HFBoards

Go Back   HFBoards > NHL Western Conference > Pacific Division > San Jose Sharks
Mobile Hockey's Future Become a Sponsor Site Rules Support Forum vBookie Page 2
Notices

Dreger: Sharks strong contender for Nash

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old
02-22-2012, 07:08 PM
  #401
Phu
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2010
Posts: 6,774
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by wtfisthis View Post
Correct me if Im wrong but I think the only thing Marleau has on Nash is speed. I would take everything else of Nash over Marleau.
Again, can you point me to the empirical evidence of this? I didn't see anything watching him, so maybe you have something on paper that shows this?

Phu is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-22-2012, 07:10 PM
  #402
wtfisthis
Registered User
 
wtfisthis's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Country: United States
Posts: 2,781
vCash: 500
There are things you just cant determine by stats......do you even watch hockey or do you just look at boxscores and stats all day?

wtfisthis is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-22-2012, 07:16 PM
  #403
WSS11
Registered User
 
WSS11's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Posts: 767
vCash: 772
didn't see this posted..i cant imagine DW getting Nash without giving up Pavs..which would be stupid..Don't think we're getting him. We can't afford to give up Clowe because this team is soft enough as it is. http://blogs.mercurynews.com/sharks/...sions-we-make/

WSS11 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-22-2012, 07:16 PM
  #404
BigDmitriy
Registered User
 
BigDmitriy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: San Jose
Country: United States
Posts: 996
vCash: 500
Send a message via AIM to BigDmitriy Send a message via MSN to BigDmitriy Send a message via Yahoo to BigDmitriy
Quote:
Originally Posted by wtfisthis View Post
There are things you just cant determine by stats......do you even watch hockey or do you just look at boxscores and stats all day?
LOL. I think he does...

BigDmitriy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-22-2012, 07:17 PM
  #405
Pinkfloyd
Registered User
 
Pinkfloyd's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Roseville
Country: United States
Posts: 32,048
vCash: 2283
Quote:
Originally Posted by couturefan39 View Post
Heart.

Marleau lacks heart and has been playing like he doesn't give a ****.
Give me a break. If you think Rick Nash is an all-out all-the-time kind of player, you're sadly mistaken. If you think Rick Nash floats less than Marleau, you're sadly mistaken.

Quote:
Originally Posted by juantimer View Post
Can you direct me to the numbers that bear this out?



Can you direct me to the numbers that bear this out?

I was not impressed with Nash in any of our games vs the BJs, but especially in the game we whupped on them in ... didn't really show any particular heart in that game. As opposed to a player like, say, Iginla who is known for his heart.
What numbers do you expect to bear out how a player plays down low holding on to a puck or being a net presence? The shot one, you can actually point to the career percentage but that doesn't necessarily mean one has a better shot than the other. The quality of the shot is fairly relative. Just take it at face value and draw your own conclusion.

Quote:
Originally Posted by wtfisthis View Post
Correct me if Im wrong but I think the only thing Marleau has on Nash is speed. I would take everything else of Nash over Marleau.
I would take Marleau's defensive play, speed, face-off ability, and experience over Rick Nash in a heart beat. People like to dismiss the fact that Marleau is still at worst the second best defensive forward on this team and has always been one of the top three producers offensively since the 2002-03 season.

Pinkfloyd is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-22-2012, 07:17 PM
  #406
Phu
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2010
Posts: 6,774
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by wtfisthis View Post
There are things you just cant determine by stats......do you even watch hockey or do you just look at boxscores and stats all day?
As I said, he has been a non-factor or nearly so in just about all the games I can remember watching vs the BJs. So I am asking for stats hoping that maybe they provide some explanation, because I don't see it. As far as I have ever known Nash is a quick forward with scoring touch and good size. Definitely top line wing material but that's exactly what Patty is, plus center and defensive ability.

Nash at his best has been a 40 goal guy, basically the same as patty, and lately has been good for 30-something every year, same as patty.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pinkfloyd View Post
What numbers do you expect to bear out how a player plays down low holding on to a puck or being a net presence? The shot one, you can actually point to the career percentage but that doesn't necessarily mean one has a better shot than the other. The quality of the shot is fairly relative. Just take it at face value and draw your own conclusion.
There must be something, because I certainly don't see him near our net causing problems for us. I don't think I have ever watched a BJs game vs the Sharks and said wow that guy Nash ... I've said that a ton about the likes of Iginla though, no matter how crappy the Flames were at the time.

Phu is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-22-2012, 07:21 PM
  #407
magic school bus
***********
 
magic school bus's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: San Jose, CA
Country: United States
Posts: 14,701
vCash: 1965
Quote:
Originally Posted by wtfisthis View Post
Correct me if Im wrong but I think the only thing Marleau has on Nash is speed. I would take everything else of Nash over Marleau.
That's not even true. Marleau is routinely voted top 5 in skating ability/speed in the players poll. I can't remember Nash making the list.

magic school bus is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-22-2012, 07:23 PM
  #408
wtfisthis
Registered User
 
wtfisthis's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Country: United States
Posts: 2,781
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by juantimer View Post
As I said, he has been a non-factor or nearly so in just about all the games I can remember watching vs the BJs. So I am asking for stats hoping that maybe they provide some explanation, because I don't see it. As far as I have ever known Nash is a quick forward with scoring touch and good size. Definitely top line wing material but that's exactly what Patty is, plus center and defensive ability.

Nash at his best has been a 40 goal guy, basically the same as patty, and lately has been good for 30-something every year, same as patty.



There must be something, because I certainly don't see him near our net causing problems for us. I don't think I have ever watched a BJs game vs the Sharks and said wow that guy Nash ... I've said that a ton about the likes of Iginla though, no matter how crappy the Flames were at the time.
The talent on the Sharks >>>> talent on the BJs. The Sharks' second line can be first line on the BJs. Marleau has Thornton, Nash has who? If you wanna look at numbers, look at Marleau's numbers before Thornton came here and then compare them to Rick Nash. I mean the gap between them isnt as big as some people make it seem but I would take Rick Nash any day.

Quote:
Originally Posted by magic school bus View Post
That's not even true. Marleau is routinely voted top 5 in skating ability/speed in the players poll. I can't remember Nash making the list.
Think you read my post wrong. I said Marleau's speed is better than Nash's.


Last edited by wtfisthis: 02-22-2012 at 07:29 PM.
wtfisthis is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-22-2012, 07:24 PM
  #409
wtfisthis
Registered User
 
wtfisthis's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Country: United States
Posts: 2,781
vCash: 500
delete

wtfisthis is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-22-2012, 07:29 PM
  #410
Fistfullofbeer
HFBoards Sponsor
 
Fistfullofbeer's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2011
Location: Whidbey Island, WA
Country: India
Posts: 7,977
vCash: 50
I dont get this Marleau vs Nash comparision.

Every excuse for Marleau being better is met with a 'but he had better linemates'. Why even bother then.

__________________
What?! Look, he thinks he's people!
Fistfullofbeer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-22-2012, 07:29 PM
  #411
Clowe Me
Registered User
 
Clowe Me's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: 530
Country: Uzbekistan
Posts: 17,496
vCash: 50
I see the Sharks just throwing their name in here just in case a team like LA really wants Nash. Leverage them out by making them think there are teams with better offers.

Clowe Me is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-22-2012, 07:30 PM
  #412
magic school bus
***********
 
magic school bus's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: San Jose, CA
Country: United States
Posts: 14,701
vCash: 1965
You're right. Sorry, I did read that wrong.

magic school bus is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-22-2012, 07:31 PM
  #413
KzooShark
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Posts: 2,178
vCash: 500
I think when Tuesday rolls around, Nash is going to be a Blue Jacket.

IMO, Howson should be on his way out of Columbus, and I wouldn't let him make this level of a trade if I was their owner.

KzooShark is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-22-2012, 07:31 PM
  #414
Fistfullofbeer
HFBoards Sponsor
 
Fistfullofbeer's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2011
Location: Whidbey Island, WA
Country: India
Posts: 7,977
vCash: 50
Quote:
Originally Posted by Clowe Me View Post
I see the Sharks just throwing their name in here just in case a team like LA really wants Nash. Leverage them out by making them think there are teams with better offers.
From what I have read Nash does not want to go to LA. Reading the trade forums it seems that the Rangers and Sharks are the only viable options for Nash. For what that is worth.

Fistfullofbeer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-22-2012, 07:46 PM
  #415
Thepainter
Registered User
 
Thepainter's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Bay Area, California
Country: United States
Posts: 5,149
vCash: 500
Nash is not better than Pavelski. Something centered around Havlat and Griess would be nice

Thepainter is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-22-2012, 07:50 PM
  #416
Phu
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2010
Posts: 6,774
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by wtfisthis View Post
The talent on the Sharks >>>> talent on the BJs. The Sharks' second line can be first line on the BJs. Marleau has Thornton, Nash has who? If you wanna look at numbers, look at Marleau's numbers before Thornton came here and then compare them to Rick Nash. I mean the gap between them isnt as big as some people make it seem but I would take Rick Nash any day.
Being on a poor team doesn't necessarily mean worse numbers for a player. On a team with less talent a player has more opportunity to score. How many players have come to the Sharks and seen their numbers decline or not appreciably increase?

Marleau was just about a PPG player on pace for 35 goals when Thornton joined the Sharks in 2005. That compares favorably with Rick Nash even at his best.

Phu is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-22-2012, 07:53 PM
  #417
Fistfullofbeer
HFBoards Sponsor
 
Fistfullofbeer's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2011
Location: Whidbey Island, WA
Country: India
Posts: 7,977
vCash: 50
There is only way left to answer this question.

Get Nash without losing Pavs for Clowe++.

Create a Nash-Jumbo-$$$$ line and monitor the numbers for Nash and Pavs over the year(s).

Do it DW!! Help answer our question.

Fistfullofbeer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-22-2012, 08:13 PM
  #418
Pinkfloyd
Registered User
 
Pinkfloyd's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Roseville
Country: United States
Posts: 32,048
vCash: 2283
Quote:
Originally Posted by wtfisthis View Post
The talent on the Sharks >>>> talent on the BJs. The Sharks' second line can be first line on the BJs. Marleau has Thornton, Nash has who? If you wanna look at numbers, look at Marleau's numbers before Thornton came here and then compare them to Rick Nash. I mean the gap between them isnt as big as some people make it seem but I would take Rick Nash any day.
The implication that Marleau's numbers after Thornton are mostly or completely due to Thornton is a faulty one. Patrick Marleau is a supremely better player than Rick Nash and it has almost nothing to do with points. Quite simply, Patrick Marleau does a hell of a lot more to help his team win than Rick Nash does.

Pinkfloyd is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-22-2012, 08:37 PM
  #419
polmaniac932
Registered User
 
polmaniac932's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: San Jose
Posts: 1,374
vCash: 500
I think the regressing numbers of Nash in this case have much more to do with being a jaded member of the BJs rather than simply having to play for a crappy team. All Nash has ever tasted is Columbus in the NHL, and has had to deal with inept management that drafts terribly and makes signings with players like Adam Foote, expecting them to pan out for more than they are capable. I was amazed when they tried to get Jeff Carter, because that's just something you don't see from the team. I can't imagine Nash wouldn't benefit immensely from a change of scenery.


Last edited by polmaniac932: 02-22-2012 at 08:49 PM.
polmaniac932 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-22-2012, 08:42 PM
  #420
ChompChomp
SACK T-MAC
 
ChompChomp's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Dallas, TX (Ugh)
Country: United States
Posts: 8,934
vCash: 500
There is one thing to consider for Nash: the Sharks curse on the league.

You see, the Sharks were totally screwed out of the #1 overall pick in their first year because the league, especially the Nordiques, whined like babies and a garbage deal was struck that the Sharks would enter the league and not get the #1 overall pick.

It should have been the Sharks getting that #1 overall, and thus drafting Lindros, and then getting that crazy return in the trade: Forsberg, Ricci, Hextall, Chris Simon, Huffman, Duchesne, 1993 1st round pick, 1994 1st round pick, and $15M in cash (or they should have got Lindros).

Since then, the Sharks put a curse on the league for this travesty. Trade them a former #1 overall just before they hit their prime and they will become a franchise player for San Jose: Owen Nolan. Joe Thornton. Next up, Rick Nash?

ChompChomp is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-22-2012, 08:49 PM
  #421
polmaniac932
Registered User
 
polmaniac932's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: San Jose
Posts: 1,374
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pinkfloyd View Post
The implication that Marleau's numbers after Thornton are mostly or completely due to Thornton is a faulty one. Patrick Marleau is a supremely better player than Rick Nash and it has almost nothing to do with points. Quite simply, Patrick Marleau does a hell of a lot more to help his team win than Rick Nash does.
I don't think anyone is arguing that Marleau's success is COMPLETELY due to Thornton, but you can't deny that Thornton has helped. Since the moment Joe was traded to the Sharks, Marleau became a huge beneficiary of it. I know the lockout rule changes and the time off made it better for scorers, but you don't jump from someone who had never broken 57 pts. after 8 seasons in the NHL to a perennial 35G, 75P threat.

I just think it's frivolous to assess Nash based on how he's done in Columbus with little to no support whatsoever. Marleau is a spectacular player to boot, and even I would rather have him than Nash, but I'm not going to say he's definitively better "in every way" than Nash without seeing how Nash would do in an environment that has anything more than an crappy goalie, crappy defensive core, and crappy offensive depth. Swap Nash with ANY player in the NHL other than Malkin, Crosby, H. Sedin, and I don't think there's many others who could do much better either for the team or for themselves.

polmaniac932 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-22-2012, 08:57 PM
  #422
stalockrox
Registered User
 
stalockrox's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Posts: 4,371
vCash: 500
TSN made their 'predictions' on where Nash ends up:

Darren Dreger thinks he ends up in San Jose, Pierre Lebrun thinks he goes to New York, and Bob McKenzie thinks he stays in Columbus (at least until this offseason).

I'm still siding w/ McKenzie...

stalockrox is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-22-2012, 09:13 PM
  #423
sjshark91
Registered User
 
sjshark91's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Country:
Posts: 23,648
vCash: 2810
Quote:
Originally Posted by stalockrox View Post
TSN made their 'predictions' on where Nash ends up:

Darren Dreger thinks he ends up in San Jose, Pierre Lebrun thinks he goes to New York, and Bob McKenzie thinks he stays in Columbus (at least until this offseason).

I'm still siding w/ McKenzie...
Were these just on Nash or others too?

I would like to see who they have Carter going to.

sjshark91 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-22-2012, 09:15 PM
  #424
Pinkfloyd
Registered User
 
Pinkfloyd's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Roseville
Country: United States
Posts: 32,048
vCash: 2283
Quote:
Originally Posted by polmaniac932 View Post
I don't think anyone is arguing that Marleau's success is COMPLETELY due to Thornton, but you can't deny that Thornton has helped. Since the moment Joe was traded to the Sharks, Marleau became a huge beneficiary of it. I know the lockout rule changes and the time off made it better for scorers, but you don't jump from someone who had never broken 57 pts. after 8 seasons in the NHL to a perennial 35G, 75P threat.

I just think it's frivolous to assess Nash based on how he's done in Columbus with little to no support whatsoever. Marleau is a spectacular player to boot, and even I would rather have him than Nash, but I'm not going to say he's definitively better "in every way" than Nash without seeing how Nash would do in an environment that has anything more than an crappy goalie, crappy defensive core, and crappy offensive depth. Swap Nash with ANY player in the NHL other than Malkin, Crosby, H. Sedin, and I don't think there's many others who could do much better either for the team or for themselves.
You do make that jump when the play of the game opens up to a place that is more suitable to the skills of the player. Marleau prior to Thornton's arrival was stuck mostly in a Darryl Sutter offense can go take a hike system and Ron Wilson's similar emphasis on defense but still with many teams focusing on the clutch-and-grab defense to stop creative players from scoring consistently.

Marleau, prior to Thornton's arrival in 2005-06, was on an 78 point pace at 23 points in 24 games. It was obvious that the rule changes dramatically altered Marleau's ability to produce in a positive way. Now, it's also obvious that Thornton's acquisition helped Marleau to a degree. However, it has long been a myth perpetuated by the media, Marleau haters, and Thornton lovers that it was mostly Thornton's doing. People have vastly overrated his impact on Marleau.

I agree to an extent that it's unfair to judge Nash's ability based on his point totals with the Jackets. However, I also don't think he's going to turn back into the 40 goal form he was at one point. He's likely a 70 point player in San Jose at best given the way the team plays, the talent depth that it has which means the offense gets spread out, and the lack of focus any one particular player will get with regards to getting offensive zone starts and favorable matchups.

Pinkfloyd is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-22-2012, 09:16 PM
  #425
stalockrox
Registered User
 
stalockrox's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Posts: 4,371
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by sjshark91 View Post
Were these just on Nash or others too?

I would like to see who they have Carter going to.
I only caught the Nash part.

stalockrox is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Forum Jump


Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 10:25 AM.

monitoring_string = "e4251c93e2ba248d29da988d93bf5144"
Contact Us - HFBoards - Archive - Privacy Statement - Terms of Use - Advertise - Top - AdChoices

vBulletin Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
HFBoards.com is a property of CraveOnline Media, LLC, an Evolve Media, LLC company. 2014 All Rights Reserved.