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Antoine Vermette to PHX for '12 2nd (OTT), '13 Cond 4th, G Curtis McElhinney

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Old
02-22-2012, 01:38 PM
  #101
CapnCornelius
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Originally Posted by 1857 Howitzer View Post
It's getting old all ready and we are just getting started. Howson could sign Weber for 5 years 1 mill per but it would be a bad deal because Howson made it.
Weber wouldn't sign with Howson for $10 million. You think he wants to fall for a Wisniewski bait and switch? "Trust me kid, this team's going places! I have a plan this time!!"

People have got to get the idea that Howson's got some master plan to take the savings and plow it into a guy like Weber out of their head. The plan is a long term rebuild which is going to take years. Shedding salary is about saving money during a time that they fully plan to have revenues decrease. Don't expect the dollars saved to be re-spent any time soon.

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02-22-2012, 01:41 PM
  #102
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Originally Posted by CapnCornelius View Post
Weber wouldn't sign with Howson for $10 million. You think he wants to fall for a Wisniewski bait and switch? "Trust me kid, this team's going places! I have a plan this time!!"

People have got to get the idea that Howson's got some master plan to take the savings and plow it into a guy like Weber out of their head. The plan is a long term rebuild which is going to take years. Shedding salary is about saving money during a time that they fully plan to have revenues decrease. Don't expect the dollars saved to be re-spent any time soon.
I don't buy it. Noway Howson sold that plan to a businessman. Then the owner would have to question what Howson was doing previously, the plan had to be about improving, I doubt the owner is interested in starting over after going financially this far.



























wait, never mind, I just described a competent owner, silly me, carry on.

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02-22-2012, 01:41 PM
  #103
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3,75 million / season should bring in a top-6 forward, which is better than what Vermette was for the past two seasons. In addition we got some draft picks. Can't really complain about this trade. Vermette was underperfoming for a good while, wasn't that the kind of players we wanted to get rid of?

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02-22-2012, 01:42 PM
  #104
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Originally Posted by GoChill View Post
Per Gare Joyce's book the odds of a 2nd rounder going on to play 400 NHL games is about 15%
Vermette was a second rounder and he has played more than 400 games, so maybe you guys will turn the pick into a player of that quality.

Kidding, of course. I come in peace. Seems like a deal that you can understand from both sides. A player like Vermette would usually draw a little more at the trade cut-off, but asking a team to put more than $10 million on its books is a hard sell. Getting that money off your books and a second is pretty good for a guy it seems needs a change of scenery to get back in form. From that perspective, it seems like a decent deal for your team.

For ours, we needed depth. Getting a guy with two-way instincts who can actually center a line, play a bit shorthanded, and wins more faceoffs than he loses fits right in with what the Coyotes hope to be at their best. So, it's aspirational and expensive for the Yotes, but they needed someone.

What can you guys tell us about him? Looks like he plays on the wing a fair bit -- it's tough to figure out what his lines have been this year.

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02-22-2012, 01:43 PM
  #105
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I can't even get through the second page with this.... Have you guys watched the same Vermette I have? The guy who has one, yes one, 60 pt season and one, yes one, 50 pt season. He has not been good and the fact he has almost $12MM left on his contract over three more years. Yes, a salary dump but he had to go to a team that could actually take on salary this year and beyond. It's a mid 2nd and a potential 4th next year. McBackup was merely to keep the contracts for Phoenix under 50.

Now before you explode too far keep in mind that Pahlsson is likely to get a 3rd and possibly a 2nd for the mere fact he has an expiring contract. Don't freak when we hear 3rd or even 4th for Sammy.

Really, look at the situation. Vermette's value is low and he doesn't have significant upside. No way did we want to keep a $3,75MM faceoff specialist on this team. You can get those for < $1MM.

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02-22-2012, 01:43 PM
  #106
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No problem with this deal. Vermette was useless on this team, he's fine for a contender but we are far from it...obviously. I think this helps Brass from getting traded, which is awesome.

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02-22-2012, 01:44 PM
  #107
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Seems about right. Would have been nice to squeeze a late first or a decent prospect, but this was about the best we could do with his contract.

The trade for him was a good one and he helped us into the playoffs. The signing was decent at the time, but now he's overpaid. He might do well in Phoenix with Tippett and the rest of the ex-Jackets down there.

Honestly, if we are going to have 2 of Brassard/Carter/Johansen/(insert new acquisition here?) as our top 2 centers next year, do we really want to be paying 3.75 m for Vermetter to center the 3rd line? Letestu and DMac (if he is resigned) can nicely fill the bottom 2 center roles and their combined salary will be likely half of what Vermette is getting paid. Then we can see if Jenner can step up to the plate in a couple of years.

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Old
02-22-2012, 01:45 PM
  #108
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Great move.

Vermette has 319 points in 600 career games-and he's having a season for a 30 year old which for a guy due $3.75m for the next three years is not reassuring.

The Jackets were very fortunate to find someone to take him off their hands. Any return at all is a bonus.

There isn't a GM who has ever been drunk enough while trading to part with even the lowest of first round picks for a Vermette-type player.

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02-22-2012, 01:46 PM
  #109
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Originally Posted by CitizenCoyote View Post
Vermette was a second rounder and he has played more than 400 games, so maybe you guys will turn the pick into a player of that quality.

Kidding, of course. I come in peace. Seems like a deal that you can understand from both sides. A player like Vermette would usually draw a little more at the trade cut-off, but asking a team to put more than $10 million on its books is a hard sell. Getting that money off your books and a second is pretty good for a guy it seems needs a change of scenery to get back in form. From that perspective, it seems like a decent deal for your team.

For ours, we needed depth. Getting a guy with two-way instincts who can actually center a line, play a bit shorthanded, and wins more faceoffs than he loses fits right in with what the Coyotes hope to be at their best. So, it's aspirational and expensive for the Yotes, but they needed someone.

What can you guys tell us about him? Looks like he plays on the wing a fair bit -- it's tough to figure out what his lines have been this year.
Vermette hasn't fit in with any line this season. He has been tried with Nash, Carter, Umberger, Brassard, Prospal, and eventually he was just stuck on the 3rd line with Pahlsson and Dorsett.

He used to be a different player, but as of right now, Phoenix is getting a player that is a decent checker, he isn't afraid of hitting, but he has poor offensive awareness, he is to confident in his own skills which lead him to making awful mistakes (example: he thinks he can stick handle), and he really doesn't shoot much. If you are looking for a checker you might have found one as long as he isn't the best checker on his line, but if you think you got someone who is going to put up points, obviously anything can happen when a guy is traded, but from his play the past 2 seasons you are going to be very disappointed.

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02-22-2012, 01:47 PM
  #110
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Some people collect coins, others stamps. Howson's fetish seems to be with failure NHL goalies

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02-22-2012, 01:47 PM
  #111
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Originally Posted by CapnCornelius View Post
Not going to sugar coat it...

McElhinney is one of the worst goalies I've ever watched. He was generally poor in Anaheim. When Hiller was pulled on a bad night and he was brought in, I feared the team woud actually give up double digits.

I sincerely hope this trade means that Legace will get a two-way deal if we trade Sanford or (God willing) Mason because the alternative is truly frightening.

This is a salary dump. Hopefully the 2nd can be packaged with our second to get another pick in the first round or something of value because the return on this trade does not wow me.
McElhinney was took for too much players of Phoenix under agreement.

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02-22-2012, 01:48 PM
  #112
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So... it's not a first round pick, and McElhinney isn't a starter, and it was done by Howson. Ergo, this trade is G-DAWFUL.

What did we acquire him for, again? A 2nd and half a season of Pascal Leclaire?

I'd say we did okay.

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02-22-2012, 01:49 PM
  #113
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Oh my God.



GOOD JOB SCOTT! WHOO!
Did you even read the second sentence of that tweet?

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02-22-2012, 01:49 PM
  #114
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Originally Posted by CapnCornelius View Post
Weber wouldn't sign with Howson for $10 million. You think he wants to fall for a Wisniewski bait and switch? "Trust me kid, this team's going places! I have a plan this time!!"

People have got to get the idea that Howson's got some master plan to take the savings and plow it into a guy like Weber out of their head. The plan is a long term rebuild which is going to take years. Shedding salary is about saving money during a time that they fully plan to have revenues decrease. Don't expect the dollars saved to be re-spent any time soon.
Not sure what this has to do with my post.

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02-22-2012, 01:50 PM
  #115
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Its funny reading people talk about the cap space saved...remember, we still have the same guy who signed the 3rd liner to that money!
It is funny because had he continued with 60 pt seasons we would have called Howson a friggin' genious for getting him on such a great contract. 65 pts, $3.75MM is a very solid top 6 player. Something Vermette is not. 40 pts, $3.75MM is a very bad contract for a 3rd line player. Vermette had become a faceoff specialist and hasn't even been playing center. His draws are just as successful as Pahlsson yet he gets pushed to the wing. Tells me his defense and offensive creativity wasn't good enough to play even 3rd line center.

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02-22-2012, 01:52 PM
  #116
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Originally Posted by Viqsi View Post
A 2nd and half a season of Pascal Leclaire?
Actually we got an upcoming UFA goalie with a tummy ache and won't be able to play.

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I'd say we did okay.
Vermette for a second? Depends on what your goals were I guess. We didn't get anything to help "reshape our team" as Howson put it. At least not in this deal.

It's quite possible all we got was money off the books. AKA, Klesa... The next season....

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02-22-2012, 01:54 PM
  #117
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Seems about right. Would have been nice to squeeze a late first or a decent prospect, but this was about the best we could do with his contract.

The trade for him was a good one and he helped us into the playoffs. The signing was decent at the time, but now he's overpaid. He might do well in Phoenix with Tippett and the rest of the ex-Jackets down there.

Honestly, if we are going to have 2 of Brassard/Carter/Johansen/(insert new acquisition here?) as our top 2 centers next year, do we really want to be paying 3.75 m for Vermetter to center the 3rd line? Letestu and DMac (if he is resigned) can nicely fill the bottom 2 center roles and their combined salary will be likely half of what Vermette is getting paid. Then we can see if Jenner can step up to the plate in a couple of years.
Vermette was brought in to be a top 6 forward...which he never really became.

In concept, I'm fine ditching him and advocated as much some time ago.

With Letestu's injury issues, best add some depth at center. Mackenzie needs to be resigned...but the numbers have gotta work out right or you're right back to overpaying a bottom 6 player.

Brassard's game, while improved, still has issues. And the faceoff circle is chief amongst them. I'd really like to move him to wing, but you've gotta get a center in the Nash or Carter trades to make that happen and I'm not sure if that's in the cards.

What's troubling is that we're right back to penciling in a young player in Johansen into the top 6 and hoping for the best assuming Carter is traded and I think that's likely.

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02-22-2012, 01:57 PM
  #118
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This is going to be a long and painful rebuild with "Scottie Don't" behind the wheel. Get used to it. Nothing to really debate at this point. Just sit back and let the fun begin.......

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02-22-2012, 01:57 PM
  #119
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Originally Posted by CapnCornelius View Post
I'll wager that 3 of our centers from the beginning of the season will be gone before the deadline.

I sincerely hope that Mackenzie is getting re-signed after its all said and done and that a center is acquired in one of the Nash/Carter deals. And, please, not Brandon Dubinsky.
I think the best chance at acquiring another center would be Loktionov or Johannson (CAPS) but that's unlikely. I could also see a guy like Letestu playing 3rd line center next year or possibly even Jenner on the 4th line....

Not sayign that's a good thing but there are low cost options for those bottom 6 guys. I also don't want Dubinsky at this point.

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02-22-2012, 02:04 PM
  #120
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Good luck in Phonex Vermette, a very likable guy!

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02-22-2012, 02:07 PM
  #121
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I'd still like to bring back Manny. If we do trade Nash, he'd be a good guy to bring back in for leadership.

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02-22-2012, 02:15 PM
  #122
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02-22-2012, 02:20 PM
  #123
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Originally Posted by CapnCornelius View Post
Vermette was brought in to be a top 6 forward...which he never really became.

In concept, I'm fine ditching him and advocated as much some time ago.

With Letestu's injury issues, best add some depth at center. Mackenzie needs to be resigned...but the numbers have gotta work out right or you're right back to overpaying a bottom 6 player.

Brassard's game, while improved, still has issues. And the faceoff circle is chief amongst them. I'd really like to move him to wing, but you've gotta get a center in the Nash or Carter trades to make that happen and I'm not sure if that's in the cards.

What's troubling is that we're right back to penciling in a young player in Johansen into the top 6 and hoping for the best assuming Carter is traded and I think that's likely.
Fair points. With respect to penciling in Johansen - at this point, it seems unlikely that we are going to be in Win Now mode next year. Maybe we'll surprise but it would be more like Ottawa this year if that happens. So, 2nd line center, with the occasional bump-down to 4th seems like it would be reasonable for Johansen next year during this so-called 'rebuild'.

Right now, I could see flanking him with Prospal and Umberger to help with his development. Although, truth be told, I'd be fine with Umberger being traded right now and I'm not sure who we'll get to play on the first line if Carter and Nash are gone and Prospal and Umby are on the 2nd line.

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02-22-2012, 02:20 PM
  #124
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My reaction to this is meh. If Kyle Quincey got a first, why could we only get a 2nd for Vermette?

I like getting his contract off the books though, he has been WAY awful this year.

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02-22-2012, 02:27 PM
  #125
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My reaction to this is meh. If Kyle Quincey got a first, why could we only get a 2nd for Vermette?

I like getting his contract off the books though, he has been WAY awful this year.
I think you answered your own question.

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