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Hirsch calls NHLers in Europe 'scabs' ..Is he right ??

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Old
11-01-2004, 02:15 PM
  #26
loveshack2
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Leaf Army
They're locked out.

If they were on strike it would be different. But they didn't choose to be locked out.
Locked out, On strike, they're still in labour negotiations.
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Not the same thing.

Professional hockey is a competitive market.

Being an autoworker is not the same thing. I would tend to believe that workers at a GM plant would be roughly equally skilled and qualified as those working at a Honda plant. Workers aren't competing against each other.
Workers are always competing against each other. That's why it's a job market. If Bob can do a better job than you at half the price then chances are you're going to be fired. The only time it's not is when unions come into play to force things like job security. Something the players in Europe don't have but the NHLPA does.
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I don't see how people can be against NHLers playing Europe, but support the idea of replacement players. To me that shows a bias against the NHLers.
We're going around in circles on this part. I'm saying you cant have it both ways and so are you, we're just coming at it from different angles. It's hyprocritical of the players to go and take jobs in Europe period. If they were actually not playing while they were sitting out then perhaps less people would be in favour of replacement players. But they did do that. So they've made their choice. Bring on the replacements.

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11-01-2004, 02:31 PM
  #27
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Originally Posted by Frankie
same thing it would make every european playing in the nhl.
Exactly.

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11-01-2004, 02:40 PM
  #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Leaf Army
I'm not sure I like these comments by Hirsch. It's like he feels that it's his right to be making big money by playing hockey.

1. He complains that NHL players coming to Europe are stealing jobs. Well didn't he steal someone's job when he left the AHL to play in Europe?
He competed for the job and was better qualified, just like Martin Gerber and David Aebischer left their Swiss team to compete for NHL jobs.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Leaf Army
3. He makes a comment about NHL players going back to their "great salaries". How much do you think Hirsch has made during his hockey career? Probably well over $2 million. Hard to feel too sorry for him.

Not likely. He spent most of his North American career in the minor leagues and very likely never did anything to receive more than a 2 way contract.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Leaf Army
5. Yeah so there's been an influx of NHL players. What about when General Motors lays off 1,500 employees from one of their plants? Those are the people to feel sorry for.
GM has nothing to do with this, so here is an example for you: the town of Sherbrooke has a large population of people employed by the Louisville company that had massive layoffs. Usually at this time of the year they are working around the clocki making 300 000 pucks for every NHL team, not to mention sticks for the players. Feel bad for them. They are the victims of the greedy players and greedy owners. I also have some sympathy for the referees who have no say in what is happening, but they have my respect for not bumping officials out of work in the lower leagues, even though they may eventually replace them in the NHL.

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Originally Posted by Leaf Army
6. I'm pretty sure that Hirsch is getting paid anyway. And if he doesn't like it, he should stop complaining and find another league to play in. Imagine that.
He may be getting paid, but by not playing he might be in danger of losing his job as his skills stagnate. This is the argument used by Colin Patterson and Shean Donovan when they were arguing that it is ok for the NHL players to take jobs in Europe. It is just more selfishness by the million dollar babies and stepping on the toes of the little guys. http://www.canoe.ca/NewsStand/Edmont...01/695600.html

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11-01-2004, 02:41 PM
  #29
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Originally Posted by Frankie
same thing it would make every european playing in the nhl.
Every European who has a contract with another team over there, that is. Which is none of them.

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11-01-2004, 02:46 PM
  #30
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Originally Posted by ULF_55
Exactly.
maybe all hockey players should be forced to stay at home and play in their own countries.

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11-01-2004, 02:49 PM
  #31
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Originally Posted by loveshack2
Hip. O. Crits.

If a bunch of players want to make some money while locked out they should form a boy band and use this name. Very suitable for them.

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11-01-2004, 06:53 PM
  #32
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Originally Posted by FerrisRox
Why should Gerber be "forced" to sit at home? Well, for starters, cause he doesn't need the money, while a guy like Hirsch (and the legions of other North Americans in Europe do.)
It's hard to say for sure, but if you compared Hirsch's career earnings to Gerber's, I bet there wouldn't be as much of a difference as you might believe.

Besides, in real life, when are things like this decided on who needs the money more?

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Originally Posted by FerrisRox
The NHLers are going to Europe literally to keep in shape. They don't give a damn about the teams they are on and plan to leave the second the NHL deal is settled. They are taking the job of a person who is having a CAREER there.
What if the lockout drags on for two years like the NHL is threatening?

I don't think it's unreasonable to think that the players are going to find somewhere to play.

Besides, you only have to go back a couple weeks to see a thread in which everyone was criticizing a guy like Nik Antropov for NOT going back to Europe to stay in shape.

Quote:
Originally Posted by FerrisRox
They push those guys to the sidelines, take the food of their table and out of the mouths of their children.
Wow. A little over dramatic here.

Maybe Hirsch should go talk to the "pregnant wife" of one of the goalies that he beat out for an AHL job one year.

Imagine banking on an AHL salary then losing out and having to scrape by on an ECHL salary.

It's not exactly the same thing, but it's not far off. In that case there was a competition for a job. Hirsch won. In this case he lost a competition for a job.

Quote:
Originally Posted by FerrisRox
They don't do it because they really want to play in Switzerland. They don't do it because they really have a vested interest in making the team better. They don't do it because they are better players and have won the job. They do it because they merely want to stay in 'game shape' and have some fun in Europe during the lockout.
No. They're doing it because their NHL bosses have told them not to show up to work.

They simply CANNOT afford to sit out and not play for up to 2 years. It's not an option.

Quote:
Originally Posted by FerrisRox
Meanwhile guys like Lonny Bohonos, who have made a life in Europe and a career there are pushed out.
I don't blame Hirsch and Bohonos for being upset. I would be too. It's not fair to them.

But short of a new CBA, I don't see any other solution. And I don't think the NHL players are doing anything wrong either.

Also I don't think it's appropriate for a guy like Hirsch to write a whiny article in the paper essentially trying to portray the NHLers going over there as bunch of jerks.

Quote:
Originally Posted by loveshack2
Locked out, On strike, they're still in labour negotiations.
I don't view it as the same thing.

If the players were on strike I would be opposed to them playing in Europe.

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11-01-2004, 07:37 PM
  #33
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Originally Posted by Joey24
Hold on now you have to see where he is comming from. Okay Hirsch going to Euro was under different circumstances then the locked out players going to Euro. For a majority the guys fleeing to euro are the high priced guys who really don't need the money and that's the point Hirsch is making weather or not you agree well that is the point he is making. Now if the shoe was on the other foot and the Owners offered a bunch of euro or college players contracts to come play in the NHL and these guys agreed to come over and play in our league. Well what do you think the NHL players would be doing? They would be crying and moaning and calling them every name in the book but there givin ones. Well don't you think the guys playing in euro are feeling the same way that the NHL players would be feeling if replacement players came to the NHL. I agree 150% with Cory Hirsch and I hope like hell the NHL comes in with replacement players because if the players are willing to go play over seas or in other leagues then the Owners should be able to come in and say well we will bring in replacement players until this dispute is settled. Then they could really send a message to the NHLPA and let them know they are 100% serious on this stance.
I agree.
These NHL players that went over there have a perfectly good league over here in North American and the best one at that. They leave that to go play over there?
Just doesn't make sense to me.

Those guys like Hirsch and Bohonos are over there cause they couldn't crack the best league in the world so they went over there to earn their living. The world is big enough to accomodate all these players that want to play pro.

But these NHLPA guys are already 100 times richer than the aforementioned guys but don't care at all that they are taking someone else's job away, all the while don't want to accept a better job here.

It just keeps proving time and time again why Bettman and the owners stance is a good one. These players come and go in their short hockey life, and in that time they want to collect as much as possible. The League, the owners, and of course the fans is what keeps the league going.

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Old
11-01-2004, 08:19 PM
  #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Leaf Army
No. They're doing it because their NHL bosses have told them not to show up to work.

They simply CANNOT afford to sit out and not play for up to 2 years. It's not an option.
You better tell that to the 500 NHLers who are doing just that.

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11-01-2004, 09:16 PM
  #35
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this all goes to show that solidarity among hockey players and hockey owners is a farce.

they're all selfish and all out for their own personal best interests. not that there's anything terribly wrong with that, but don't turn around and say you're in this for future generations of players.

there is something wrong with players who are locked out going and taking jobs from other players who just happen to be in a different union. aren't unions supposed to back each other and be solid with each other?

there's also something wrong with these owners in europe who are signing these nhlers to contracts that say the nhlers can leave if and when the nhl resumes. they should be solid with their nhl owner counterparts and keeps these guys out.

i don't see why a euro owner would want to sign a guy who has no interest in playing for his club other than to keep in shape while he can't play for his real team. if i was a fan of hc davos, i wouldn't want to see joe thornton and rick nash on the team temporarily, while some guy who actually wants to be part of the team for a long haul and help the team win is out of a job.

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11-01-2004, 09:53 PM
  #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Frankie
this all goes to show that solidarity among hockey players and hockey owners is a farce.

they're all selfish and all out for their own personal best interests. not that there's anything terribly wrong with that, but don't turn around and say you're in this for future generations of players.

there is something wrong with players who are locked out going and taking jobs from other players who just happen to be in a different union. aren't unions supposed to back each other and be solid with each other?

there's also something wrong with these owners in europe who are signing these nhlers to contracts that say the nhlers can leave if and when the nhl resumes. they should be solid with their nhl owner counterparts and keeps these guys out.

i don't see why a euro owner would want to sign a guy who has no interest in playing for his club other than to keep in shape while he can't play for his real team. if i was a fan of hc davos, i wouldn't want to see joe thornton and rick nash on the team temporarily, while some guy who actually wants to be part of the team for a long haul and help the team win is out of a job.
Yeah, what about those players that took a puck for the team the year before? Or sucked up an injury and played for his teammates? And then the next year the player's sacrifices are forgotten for a period of time so that the owners can enjoy some revenues that is coming in due to the NHLers. The Euro Owners are like ***** or hoes, getting used for awhile and don't even mind.

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11-02-2004, 06:42 AM
  #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Frankie
this all goes to show that solidarity among hockey players and hockey owners is a farce.

they're all selfish and all out for their own personal best interests. not that there's anything terribly wrong with that, but don't turn around and say you're in this for future generations of players.

there is something wrong with players who are locked out going and taking jobs from other players who just happen to be in a different union. aren't unions supposed to back each other and be solid with each other?

there's also something wrong with these owners in europe who are signing these nhlers to contracts that say the nhlers can leave if and when the nhl resumes. they should be solid with their nhl owner counterparts and keeps these guys out.

i don't see why a euro owner would want to sign a guy who has no interest in playing for his club other than to keep in shape while he can't play for his real team. if i was a fan of hc davos, i wouldn't want to see joe thornton and rick nash on the team temporarily, while some guy who actually wants to be part of the team for a long haul and help the team win is out of a job.
if you lived there and had a chance to see these stars live in your own country you're telling me you wouldn't go watch? You have an opportunity to see the BEST players in the world now, and you wouldn't go watch because they are only there temporarily? I don't really believe that.

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11-02-2004, 08:03 AM
  #38
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If solidarity is not yet proven dead, the concept of sacrifice certainly is.

Playing in Europe is having your kartoffel and eating it also.

And it does harm to those who would otherwise be playing, and earning, in Europe.

As is the norm, when rich folks collide, the collateral damage is usually working slobs.

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11-02-2004, 08:35 AM
  #39
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Originally Posted by Around in 67
if you lived there and had a chance to see these stars live in your own country you're telling me you wouldn't go watch? You have an opportunity to see the BEST players in the world now, and you wouldn't go watch because they are only there temporarily? I don't really believe that.
well i usually go to hockey games to watch my team, not one or two individuals.

if i'm a davos season ticket holder, i want what's best for davos, and that's not having two guys like thornton and nash on the team temporarily. i can't get too excited about guys who aren't there to help the team win and who could be gone at a moments notice.

and its not like they are averaging 2 or 3 points per game.

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11-02-2004, 09:29 AM
  #40
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Originally Posted by Frankie
well i usually go to hockey games to watch my team, not one or two individuals.

if i'm a davos season ticket holder, i want what's best for davos, and that's not having two guys like thornton and nash on the team temporarily. i can't get too excited about guys who aren't there to help the team win and who could be gone at a moments notice.

and its not like they are averaging 2 or 3 points per game.
so if the NHL brought in replacement workers and none of the current Leafs came back, you would still go pay the price to see them because they are still the Leafs despite the fact there are very few NHL caliber players on the team?

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11-02-2004, 10:43 AM
  #41
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Frankie
well i usually go to hockey games to watch my team, not one or two individuals.

if i'm a davos season ticket holder, i want what's best for davos, and that's not having two guys like thornton and nash on the team temporarily. i can't get too excited about guys who aren't there to help the team win and who could be gone at a moments notice.

and its not like they are averaging 2 or 3 points per game.
but I think that is because North American fans that get to see these great NHL players play all the time would have a different opinion and way of watching the game then the Euro teams .. The fans in Davos seldom if ever get to see Thornton and Nash play and their level of play and skill much be so much higher than many of their team mates ... I think it would be like the Dynasty Oilers in the saying .. I go to watch my team play .. and not noticing or paying attention to someone wearing #99 play particularly when he is putting up 200 point seasons..

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11-02-2004, 10:53 AM
  #42
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I agree with Hirsch.
The NHL players went to Europe and took jobs away from people who play there as their livelyhood. They are taking away peoples careers, and are potentially destroying thier lives by taking away thier source of income.
None of the players who went to Europe need the money, they just 'want to stay in shape'. That is utter BS!! ...they are greedy, they could have easily practiced with a university/college team for free and stayed sharp, and why would they need to be sharp, there is no season to come back to. ...they don't go play in Europe to 'stay sharp' in the off season do they?
...they are nothing more than scabs every last one of them!
But this is just how i see it.
(I also know a guy who just went to Europe to play his first season there because he knows he isnt good enough for the NHL. Thankfully though his team wasn't elite enough for an NHL player to go and steal his job from him)

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11-02-2004, 11:31 AM
  #43
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Originally Posted by The Messenger
I think it would be like the Dynasty Oilers in the saying .. I go to watch my team play .. and not noticing or paying attention to someone wearing #99 play particularly when he is putting up 200 point seasons..
no its not like that at all.

gretzky was part of the oilers dynasty. he was part of the team, playing for the team to win. thornton and nash are not part of the team in davos. they will be gone tomorrow if the lockout is over. they have made it very clear that they are only there for their own selfish reasons. isn't hockey supposed to be a team sport?

and they aren't exactly putting up gretzky like numbers. how exciting can it be to see thornton get an assist or nash get a goal every other game?

if i was an owner in europe, i'd have a little more pride than to sign some nhl "star" so he can stay in shape until his real hockey begins. i'd be more interested in signing players who wanted to play for my team.

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11-02-2004, 12:04 PM
  #44
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Originally Posted by Frankie
no its not like that at all.

gretzky was part of the oilers dynasty. he was part of the team, playing for the team to win. thornton and nash are not part of the team in davos. they will be gone tomorrow if the lockout is over. they have made it very clear that they are only there for their own selfish reasons. isn't hockey supposed to be a team sport?

and they aren't exactly putting up gretzky like numbers. how exciting can it be to see thornton get an assist or nash get a goal every other game?

if i was an owner in europe, i'd have a little more pride than to sign some nhl "star" so he can stay in shape until his real hockey begins. i'd be more interested in signing players who wanted to play for my team.
Must be some reason those Euro owners are doing it even if you do not like it .. I bet they are making extra $$$$ at the gate and other revenue by having the nhl "star" in the lineup..

You may disagree with it but just like the AHL vet rule the Euro leagues have a Import limit ( 2 or 3 ) per team .... Now if you had a choice to fill that roster spot with Thornton and Nash even short term instead of Hirsch and Bohonos .. Which would you chose ??

Why did the Baby Leafs sign Ling and release Jeff Daw .. because they believe it make the team better .. not different in Europe ..

When the lockout ends and there certainly in no guarantee that it will end soon and the Thornton and Nash's may in fact be there all season and playoffs for Davos ...

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11-02-2004, 12:08 PM
  #45
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Originally Posted by Frankie
well i usually go to hockey games to watch my team, not one or two individuals. .
This is also why I believe with your philosophy..you are really going to like the QMJHL team to cheer for ... .That way you can do exactly that .. Cheer for your team and just watch from time to time a few NHL prospects that might interest you .. as often the young draft eligible players are still not drafted and belong to no one yet..

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11-02-2004, 12:36 PM
  #46
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Originally Posted by The Messenger
Must be some reason those Euro owners are doing it even if you do not like it .. I bet they are making extra $$$$ at the gate and other revenue by having the nhl "star" in the lineup..

You may disagree with it but just like the AHL vet rule the Euro leagues have a Import limit ( 2 or 3 ) per team .... Now if you had a choice to fill that roster spot with Thornton and Nash even short term instead of Hirsch and Bohonos .. Which would you chose ??

Why did the Baby Leafs sign Ling and release Jeff Daw .. because they believe it make the team better .. not different in Europe ..

When the lockout ends and there certainly in no guarantee that it will end soon and the Thornton and Nash's may in fact be there all season and playoffs for Davos ...
yes, the owners must be making some money from this. and the fans seem to like it for the most part. but i think that's what's wrong with the whole sports world these days. that kind of thinking from fans and owners and players is why we are in this lockout.

your ling/daw comparison is way off. if ling had a clause in his contract saying he would be gone from st.john's as soon as the lockout ended, then it would be no different then what they're doing in europe. but ling signed with st.john's for the whole season, with no out clause. he isn't here just to stay in shape.

if i was davos fan, i wouldn't want to see these overpaid selfish players playing with my team only to keep in shape until their real season begins. especially if they aren't tearing up the league and dominating, which they are not.

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11-02-2004, 02:08 PM
  #47
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Originally Posted by Frankie
yes, the owners must be making some money from this. and the fans seem to like it for the most part. but i think that's what's wrong with the whole sports world these days. that kind of thinking from fans and owners and players is why we are in this lockout.

your ling/daw comparison is way off. if ling had a clause in his contract saying he would be gone from st.john's as soon as the lockout ended, then it would be no different then what they're doing in europe. but ling signed with st.john's for the whole season, with no out clause. he isn't here just to stay in shape.

if i was davos fan, i wouldn't want to see these overpaid selfish players playing with my team only to keep in shape until their real season begins. especially if they aren't tearing up the league and dominating, which they are not.
The point I was stressing that you have corrected people on many times with the AHL reference .. is that they have a 5 vets and 1 exempt rule and those spots are not taking up prospect roster spots similar to how Euro import spots are not taking up in this case with Thornton Swiss players roster spots ... Thornton is replacing Lonny Bohonos and making the team better ..

Look at it from this standpoint .. In the same hypothetical case ...If Joe Thornton would have signed and AHL contract to play in St.Johns during the Strike and in order for St. Johns to make room for that opportunity they have to release Ling or Leeb or Druken, knowing full well if the Lockout ended that Thornton would be gone .. but it makes St. Johns better and helps makes the players around Thornton better and increases the chances to make the playoffs and the owners to make more $$$ at the gate both during the season and playoff gate receipts ..

not take that exact example but apply it to Davos and Thornton and Bohonos or Hirsch etc ...

You don't see the advantage on many levels why Owners would like this ??? Fans would like this ???

You are basically saying you don't approve of this EVERYONE in it for the $$$ world ... but I bet you would NOT put your money were your mouth is as ..If the AHL Thornton example was possible ...you are saying you would BOYCOTT your home team in disapproval .. If you would continue to go to the games then you are no different than fans of those other countries cheering for their team and wanting to see the best Hockey players possible .. This point is even more emphasized in Europe where it is a chance of a lifetime to see Thornton play ...

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11-02-2004, 02:13 PM
  #48
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Originally Posted by Frankie
yes, the owners must be making some money from this. and the fans seem to like it for the most part. but i think that's what's wrong with the whole sports world these days. that kind of thinking from fans and owners and players is why we are in this lockout.

your ling/daw comparison is way off. if ling had a clause in his contract saying he would be gone from st.john's as soon as the lockout ended, then it would be no different then what they're doing in europe. but ling signed with st.john's for the whole season, with no out clause. he isn't here just to stay in shape.

if i was davos fan, i wouldn't want to see these overpaid selfish players playing with my team only to keep in shape until their real season begins. especially if they aren't tearing up the league and dominating, which they are not.
I think you are in the minority of fans who would not want their team inproved if they could. A lot of people believe the season is done, you seem to think the lock out is going to be over soon because you keep saying they are only there to get in shape until their season starts. If I'm a fan over there and my owner has a chance to improve his team, and allow me to see stars I do not normally have the opportunity to see I would want him to do it. If they stay for the year great. If they go home in March then I've seen 6 months of players I won't get to see again.

As for these players dominating and tearing up the league, do you think the team would be better off if Nash and Thornton were not there? They would play more exciting games? Are you trying to say they aren't giving the effort they should be? Or that the league is more on par with the NHL than we thought and they just can't dominate? Have you seen the games? Maybe they are dominating but not on the score sheet. I have no idea because I could care less what they do over there but I'm just curious if you've seen any of the games Nash/Thornton have played.

I would be really surprised if more than a few davos fans felt the same way you do

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11-02-2004, 02:16 PM
  #49
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Messenger
You are basically saying you don't approve of this EVERYONE in it for the $$$ world ... but I bet you would NOT put your money were your mouth is as ..If the AHL Thornton example was possible ...you are saying you would BOYCOTT your home team in disapproval .. If you would continue to go to the games then you are no different than fans of those other countries cheering for their team and wanting to see the best Hockey players possible .. This point is even more emphasized in Europe where it is a chance of a lifetime to see Thornton play ...
no i wouldn't boycott just because i disapproved. lord knows i've disapproved of many things the leafs and baby leafs have done over the years, but i still have my tickets.

i'm saying i wouldn't get excited about the team signing a thornton or a nash under these circumstances. i would rather they signed a player who wanted to play with my team and was there for the right reasons, even if he's less talented.

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11-02-2004, 02:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Frankie
no i wouldn't boycott just because i disapproved. lord knows i've disapproved of many things the leafs and baby leafs have done over the years, but i still have my tickets.

i'm saying i wouldn't get excited about the team signing a thornton or a nash under these circumstances. i would rather they signed a player who wanted to play with my team and was there for the right reasons, even if he's less talented.
Fine .... So you will continue to go ..and I bet more ST Johns fans that do not go regularly would also likely take in a game now ..perhaps..

So now isn't there a fine line now between my Thornton example and Matty Stajan .. when the Lockout ends .. Stajan likely is headed back to the NHL ..and only filling a roster spot while there is a lockout ..

and really isn't any AHL player only playing in the AHL in hopes of making it to the NHL and if the opportunity exists would in a heartbeat skip town and never look back or feel sorry for his AHL team ...


Last edited by Mess: 11-02-2004 at 03:01 PM.
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