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[TB/COL/DET] Downie to COL, Quincey to DET, DET's 2012 1st & Sebastien Piche to TB

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Old
02-22-2012, 01:44 PM
  #201
I Am Beat You
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Originally Posted by TBFan View Post
I would agree with this to a certain extent. But when you have stockpiled picks for a draft that most are considering as below average, does it make sense?? I could go along with this logic if you had some stud goaltending prospect in the works, but you don't. You will not go far until you get the goaltending.

IMO, Downie is not worth a 1st rounder. He does bring alot to the Lightning only because he is the only one on the team that will stand up for players and willing to do the dirty work needed. And that makes him more valuable to the Lightning than any other team. To me, he is in the same category as a Clutterbuck or Tootoo who have around the same number of points as Downie. Would you give a 1st rounder for Tootoo or Clutterbuck? No.

My suprise is that our GM did not get more for Quincey. A relatively young, puck moving d-man that eats minutes and is having a good year. Sounds like a guy the Ligthning can use.

Welcome to Detroit south... Skilled finesse players with no toughness.
First off, Tootoo and Clutterbuck are not on the same level as Downie.

Secondly, we are not much like Detroit at all. I like how people always point to Detroit when the issue of of our toughness comes up, as if to imply that a lack of toughness somehow means a team is better, or that Detroit is too good for certain types of players.

Detroit plays a tougher brand of hockey than we do despite being a big time puck possession team. They are more physical than we are and have grown accustomed to the higher level of physicality in the western conference. They have also carried such players as Brad May, Aaron Downey and Darren McCarty in recent years and have shown interest in players like Colton Orr and Travis Moen. This isn't a team that is opposed to toughness, it just so happens that they like their chemistry and don't feel the need at the moment to add that type of player.

Furthermore, Detroit is fantastic defensively and has Selke caliber stars like Datsyuk and Zetterberg who were late round steals. They also have a good young goalie in Howard who should be a solid netminder for years to come.

We may be similar to Detroit in that we don't fight often, but other than that we fall short of them in almost every way. Their dynamic is quite different from ours as well, and the Detroit "model" is very unique. I admire Yzerman wanting us to be perennial contenders like Detroit, but trying to copy what they have done is going to be very difficult. Either way, lacking toughness isn't something that's key for a team to be successful, and that includes Detroit.


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02-22-2012, 02:06 PM
  #202
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Originally Posted by Genius Brian Lawton View Post
I actually like the position it puts the team in mentally, maybe they'll stop taking nights off.
We joked that they were playing so well because they didn't want to be the next one traded.

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02-22-2012, 02:50 PM
  #203
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I don't agree with this notion that Detroit lacks toughness

Franzen and Bertuzzi are plenty tough...Those are just the two that come off the top of my head too...

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02-22-2012, 03:02 PM
  #204
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I don't agree with this notion that Detroit lacks toughness

Franzen and Bertuzzi are plenty tough...Those are just the two that come off the top of my head too...
and Homer in his own way, standing there infront of the goal taking a beating year after year.

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02-22-2012, 03:13 PM
  #205
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And Kronwall not being shy about taking the body, and Ericsson, and Helm

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02-22-2012, 03:24 PM
  #206
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And Stuart and Abdelkader.

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02-22-2012, 03:32 PM
  #207
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Originally Posted by The Alaskan Assassin View Post
First off, Tootoo and Clutterbuck are not on the same level as Downie.

Secondly, we are not much like Detroit at all. I like how people always point to Detroit when the issue of of our toughness comes up, as if to imply that a lack of toughness somehow means a team is better, or that Detroit is too good for certain types of players.

Detroit plays a tougher brand of hockey than we do despite being a big time puck possession team. They are more physical than we are and have grown accustomed to the higher level of physicality in the western conference. They have also carried such players as Brad May, Aaron Downey and Darren McCarty in recent years and have shown interest in players like Colton Orr and Travis Moen. This isn't a team that is opposed to toughness, it just so happens that they like their chemistry and don't feel the need at the moment to add that type of player.

Furthermore, Detroit is fantastic defensively and has Selke caliber stars like Datsyuk and Zetterberg who were late round steals. They also have a good young goalie in Howard who should be a solid netminder for years to come.

We may be similar to Detroit in that we don't fight often, but other than that we fall short of them in almost every way. Their dynamic is quite different from ours as well, and the Detroit "model" is very unique. I admire Yzerman wanting us to be perennial contenders like Detroit, but trying to copy what they have done is going to be very difficult. Either way, lacking toughness isn't something that's key for a team to be successful, and that includes Detroit.
Simmer down Mr. Cherry.

Based on stats, intangibles, and what those players bring to their respective teams, they are on the same level. And that level to me does not warrant a 1st round pick.

I am not knocking Detroit's style of play. My issue is that our fearless leader is directing this team towards that direction. This team is light years away from that level of play. I am just afraid it will take way to long to mold this team into the GM's vision.

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02-22-2012, 03:43 PM
  #208
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Simmer down Mr. Cherry.

Based on stats, intangibles, and what those players bring to their respective teams, they are on the same level. And that level to me does not warrant a 1st round pick.

I am not knocking Detroit's style of play. My issue is that our fearless leader is directing this team towards that direction. This team is light years away from that level of play. I am just afraid it will take way to long to mold this team into the GM's vision.
Nobody needs to "simmer down", I just thought I'd highlight some of the big differences between the two teams. I don't even disagree with your last point, but I think Downie is easily superior to both Tootoo and Clutterbuck in most ways and has the most room for improvement as well.

And if we're calling players like Kronwall and Helm "tough", I doubt there's another team in the league with less names we could put in that category. That said, Detroit plays tougher than we do, in my opinion. It's not all about the fights.

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02-23-2012, 05:32 AM
  #209
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Anyone think Rick Tocchet might be in line to replace Sacco?

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02-23-2012, 07:49 AM
  #210
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Anyone think Rick Tocchet might be in line to replace Sacco?
It's going to be someone from the group of Sacco (if they decide to resign him), Roy (if he choses them over Habs) or Quinn (if they don't resign Sacco and Roy declines their offer).

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02-23-2012, 10:08 AM
  #211
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Yzerman:
Quote:
"I'm trading players and popular players for draft picks. These moves are made for the future. My only message is I'm going to do what I feel is necessary to be a Stanley Cup contender, and I think these moves help us get going in that direction." (...)

Yzerman said, "I don't expect to be incredibly busy" before Monday's trade deadline, partly, he joked, because "we're running out of bodies."

Even so, he added, "Any situation that comes along through the trade deadline to the offseason we're willing to look at.

"These draft picks give us options. They don't help today, no question, but, again, my goal is to win a Stanley Cup here. We have to do some difficult things to do that."
http://www.tampabay.com/sports/hocke...ick-in/1216392

Marty:
Quote:
"It doesn't make it any easier, and I think Steve knows that," wing Marty St. Louis said.

"It's tough to analyze what he's done because we haven't gotten anything but draft picks. We have to trust what he's doing, and time will tell how good a job he's doing, because draft picks are just draft picks." (...)

"You trust that there is a bigger picture there," St. Louis said. "I trust Steve."
Boucher:
Quote:
"When I mention things, his first question is what are we getting back," Yzerman said. "He's waiting for a name, not a draft pick, and I can see the wind come out of his sails when I say a draft pick."

Said Boucher, "To move forward, you have to make harsh, difficult decisions at sometimes tough moments, and that's what (Yzerman) has to do right now. I trust him. So, after the initial wind out of my sails, it takes me two, three minutes to sit and go, 'What do I have now? What's the plan, and how do I make the best of it?' "
Yzerman, again:
Quote:
"They want to win now," he said. "I've been in their shoes. I understand. I want to do well now, too, but I believe there are certain things that need to be done to get us where we ultimately want to be. That's a decision I have to make, balance what's right for the rest of this year and what's right for the future."
http://www.tampabay.com/sports/hocke...ermans/1216655


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02-23-2012, 10:47 AM
  #212
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Respect the process.

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02-23-2012, 10:50 AM
  #213
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Originally Posted by Genius Brian Lawton View Post
Respect the process.
I've watched far too many Mike Holmgren/Pat Shurmur press conferences for my own good so... **** the process.

"It's a process"

"We're in the process"

"Stick with the process"

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02-23-2012, 11:00 AM
  #214
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There is a plan, everyone just needs to chill.

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02-23-2012, 11:07 AM
  #215
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Originally Posted by Genius Brian Lawton View Post
There is a plan, everyone just needs to chill.
Of course theres a plan. Every GM has a plan.

"Best laid plans of mice and men often go astray."

Im keeping faith, I just hope Yzerman is able to get who hes going after.

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02-23-2012, 11:13 AM
  #216
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It'll happen.

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02-23-2012, 12:14 PM
  #217
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Genius Brian Lawton View Post
There is a plan, everyone just needs to chill.
wow. bossy

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02-23-2012, 12:50 PM
  #218
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There is a plan, everyone just needs to chill.
Of course there is a plan.

Do you think a GM would come out and say there is not a plan??

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02-23-2012, 12:53 PM
  #219
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Of course there is a plan.

Do you think a GM would come out and say there is not a plan??
People in this town are dumb enough to believe there isn't one.

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02-23-2012, 01:34 PM
  #220
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Originally Posted by Genius Brian Lawton View Post
People in this town are dumb enough to believe there isn't one.
And those dummies should be chastised for not being All In.

It is admittedly vague the plan SFY lays out for us.

When people hear 'plan', they expect specifics, but SFY won't give that to them, or the rest of the league.

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02-23-2012, 01:54 PM
  #221
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Originally Posted by Felonious Python View Post
And those dummies should be chastised for not being All In.

It is admittedly vague the plan SFY lays out for us.

When people hear 'plan', they expect specifics, but SFY won't give that to them, or the rest of the league.
Based on the makeup of this team and the moves that have been made, if people haven't figured out what our GM's 'Plan' is, then they are just as dumb as the people who don't think he has a plan.

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02-23-2012, 02:58 PM
  #222
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As a life long Red Wings fan, what went from general curiosity over the fan reaction of the three-team trade has evolved into a vested interest in the debate over the strategic direction of the team. More specifically, if Steve Yzerman is attempting to rebuild the franchise, why sacrifice what is assumed a valuable piece of the team's future for a draft pick?

Although there is surrounding controversy around this particular move, it is apparent that Yzerman is working towards a systemic transformation of the Tampa organization to better position it for consistent and sustainable success in the Modern Era NHL. Yzerman has adopted, whether good or bad, a similar managerial style of those of his mentors, Ken Holland and Jim Nill of the Detroit Red Wings. Whether or not their system is directly applicable to the Tampa Bay organization remains to be seen. There are very stark differences between the two clubs.

The Wings have had the benefit of a long-standing championship caliber core of players and this has afforded them the luxury of building a robust, and codified development process with their young prospects. The Wings are structured, methodical, and forward-looking in timing prospect growth to correspond with player decline. Typically any draft pick made by Detroit has a 5-6 year development cycle before they take a minor role with the parent club. This is partially the result of their consistently poor position within the draft due to prior year's success. Often organizations who pick earlier in the draft are looking for more "NHL Ready" prospects who can contribute in the very near term, leading to the often overlooked physically underdeveloped, albeit skilled prospects in the later half. Since the Wings do not require a immediate impact player, the Wings will often take an underdeveloped prospects (typically small in size or has demonstrated poor skating) as these players are available when they draft, and they give them time to develop in the Major Juniors, College, and AHL. Typically, the Wings evaluate their prospects looking for key attributes (high skill, high hockey IQ, solid positioning, etc). The list of these examples are numerous and each very thematically similar (Datsyuk, Zetterberg, Hudler, Filppula, etc.)

This has also helped perpetuate the stigma that the Wings are "soft". Very rarely do the Wings have ready access to a 6'4" 210LB Power Forward with excellent all round skills as these are highly coveted metrics by other teams and they are left with 150LB pound 5'10 prospects (i.e. Datsyuk).

The point of all of this as it pertains to the Tampa Bay Lightning.

Almost all of the current Red Wings are a direct product of their strict adherence to drafting prospects with specifically identified qualities, developing that prospect over the course of their early career, and placing them in the best position to succeed in gradual levels of responsibility (CHL, AHL, 4th, 2nd, 1st). The root cause, the foundation of the Detroit organization is based upon this simple philosophy. Almost every star on the Wings roster was a direct result of this system and every "rookie" that's added to the team in actuality has been schooled and seasoned by Detroit for the better half of a decade before they see limited minutes.

Yzerman recognizes that the lifeblood of any organization is their prospects and the ability to effectively reload on the fly with quality talent with little disruption as possible. Yes, it is possible to build a team around blockbuster trades and overvalued contracts (a la Brian Burke), but it often leads to massive dismantling following a suicide run at the Cup. Yzerman is building for a long term, sustainable model and has started with the restructure and refocus of building a team through sound drafting and player development. I don't believe that it was coincidental that after his hiring, Yzerman appointed a new General Manager to the Admirals, a new Director of Player Personnel, and a new Head Director for Amateur Scouting.

In the meantime, Yzerman has been filling potential gaps on the main club with cap-friendly veterans in short term contracts while they flesh out the prospect pool. Currently, Hockey’s Future has the Tampa Bay Lightning as 25th out of the 30 NHL clubs in terms of prospect strength. By adding more draft picks, Yzerman is raising the overall strength of the organization and positioning it for long term success. I know that you all must be tired of hearing this, but have faith in your management that they are doing everything they can do ensure long-term success.

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02-23-2012, 03:00 PM
  #223
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As for Steve Downie:

I believe that it is a Seller’s Market at this year’s deadline which has greatly increased the price required to obtain a last minute addition to a playoff roster. This has greatly inflated the price for a player like Downie and could return a 1st RD pick. Additionally, the market value of a player like this has also increased. A 2nd/3rd line agitator with 40-50pt potential has lead to overpayment much as the defensemen in the 2011 offseason. If the Ruutu extension (4.75M a year) was any indication of how the market were to shake out for these player, Downie could become extremely expensive when he contract came up at the end of the year. The market timing was excellent for maximizing return and would look as if the market would become overpriced if allowed to continue to the off-season.

Assuming a conservative contract extension for Downie, of $3M a year based upon prior contract performance and market pressure to match any offer sheets, that’s $3M for a player who has averaged 0.49ppg. It is more realistic that he would cost more than that value given a comparative player (i.e. Derrick Brassard) is making roughly $3M a season with nearly identical stats, age, and role and with the overpayment of Ruutu setting the tone for the off-season, the potential that he could be paid more than that on the free market make him a very expensive 35-40pts a season.

Now this served Yzerman two fold as it prevented the possibility of overpayment for what is a very strong 3rd line winger (and a low scoring 2nd line winger), when he could have a 1st Round pick for him, improve the talent pipeline of the organization which seems to be his priority, and allow him more financial flexibility to address other team needs in what is shaping up to be a strong Free Agent Class for 2012.

Although Downie was a “fan favorite”, Yzerman understands that 10g can be had through careful waiver wire work or a very affordable signing of an overlooked hungry veteran (recent examples that Yzerman would have been involved with would be Drew Miller and Patrick Eaves). The importance of finding “cheap goals” is essential to building a contender and Downie was quickly shaping up to be an expensive option for the type of player that he was. Taking into account what could be a overpriced offseason to retain his services, the ease in which they could replace the qualities that he brought, and the rich offer of a 1st RD pick in conjunction with his strategy to bolster the quality of talent in the prospect pool, it was extremely logical and savvy for Yzerman to move Downie.

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02-23-2012, 05:48 PM
  #224
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheOctopusKid View Post
As for Steve Downie:

I believe that it is a Seller’s Market at this year’s deadline which has greatly increased the price required to obtain a last minute addition to a playoff roster. This has greatly inflated the price for a player like Downie and could return a 1st RD pick. Additionally, the market value of a player like this has also increased. A 2nd/3rd line agitator with 40-50pt potential has lead to overpayment much as the defensemen in the 2011 offseason. If the Ruutu extension (4.75M a year) was any indication of how the market were to shake out for these player, Downie could become extremely expensive when he contract came up at the end of the year. The market timing was excellent for maximizing return and would look as if the market would become overpriced if allowed to continue to the off-season.

Assuming a conservative contract extension for Downie, of $3M a year based upon prior contract performance and market pressure to match any offer sheets, that’s $3M for a player who has averaged 0.49ppg. It is more realistic that he would cost more than that value given a comparative player (i.e. Derrick Brassard) is making roughly $3M a season with nearly identical stats, age, and role and with the overpayment of Ruutu setting the tone for the off-season, the potential that he could be paid more than that on the free market make him a very expensive 35-40pts a season.

Now this served Yzerman two fold as it prevented the possibility of overpayment for what is a very strong 3rd line winger (and a low scoring 2nd line winger), when he could have a 1st Round pick for him, improve the talent pipeline of the organization which seems to be his priority, and allow him more financial flexibility to address other team needs in what is shaping up to be a strong Free Agent Class for 2012.

Although Downie was a “fan favorite”, Yzerman understands that 10g can be had through careful waiver wire work or a very affordable signing of an overlooked hungry veteran (recent examples that Yzerman would have been involved with would be Drew Miller and Patrick Eaves). The importance of finding “cheap goals” is essential to building a contender and Downie was quickly shaping up to be an expensive option for the type of player that he was. Taking into account what could be a overpriced offseason to retain his services, the ease in which they could replace the qualities that he brought, and the rich offer of a 1st RD pick in conjunction with his strategy to bolster the quality of talent in the prospect pool, it was extremely logical and savvy for Yzerman to move Downie.
Absolutely. Great post.

Also, it reminds me of Scotty Bowmans quote about how to sustain success, and it was basically "have new blood ready every year, if only one individual with good character, it can drive away complacency in a locker room".

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02-23-2012, 06:41 PM
  #225
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Originally Posted by Genius Brian Lawton View Post
There is a plan, everyone just needs to chill.
If you remember back to when SFY was first hired he preached patience because he wanted a consistent winner and at that point he wasn't sure the team he had then would be that. Well after the successful offseason he put together and guys buying into Boucher they played great and became contenders. They are back to where Steve was first trying to preach patience and guys we can have that same thing happen next year where Steve puts together a great team and the guys make another run. Let's just hope it's more consistent this time.

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