whole "point scoring isn't everything" argument, Orr played like he was an extra forward. Great player, FOR HIS TIME.
Quote:
Originally Posted by JasonT26 View Post
Which makes him a great player, FOR HIS TIME. Lidstrom is still the better D-man.
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Originally Posted by JAS 39 Gripen View Post
#2 all time. Only nostalgics and people that heard a story from thier grandfather and took it for fact would not have him as #2 or #3
Indeed. Hockey seems to be the only sport were progression does not happen, at all. X amount of goal back then makes a player better than one who scores less today, am I right.

Jesse Owens would beat anyone today if he was active now. No? No because you can actually compare the heights he jumped with those of today. Not so much so in hockey.

What one can argue is if someone was more talented (as in naturally gifted) than some players today, that is a legit discussion but hard to actually get any conclusion on. But as trained players no one from back then stands a chance against the athletes of today.

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Old
02-21-2012, 02:11 AM
  #66
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Originally Posted by WarriorOfGandhi View Post
I find it funny you watch this video and conclude that Orr wasn't that great
Did I ever say anything negative about him? I said he was great for his time.

Please watch the video again, or any highlight reel from players from the 70's or 80's and take note on the goalies sitting on their ass every time he scores.

Do you watch baseball? If so, I bet your one of those people who think Babe Ruth would dominate today.



Here it is again

Go to 3:09 in the video and watch as one of the opposing players chooses not to skate backwards, but keeps skating forward while looking behind him as Orr skates coast to coast.

3:19 How about that great effort from the goalie? Throw all your arms in the air like a bird to cover up as much net as you can!

Pause at 4:32 A new way of covering the 5 hole! Criss-Cross your legs!

And those are just some of my favorite moments, feel free to watch the whole thing.

Seriously, this looks like a beer league.

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Old
02-21-2012, 02:24 AM
  #67
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How can you claim he's worse than players who wouldn't even make the NHL of today, like Shore and Harvey?

It's this ridiculous discussion all over again. You can't compare players using the variable "how much they eclipsed their peers" since players were much worse in the past along with the NHL being nowhere near as evenly matched and competitive.

By the same logic you could say that the fastest (100m) in 1960 is better than Usain Bolt since it was a bigger difference between him and his peers than it is between Usain and his - even though Usain Bolt would cross the finish line 15 metres before the guy from the 60s would - if they actually faced eachother exactly as they were during their respective peeks.

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Old
02-21-2012, 02:25 AM
  #68
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1.) Orr
2.) Lidstrom
3.) Harvey
4.) Bourque
5.) Potvin

Tempted to put Red Kelly in here but he played a decent amount of forward also as a shutdown center.

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Old
02-21-2012, 02:49 AM
  #69
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Originally Posted by Nordic View Post
How can you claim he's worse than players who wouldn't even make the NHL of today, like Shore and Harvey?

It's this ridiculous discussion all over again. You can't compare players using the variable "how much they eclipsed their peers" since players were much worse in the past along with the NHL being nowhere near as evenly matched and competitive.

By the same logic you could say that the fastest (100m) in 1960 is better than Usain Bolt since it was a bigger difference between him and his peers than it is between Usain and his - even though Usain Bolt would cross the finish line 15 metres before the guy from the 60s would - if they actually faced eachother exactly as they were during their respective peeks.
Well, let us say you believe this. This is why the question is always "who is greater (which yes, in some ways is a question of talent)?" not "who is better?". The second question, if taken literally, is silly. It will almost ways be players of the current generation. Again, that is given the idea that greatness cannot transcend the game. That greatness cannot adapt, even if given the same advantages.

Mario Lemieux dominated the NHL as a 37-year-old with a bad back. Ray Bourque dominated in the 80s, the 90s, and the early 2001s. Teemu Selanne has dominated the early 90s, the dead-puck-era, and the post-lockout-era. Coffey was an electrifying scorer in many different eras.

In some ways, I think this era of players is a little pathetic. Everyone says that no superstar has risen up because of parity...but IMO, no superstar has risen up because all these current players developed in systems-focused play; no creativity. The ones with some creativity are considered so unique (Datsyuk, for example)...maybe this is a reason that oldies like Selanne can still be so effective?

It wasn't all that long ago that Forsberg, Jagr, and Lindros were tearing up the league. It wasn't all that long ago where there were plenty of star defensemen like Bourque, MacInnis, Fetisov, Chelios, Stevens, Leetch, Coffey, Lidstrom, etc.

I mean, a 41-year-old Lidstrom, an absolute shell of his younger self, is still a Norris candidate. Sidney Crosby goes down, Malkin goes cold, and the Sedins are suddenly the league's top forwards? Claude Giroux is being celebrated as the next Forsberg? Mike Green is this generation's Phil Coffey, apparently? Where is the next Hasek? The next Roy?

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02-21-2012, 02:51 AM
  #70
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I did forget to put my acutal list.

From defensemen I have seen, I would say Orr and Bourque are solid 1 and 2. Lidstrom and Potvin swap between 3-and-4 given my mood.

Of all-time, I would guess from reading what others have written that Harvey has a legit claim to #2. Shore I am less convinced about (it hurts that there is little footage of him).

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02-21-2012, 03:12 AM
  #71
JAS 39 Gripen
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And people who do actual research.
What, reading a magazine from the 30s and basing all your opinions from it?

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Old
02-21-2012, 05:32 AM
  #72
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What, reading a magazine from the 30s and basing all your opinions from it?
For instance. Go to the History section, look for the Eddie Shore thread that recently popped up and look at the amount of work they put into it. That is certainly a better approach than to say he is old/dead now and he played against crap opponents. Relative dominance is always the way to go to determine greatness. And everybody there will admit that there is a bias to players that they saw play.

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02-21-2012, 05:37 AM
  #73
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Originally Posted by JAS 39 Gripen View Post
What, reading a magazine from the 30s and basing all your opinions from it?
And even so, how legit are those sources. To a certain extent of course, but they didn't have the access to the same information as todays writers, nor the footage. A not so wild assumption would be as well that the writers back in the days were slightly more biased as well.

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Old
02-21-2012, 05:41 AM
  #74
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For instance. Go to the History section, look for the Eddie Shore thread that recently popped up and look at the amount of work they put into it. That is certainly a better approach than to say he is old/dead now and he played against crap opponents. Relative dominance is always the way to go to determine greatness. And everybody there will admit that there is a bias to players that they saw play.
Using your primary 'evidence'; dominance over peers,
wouldnt the guy dominating, say, 1 million other defensemen around the globe, be more dominate over his peers than a guy dominating, what, a few houndred canadians on a pond? (Shore)

Im just using your logic here.

You are fighting a battle you cant win here.

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Old
02-21-2012, 06:01 AM
  #75
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Damn those goalies were bad in the olden days!!!

10 year old goalies now a days are better.

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