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HOH Top 60 Defensemen List & Voting Record - seventieslord

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02-21-2012, 12:29 PM
  #1
overpass
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HOH Top 60 Defensemen List & Voting Record - seventieslord

seventieslord
Rank Player
1 Bobby Orr
2 Doug Harvey
3 Eddie Shore
4 Ray Bourque
5 Nicklas Lidstrom
6 Denis Potvin
7 Slava Fetisov
8 Red Kelly
9 Brad Park
10 Larry Robinson
11 Chris Chelios
12 Paul Coffey
13 King Clancy
14 Sprague Cleghorn
15 Pierre Pilote
16 Al Macinnis
17 Tim Horton
18 Earl Seibert
19 Dit Clapper
20 Chris Pronger
21 Scott Stevens
22 Borje Salming
23 Mark Howe
24 Valeri Vasiliev
25 Brian Leetch
26 Bill Gadsby
27 Bill Quackenbush
28 Serge Savard
29 Guy Lapointe
30 Rod Langway
31 Moose Johnson
32 Eddie Gerard
33 Lionel Conacher
34 George Boucher
35 Jack Stewart
36 Lester Patrick
37 Jacques Laperriere
38 J.C. Tremblay
39 Scott Niedermayer
40 Butch Bouchard
41 Hod Stuart
42 Harvey Pulford
43 Ebbie Goodfellow
44 Larry Murphy
45 Rob Blake
46 Marcel Pronovost
47 Zdeno Chara
48 Alexei Kasatonov
49 Ching Johnson
50 Babe Siebert
51 Carl Brewer
52 Bill White
53 Pat Stapleton
54 Ken Reardon
55 Harry Howell
56 Fern Flaman
57 Art Coulter
58 Doug Wilson
59 Alexander Ragulin
60 Jan Suchy
61 Mike Grant
62 Allan Stanley
63 Sergei Zubov
64 Tom Johnson
65 Harry Cameron
66 Sylvio Mantha
67 Hap Day
68 Frantisek Pospisil
69 Jimmy Thomson
70 Jack Crawford
71 Doug Mohns
72 Babe Pratt
73 Gus Mortson
74 Herb Gardiner
75 Vladimir Lutchenko
76 Ott Heller
77 Cy Wentworth
78 Flash Hollett
79 Joe Simpson
80 Red Dutton

Players from the Top 60 not to appear on this list
None

Players ranked highest overall on this list
None

Players ranked lowest overall on this list
None

Players unique to this list
None

Round Rank 1 Rank 2 Rank 3 Rank 4 Rank 5 Rank 6 Rank 7 Rank 8 Rank 9 Rank 10
Round 1OrrHarveyBourqueShoreLidstromPotvinFetisovKellyRobinsonChelios
Round 2Denis PotvinRed KellySlava FetisovChris CheliosBrad ParkLarry RobinsonKing ClancyPierre PilotePaul CoffeyAl MacInnis
Round 3ParkClancyCleghornCofferPiloteHortonSeibertStevensProngerMacInnis
Round 4Seibert horton stevens pronger macinnis salming gadsby leetch vasiliev clapper
Round 5Borje SalmingValeri VasilievBrian LeetchDit ClapperBill GadsbyBill QuackenbushMark HoweRod LangwayGuy LapointeJack Stewart
Round 6Bill QuackenbushMark HoweRod LangwayGuy LapointeJack StewartSerge SavardEddie GerardJ.C. TremblayMarcel PronovostScott Niedermayer
Round 7StewartLapointeKasatonovPronovostCharaTremblayNiedermayerBlakeMurphyConacher
Round 8Moose JohnsonHod StuartChing JohnsonAlexei KasatonovJC TremblayJacques LaperriereZdeno CharaRob BlakeLarry MurphyBuck Boucher
Round 9Ernest "Moose" JohnsonRob BlakeZdeno CharaLarry MurphyGeorges "Buck" BoucherAlbert "Babe" SiebertEmile "Butch" BouchardEbbie GoodfellowCarl BrewerKen Reardon
Round 10NONE         
Round 11ReardonPulfordRagulinPatrickWilsonCameronCoulterStanleyFlamanJohnson
Round 12Mike GrantHarvey PulfordFrantisek PospisilHarry CameronAlexander RagulinSylvio ManthaBill WhiteAllan StanleyBabe PrattFern Flaman


Last edited by overpass: 02-21-2012 at 07:04 PM. Reason: fixed formatting
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Old
02-21-2012, 12:36 PM
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TheDevilMadeMe
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Quote:
Players from the Top 60 not to appear on this list
None

Players ranked highest overall on this list
None

Players ranked lowest overall on this list

None

Players unique to this list

None
Boring!

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02-21-2012, 12:42 PM
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TheDevilMadeMe
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Interesting to see both Tremblay and Laperriere jump Chara between votes 7 and 8.

Out of curiosity, do you still rank Ragulin and Suchy back to back?

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02-21-2012, 12:44 PM
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Boring!
Yep. I said your list might have been the closest to consensus. Maybe this one was.

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02-21-2012, 02:55 PM
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seventieslord
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Originally Posted by overpass View Post
Yep. I said your list might have been the closest to consensus. Maybe this one was.
sweet! I like that.

Boring, though, indeed.

I still think we overrated Suchy and underrated Ragulin, yes. An imaginary line was drawn between their eras where one sucked and one was awesome, when there was never a magic switch thrown, the developments in european hockey were fluid and mostly gradual.

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02-21-2012, 04:03 PM
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Interesting to see how the positions in the Park-Chelios-Robinson trio changed every round from submitted list to the second voting. Care to elaborate a little on that?

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02-21-2012, 04:11 PM
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Originally Posted by Andros View Post
Interesting to see how the positions in the Park-Chelios-Robinson trio changed every round from submitted list to the second voting. Care to elaborate a little on that?
my initial list reflects what I thought at that time.

my round 1 vote is congruent with my initial list (Park was not an option)

arguments regarding Chelios' PK ability and incredible longevity swayed me in round 2 and convinced me he was better than park. I never changed my tune on Park v Robinson though.

kind of a boring story, really. you had to be there...


Last edited by seventieslord: 02-21-2012 at 04:25 PM.
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02-21-2012, 04:19 PM
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Originally Posted by seventieslord View Post
my initial list reflects what I thought at that time.

my round 1 vote is congruent with my initial list (Park was not an option)

arguments regarding Chelios' PK ability and incredible longevity swayed me in round 2 and convinced me he was better than park. I never changed my turn on Park v Robinson though.

kind of a boring story, really. you had to be there...
Oh yeah, didn't realize that Park wasn't an option for the first voting. Makes the story a lot less interesting

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02-21-2012, 04:59 PM
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Looking at this list, I'm surprised that his rankings for Park, Clancy and Cleghorn weren't their highest.

I also see that, like me, he voted for Chara in the weekly votes over players he had higher than him on his original list. I think a lot of us were a little guilty of underrating him.

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02-21-2012, 05:23 PM
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Originally Posted by reckoning View Post
Looking at this list, I'm surprised that his rankings for Park, Clancy and Cleghorn weren't their highest.

I also see that, like me, he voted for Chara in the weekly votes over players he had higher than him on his original list. I think a lot of us were a little guilty of underrating him.
We've already seen Cleghorn's highest - tarheelhockey had him 10th.

seventieslord was tied for 2nd highest on Park with several others. He was above median on Clancy but not extremely high. We've already seen TheDevilMadeMe list Clancy at 12 and that wasn't the highest.

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02-21-2012, 06:10 PM
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Interesting that Savard/Lapoite, Laperriere/Tremblay and White/Stapleton were all back-to-back like they were Sedins.

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02-21-2012, 06:20 PM
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Originally Posted by Dennis Bonvie View Post
Interesting that Savard/Lapoite, Laperriere/Tremblay and White/Stapleton were all back-to-back like they were Sedins.
it was deliberate. A few others:

Murphy/Blake
Ragulin/Suchy
Stuart/Pulford

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02-21-2012, 06:27 PM
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Originally Posted by seventieslord View Post
it was deliberate. A few others:

Murphy/Blake
Ragulin/Suchy
Stuart/Pulford
I asked you about Ragulin/Suchy earlier (I still have no idea why you would think they are equal, but you're entitled to your opinion).

It appears from your voting that you stuck to your guns on Murphy/Blake and changed your mind on Stuart/Pulford?

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02-21-2012, 06:33 PM
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Originally Posted by seventieslord View Post
it was deliberate. A few others:

Murphy/Blake
Ragulin/Suchy
Stuart/Pulford
I noticed those too but wasn't sure if they were the same as teammates.

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02-21-2012, 06:38 PM
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Originally Posted by Dennis Bonvie View Post
Interesting that Savard/Lapoite, Laperriere/Tremblay and White/Stapleton were all back-to-back like they were Sedins.
While you're mentioning it, I also had Savard/Lapointe and White/Stapleton back to back. I think I had Laperriere/Tremblay only seperated by a few spots too.

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02-21-2012, 06:45 PM
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Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
While you're mentioning it, I also had Savard/Lapointe and White/Stapleton back to back. I think I had Laperriere/Tremblay only seperated by a few spots too.
You're looking shadier all the time, TDMM.

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02-21-2012, 06:50 PM
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seventieslord
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Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
I asked you about Ragulin/Suchy earlier (I still have no idea why you would think they are equal, but you're entitled to your opinion).

It appears from your voting that you stuck to your guns on Murphy/Blake and changed your mind on Stuart/Pulford?
Ragulin/Suchy is a case study in longevity versus peak with the “good era, bad era” red herring thrown in for good measure. Based on what we think of Firsov I can’t believe Ragulin can get downgraded so much. He is the Firsov of Russian defensemen, based on the recognition he received and the timing of said recognition. Suchy’s case was based on a very short peak.

I never got a chance to vote otherwise, but I am comfortable with Suchy over Ragulin. The gap we ended up creating between them became pretty comical though.

Re: Murphy/Blake, I voted for Blake over Murphy three straight opportunities.

I never got a chance to vote otherwise, but I’m also comfortable with Stuart over Pulford. He really got hyped as the best player as his time by a few, and I think that influenced his final ranking a bit too much. Pulford’s defensive excellence and its contribution to a dynasty got unfairly brushed aside in the final couple of rounds. The comparisons to guys like Derian Hatcher were puzzling because this was the #2 defenseman of a generation.

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02-21-2012, 07:00 PM
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Ragulin/Suchy is a case study in longevity versus peak with the “good era, bad era” red herring thrown in for good measure. Based on what we think of Firsov I can’t believe Ragulin can get downgraded so much. He is the Firsov of Russian defensemen, based on the recognition he received and the timing of said recognition. Suchy’s case was based on a very short peak.
Quote:
I never got a chance to vote otherwise, but I am comfortable with Suchy over Ragulin. The gap we ended up creating between them became pretty comical though.
Suchy was 49th. Ragulin was 6th in votes in the final round. So assume Ragulin was 61st, is 12 spots such as huge gap? I doubt Ragulin would finish 61st in the next round, as there were some voters voting "not top 10" to just about every non-NHL European, but he'd be highly likely to get in. Considering the word on Suchy is that nobody in Europe had ever seen a defenseman like him before, I think that is a small gap if anything.

I also disagree with the Firsov/Ragulin comparison. Firsov dominated international competitions in the late 60s, as Ragulin's star was already fading.

But I doubt we'll agree on this one.

Quote:
I never got a chance to vote otherwise, but I’m also comfortable with Stuart over Pulford. He really got hyped as the best player as his time by a few, and I think that influenced his final ranking a bit too much. Pulford’s defensive excellence and its contribution to a dynasty got unfairly brushed aside in the final couple of rounds. The comparisons to guys like Derian Hatcher were puzzling because this was the #2 defenseman of a generation.
I compared Pulford to Hatcher. I also had Hatcher in my top 70, so I don't think that's exactly an insult. I didn't say Pulford was no better than Hatcher; I did say that sometimes I wonder what makes him better.

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02-22-2012, 12:30 AM
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Originally Posted by seventieslord View Post
sweet! I like that.

Boring, though, indeed.

I still think we overrated Suchy and underrated Ragulin, yes. An imaginary line was drawn between their eras where one sucked and one was awesome, when there was never a magic switch thrown, the developments in european hockey were fluid and mostly gradual.
Just wait till you see my rating of Suchy. With regards to the composition of the voting group I think we placed him quite well, maybe slightly on the low side. While I see Suchy as significantly better and more important though, I definitely think Ragulin deserved a place in the top 60.

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