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[TB/COL/DET] Downie to COL, Quincey to DET, DET's 2012 1st & Sebastien Piche to TB

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02-21-2012, 09:24 PM
  #176
LastoftheBrunnenG
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Obviously fan favs are overvalued by said fans. Proof above. While I agree Downie's positives aren't always on the scoresheet, his reputation (fair or not) offsets a lot of those intangibles. He's not a core player as he's not going to consistanly score 20 goals or 50 points. He's also too small to play that tough brand of hockey and not have injury problems down the road - in all probability. Yzerman grabbed the 1st and will have a lot of flexibility this summer to go a lot of different ways to fix the real problems of the Lightning.

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02-21-2012, 09:41 PM
  #177
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LastoftheBrunnenG View Post
Obviously fan favs are overvalued by said fans. Proof above. While I agree Downie's positives aren't always on the scoresheet, his reputation (fair or not) offsets a lot of those intangibles. He's not a core player as he's not going to consistanly score 20 goals or 50 points. He's also too small to play that tough brand of hockey and not have injury problems down the road - in all probability. Yzerman grabbed the 1st and will have a lot of flexibility this summer to go a lot of different ways to fix the real problems of the Lightning.
There's no size that makes a player immune to taking injuries from playing tough. It's the cost of doing business.

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02-21-2012, 10:06 PM
  #178
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LastoftheBrunnenG View Post
Obviously fan favs are overvalued by said fans. Proof above. While I agree Downie's positives aren't always on the scoresheet, his reputation (fair or not) offsets a lot of those intangibles. He's not a core player as he's not going to consistanly score 20 goals or 50 points. He's also too small to play that tough brand of hockey and not have injury problems down the road - in all probability. Yzerman grabbed the 1st and will have a lot of flexibility this summer to go a lot of different ways to fix the real problems of the Lightning.
He's 24 - so that must mean he has hit his ceiling? What about what he did in his first playoff stint - was that really so trivial? This guy was a former first round draft pick for a reason - sure Clarke liked his toughness but he also was picked due to talent. Think his playmaking/passing ability is being underrated by some. How many other players on this particular team battle like he did in the corners and on practically every shift he had? He was either 1st or 2nd in takeaways this season. He takes penalties for being Steve Downie but he also draws penalties for being who he is. And that PIM # of his gets inflated somewhat due to those misconducts he can take for being one of the few to stand up for his teammates. Overall, think there are more positive intangibles to point to that offset the PIM (which have been decreasing under Boucher), rather than other way around.

Understand we don't know what Yzerman does with the pick yet, but I find his explanation to this point lacking. Downie was a valuable young player that Tampa just lost - and now those intangibles have to be replaced. Also understand building through the draft but Tampa had a young guy that could be productive at the NHL level that would help this team now and allow for Yzerman's preference of not rushing prospects into the line-up. This trade seems contradictory. Trading Kubina, for example, after all his history with the Lightning, for draft picks made sense. Trading other veteran type players for picks makes sense. Trading a young guy who is rather productive to your club (and who comes cap friendly) for a draft pick (even a first) - not particularly.


Last edited by ThunderRoad: 02-21-2012 at 10:50 PM.
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02-21-2012, 10:56 PM
  #179
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???






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02-21-2012, 11:14 PM
  #180
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Would you guys package for Ryan Miller?

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02-21-2012, 11:22 PM
  #181
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I hate losing Downie, but Yzerman will get something done in the offseason to take the sting off this deal. I just really hope we try to replace some of the intangibles he brought to this team. We already aren't very tough or physical, but in the coming weeks I think we'll realize how much Downie's tenacity will be missed. It really sucks to lose a player like him, regardless of the return.

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02-22-2012, 12:36 AM
  #182
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LastoftheBrunnenG View Post
Obviously fan favs are overvalued by said fans. Proof above. While I agree Downie's positives aren't always on the scoresheet, his reputation (fair or not) offsets a lot of those intangibles. He's not a core player as he's not going to consistanly score 20 goals or 50 points. He's also too small to play that tough brand of hockey and not have injury problems down the road - in all probability. Yzerman grabbed the 1st and will have a lot of flexibility this summer to go a lot of different ways to fix the real problems of the Lightning.
Nicely put.

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02-22-2012, 12:59 AM
  #183
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Originally Posted by LastoftheBrunnenG View Post
Obviously fan favs are overvalued by said fans. Proof above. While I agree Downie's positives aren't always on the scoresheet, his reputation (fair or not) offsets a lot of those intangibles. He's not a core player as he's not going to consistanly score 20 goals or 50 points. He's also too small to play that tough brand of hockey and not have injury problems down the road - in all probability. Yzerman grabbed the 1st and will have a lot of flexibility this summer to go a lot of different ways to fix the real problems of the Lightning.
I disagree with just about everything you said here except the first sentence.

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02-22-2012, 01:18 AM
  #184
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I avoided Lightning talk all day as I had the game set on the DVR and I come home to find this.

I am somewhere in the middle with all of this. The post on Downie's intangibles is very valid. He served a purpose on this team and was one of the few players we have who would answer the bell when called. Team toughness counts. Not to the point that you need to field a team of thugs or even a few unskilled players, but you still need to have players that can play tough. We don't have that anymore.

I understand Stevie Y's desire to build through the draft. But, the return (26-30th pick conservatively) does not seem worth it. In that range, we are well into bustville and may draft a player that never makes a contribution at the NHL level. If some of these countless picks are packaged for a #1 goalie and we manage to find a top two DMan (Suter please) it will all make sense. But, if we have another offseason of limited movement and return next year with the roster we're fielding right now I will be mightily disappointed.

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02-22-2012, 07:20 AM
  #185
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If the end result with all of these draft picks ends up bringing us a solid Goalie and/or a top D then it's worth it...

I trust Yzerman to have a plan and to do what he thinks is best, but I can't say I understand this deal until I see some near future result from it...

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02-22-2012, 08:19 AM
  #186
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I get the argument about losing Downie takes away the intangibles he brought, but Mike Angelidis has 125 career fights (none in the NHL so far)

We've also got Labrie down in Norfolk. 6 NHL fights (including preseason) + 57 junior/minor league for 63 total

Malone has 42 NHL fights, and leads the team currently for career total.

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02-22-2012, 08:27 AM
  #187
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After getting some what pissed after this trade, I sat down and just really sink in. The more I thought about it the more I liked it. Honestly I loved Downie, but how many times was he was in the box simply for Downie? Is his 29 or so points in 56 games really that hard to replace? Don't really think so.

Right now as an organization we have way too many guys that have the potential to be stars, none of them have the baggage of a Steve Downie on them. Really Conacher, Ashton, Hell even a Tyler Johnson in a few seasons could more than fill in the production of Downie, without all of the stupid penalties, legit or not.

To top it all off, we get another 1st round draft pick. That first rounder can be used on a defensemen that we would develop properly, and hopefully in a few years help shore up our future D-core with the likes of Barberio, Gudas and Hedman.

Like I said, I love Downie, was an awesome team-mate for us. Really though if you sit down and think about it, its not half bad.

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02-22-2012, 08:29 AM
  #188
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Downie's guitar playing development had also fallen behind.

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02-22-2012, 09:46 AM
  #189
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Originally Posted by TheDaysOf 04 View Post
https://twitter.com/#!/TBLightning


I agree with Yzerman. If you can't draft, you won't go far. We saw this when he lost players from our cup team and couldn't replace them through the farm or through free agency. Good drafting has to be a high priority to maintain a certain level we are trying to reach. But Downie's still a young guy and plays with our other players and under our coaches systems just as good as anyone. He went through the Admirals, made a career here, grew up with this team and Stammer. Trading a quality high player like Downie to try and draft another Downie doesn't make much sense.
I would agree with this to a certain extent. But when you have stockpiled picks for a draft that most are considering as below average, does it make sense?? I could go along with this logic if you had some stud goaltending prospect in the works, but you don't. You will not go far until you get the goaltending.

IMO, Downie is not worth a 1st rounder. He does bring alot to the Lightning only because he is the only one on the team that will stand up for players and willing to do the dirty work needed. And that makes him more valuable to the Lightning than any other team. To me, he is in the same category as a Clutterbuck or Tootoo who have around the same number of points as Downie. Would you give a 1st rounder for Tootoo or Clutterbuck? No.

My suprise is that our GM did not get more for Quincey. A relatively young, puck moving d-man that eats minutes and is having a good year. Sounds like a guy the Ligthning can use.

Welcome to Detroit south... Skilled finesse players with no toughness.

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02-22-2012, 09:48 AM
  #190
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This is going to get fun.

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02-22-2012, 09:53 AM
  #191
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02-22-2012, 10:08 AM
  #192
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This is going to get fun.
How so?

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02-22-2012, 10:19 AM
  #193
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Definitely was puzzled when I saw this trade. I guess if it lands you guys a guy like Schneider or even a guy like Bernier then it will definitely look better and have a bigger impact(positive) on the team.

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02-22-2012, 10:27 AM
  #194
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I mean you honestly cant expect that Yzerman is going to use all those choices in the draft. Hes got a plan. Its going to be fun to speculate what happens. Should at least be an interesting offseason.

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02-22-2012, 10:49 AM
  #195
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Originally Posted by Felonious Python View Post
I get the argument about losing Downie takes away the intangibles he brought, but Mike Angelidis has 125 career fights (none in the NHL so far)

We've also got Labrie down in Norfolk. 6 NHL fights (including preseason) + 57 junior/minor league for 63 total

Malone has 42 NHL fights, and leads the team currently for career total.
It's not just the fighting. He was like a pitbull. He had that never back down never quit mentality. He was a great team player, fearless, stood up for his teammates, got under the opponents' skin. I seriously doubt any of those players you've mentioned would get Ovechkin so far that he's willing to drop the gloves with 'em when his team is down 4-7. Downie did that. Can't replace that just like that.* That's also the reason why he's a fan favorite - at least around here.

* But I'm sure Yzerman is not even trying to replace that (or him), though. He's going in a different direction. It was more or less clear from the beginning that he didn't fit in Yzerman's plans. Downie is effective, in his own ways but that's not the way Yzerman, who's all about honor and respect, likes his players to play the game. Right after he was hired there were speculations on what would happen to Downie. He was in Boucher's doghouse for a longer time, too. In hindsight I'm pretty sure the only reason why he wasn't traded or let go earlier like Meszaros, Konopka, Niittymaki, Walker, Veilleux, etc. was his connection and friendship with Stamkos. Marty of course and maybe Vinny aside, Downie was probably the most important player for Stamkos and his development (and vice versa).


Last edited by LightningStrikes: 02-22-2012 at 11:49 AM.
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02-22-2012, 10:53 AM
  #196
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Originally Posted by Genius Brian Lawton View Post
This is going to get fun.
...what are you implying?

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02-22-2012, 11:35 AM
  #197
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This is going to get fun.
I don't doubt it!

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02-22-2012, 12:26 PM
  #198
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"Welcome to Detroit south... Skilled finesse players with no toughness."

I don't think there's a lot of complaining in Detroit about the Red Wings.....................................

I'm in the let's wait and see what else SFY does camp. I don't think he's finished.

That said, it puts a weird spin on the rest of this season. Went to the game last night and I was feeling down and thinking, "Well, here's the first preseason exhibition game for next year. Time to bring up some players from Norfolk and see how they work out". Then they go and win the game and I'm thinking can they somehow manage to get into the playoff picture while doing the building project for the future? I guess we'll see. For the moment at least this season is still worth watching.

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02-22-2012, 12:58 PM
  #199
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I actually like the position it puts the team in mentally, maybe they'll stop taking nights off.

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02-22-2012, 01:58 PM
  #200
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I liked Downie, full of energy, and worked the boards well. So im a bit saddened, hope he excels in Colorado.

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