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"Aww, that's Nash-ty." Nash Rumors Part V: McKenzie says down to Rangers/Sharks

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Old
02-23-2012, 12:27 PM
  #751
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Originally Posted by elliot878 View Post
Hey guys, constant reader, very very rare poster.

Thought I'd chime in with the new information presented by Larry Brookes in his article today:

@NYP_Brooksie: To Nash or Not to Nash? That is the question as Slats' patient plan faces 27 hour test. Today's Column. http://t.co/jAQ2Ab5Q

A couple snippets:

"Sources familiar with the parameters of the discussions between Sather and Columbus counterpart Scott Howson have told The Post the Rangers have designated Ryan McDonagh, Michael Del Zotto, 2009 first-rounder Chris Kreider and 2011 first-rounder J.T. Miller as untouchables"

Have to say that list of untouchables puts me very much at ease. I do NOT want to see any of our roster blue liners go for Nash. Definitely would like to see what Miller, and especially Kreider can bring to the Rangers in the future.

"[Sather] is prepared to send Brandon Dubinsky, Christian Thomas, and perhaps 2010 first-rounder Dylan McIlrath plus a first round pick to Columbus in order to bring the 6-foot-4, 220-pound, nine-year veteran to Broadway."

Sounds like this is the package Sather is dangling/hoping Howson will come down to.

"Sather has been unwilling to include promising 20-year-old defenseman Tim Erixon .... though Howson has expressed interest"

Unwilling doesnt quite translate to untouchable. Slats will surely have to sweeten his offer to land Nash. With the players labeled untouchable, wouldn't surprise me if Erixon replacing McIlrath is the sweetener.

Brookes goes on to point out the obvious, how Slats current offer probably will need sweetening for CBJ not to hold off til the draft, and how the Rangers next two games will determine whether or not Slats sweetens the deal.

My guess for our highest offer before the deadline (not saying this gets it done) would be:

Dubinsky + Erixon + Thomas + 2012 First

That would be a deal I could live with. Biggest worry after acquiring Nash is how we'll give guys like Stepan, McDonagh, Del Zotto, Hagelin their raises when the time comes, and stay under the cap.

Sorry if the quotes arent in boxes, posting from phone using the quick reply.
Welcome, and the people in favor of the deal, for the most part, would agree that the package you listed there is the likely deal that gets done.

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02-23-2012, 12:28 PM
  #752
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I just can't resist. People already giving the guy cover and he's not in the colors yet. Amazing.

Every thing I've ever seen from Rangers fans refutes what you just stated here.

This is an ELITE player we are discussing, IMO.

At that price, and all the hype about him he damn well better be "THE MAN". If not, I can almost guarantee he'll have problems with fans. Rangers fans better see solid 30 - 30 production, and a guy that plays at least as hard in not harder than Dubi does. You don't pay $7.8 million for decent production & performance. IMO, with the talent he has around him, a strong argument could be made that he should exceed career averages and climb into the elite category. I know I would not be alone in that opinion.

If decent or better than average production and play is all we can expect than why the hell would we do it?
I doubt that 30/30 is going to be a problem for Nash.

What I meant is that he's not coming in here to carry the Rangers franchise.

Playing with players like Richards and Gaborik and Callahan and Stepan, I absolutely expect 35+ and 35+ from Nash. Which is a little more than what has been averaging on a piss poor columbus team.

I expect that Nash will increase his point production anywhere between 15%-25% which equates to 12-15 mor epoints a year.

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02-23-2012, 12:28 PM
  #753
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Rick Nash was BORN to play New York Rangers hockey in the offensive zone. He gets 95% of his goals within 3 ft of the net. Can skate, is a big body, and has what would easily become the best set of hands on the team by a country mile.

If we get Nash, imho, this team goes from ~#10 offensive team to top 3 overnight.
Except, off course that he does not use his big body all that much.

how many times have we said that about player X? Gaborik can create offense by himself. We need to get someone to help Gaborik. Richards is a great playmaker and creates offense. We need to find someone to can help Richards. Nash is a great scorer. how long until we are discussing the need to find someone to play with Nash?

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02-23-2012, 12:28 PM
  #754
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Originally Posted by Inferno View Post
Rick Nash was BORN to play New York Rangers hockey in the offensive zone. He gets 95% of his goals within 3 ft of the net. Can skate, is a big body, and has what would easily become the best set of hands on the team by a country mile.

If we get Nash, imho, this team goes from ~#10 offensive team to top 3 overnight.

Nash gets no love because of where he has played and who he plays with night in and night out.
Adding Nash does NOT make this team suddenly go from 10th offensively to 3rd.

Again, people continue to overrate the impact of one player in the NHL. Nash is not Malkin or Crosby.

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02-23-2012, 12:29 PM
  #755
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Aside from the long-term cap implications, which we really know very little about, there isn't much "risk" involved here at all. People act as if we're gutting the team for Nash. We're not.
Apparently trading an overpaid third line player and prospects for Nash is "overpaying" to some. I don't get it.

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02-23-2012, 12:29 PM
  #756
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I could probably go through this entire thread to get my answer but that seems rather daunting

What are Rangers fans opinion on your GM/organization trying to get Nash on the roster?

I can't help but think it's a terrible idea and for the life of me can't figure out why you guys would be pursuing him when it will cost so much to get him.. especially when your team is so damn good as it is. Are you guys willing to mess with the psyche of the locker room and losing key/hardworking guys to get a big name player like him?

No doubt Nash would be an exciting player to have but again.. I just can't fathom why the Rangers would risk so much just to have him in a Ranger sweater when your team is primed for a Cup run as it is. Wouldn't it make more sense to just get some depth?

Anyway, hope I didn't come off as a wet blanket or anything! I'm genuinely curious is all to what you, the fans think about this.
This rangers team really is not "so damn good"

what it is, is SPECTACULAR defensively, SPECTACULAR between the pipes, and borderline AWFUL in the offensive zone. the top 10 in goals scored is really more of a reflection of how good we are defensively and how well we pressure the puck...also our shooting percentage has got to be abnormally high...i can't seem to find the stats, but considering how low we are in shots per game and how high we are in goals per game, that S% must be very high compared to most other teams. which means we've either got a very skilled team, which anyone who has watched this team knows we don't, or we have a very lucky team. i think it's more that that anything else.

The teams with the best chances to win the cup usually have all 3 things going for them. High G/G, Low GA/G and a high SV%

Rangers need some more offense.

Also, getting Nash helps this team become far more balanced than ppl give them credit for. if you wanted you could put a superstar on each of our top 3 lines and just dare the opposition to shut them down, OR you could stack the hell out of one line and play them for 30 mins a night. Gives you so many options. When the other team puts their 4th line out for a defensive zone draw, you put Nash-Richards-Gaborik and watch them poop their pants.

When the other team loads up on a shut down line to stop your stars, you split them up and force them to try to shut down 3 strong lines.

Seriously, look at this roster, hypothetically, next year:

First line: Rick Nash - Brad Richards - Ryan Callahan
First line: Artem Anisimov - Derek Stepan - Marian Gaborik
Second line: Chris Kreider - JT Miller - Carl Hagelin
Third/Fourth Line: Rupp - Boyle - Prust


There is no team in the league that can put out that combination of size, speed, skill, defensive awareness, etc on a night in and night out basis. Could we lose? Of course. But, it becomes a lot harder.

Whats wrong with turning a Great team, to an even Greater team? I don't get the problem.

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02-23-2012, 12:29 PM
  #757
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Originally Posted by elliot878 View Post
Hey guys, constant reader, very very rare poster.

Thought I'd chime in with the new information presented by Larry Brookes in his article today:

@NYP_Brooksie: To Nash or Not to Nash? That is the question as Slats' patient plan faces 27 hour test. Today's Column. http://t.co/jAQ2Ab5Q

A couple snippets:

"Sources familiar with the parameters of the discussions between Sather and Columbus counterpart Scott Howson have told The Post the Rangers have designated Ryan McDonagh, Michael Del Zotto, 2009 first-rounder Chris Kreider and 2011 first-rounder J.T. Miller as untouchables"

Have to say that list of untouchables puts me very much at ease. I do NOT want to see any of our roster blue liners go for Nash. Definitely would like to see what Miller, and especially Kreider can bring to the Rangers in the future.

"[Sather] is prepared to send Brandon Dubinsky, Christian Thomas, and perhaps 2010 first-rounder Dylan McIlrath plus a first round pick to Columbus in order to bring the 6-foot-4, 220-pound, nine-year veteran to Broadway."

Sounds like this is the package Sather is dangling/hoping Howson will come down to.

"Sather has been unwilling to include promising 20-year-old defenseman Tim Erixon .... though Howson has expressed interest"

Unwilling doesnt quite translate to untouchable. Slats will surely have to sweeten his offer to land Nash. With the players labeled untouchable, wouldn't surprise me if Erixon replacing McIlrath is the sweetener.

Brookes goes on to point out the obvious, how Slats current offer probably will need sweetening for CBJ not to hold off til the draft, and how the Rangers next two games will determine whether or not Slats sweetens the deal.

My guess for our highest offer before the deadline (not saying this gets it done) would be:

Dubinsky + Erixon + Thomas + 2012 First

That would be a deal I could live with. Biggest worry after acquiring Nash is how we'll give guys like Stepan, McDonagh, Del Zotto, Hagelin their raises when the time comes, and stay under the cap.

Sorry if the quotes arent in boxes, posting from phone using the quick reply.

My thoughts exactly. Im thinking this has been Sathers plan all along with this. Let Howson "talk you into" including Erixon so he thinks hes the one driving the negotiations.
If that doesnt do it, so be it.

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02-23-2012, 12:29 PM
  #758
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Originally Posted by Trxjw View Post
I think the answer is pretty simple: We're not pursuing him at a cost that is uncomfortable for our organization. Brooks reported that our offer is Dubinsky, Thomas, McIlrath, and a 1st round pick. Nash is a definitive upgrade on Dubinsky. Thomas is a promising player, but is probably two years away from the NHL, if he makes it at all. McIlrath is likely to be an NHLer in some capacity, but is probably 3 years away from realizing his potential at the pro level. The 1st rounder likely won't have any impact on this team for 4+ years.

So when you look at it in terms of the "big picture" we're getting an immediate improvement over a guy who has been disappointing this year and dealing away assets that may or may not have an impact on this team down the line.

This team's issue isn't depth or role players. We have those in abundance. What we lack is offensive prowess up front. The market is thin for top-six upgrades, so why not bring in a guy who not only fills that void, but excels in that role?

Aside from the long-term cap implications, which we really know very little about, there isn't much "risk" involved here at all. People act as if we're gutting the team for Nash. We're not.
Exactly. Part of the reason to build up organizational depth and assets to be able to make trades like the one for Nash, in order to bring in an element they don't currently have.

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02-23-2012, 12:30 PM
  #759
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I'd prefer to trade McIlrath rather than Erixon but that's not gonna happen.

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02-23-2012, 12:32 PM
  #760
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Holik was never going to be more than what he was when he signed here. The fact that he didn't live up to UNREASONABLE expectations is not his fault. The Rangers needed a player like Holik, they went out and paid a premium for Holik. To expect him to be more than who he was is not realistic.
When paying someone top-line money, you expect top-line play.
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Gaborik is not a top 20 player and he's getting a measly 300K less on average. Nash need to do one thing and one thing only. Come in and score goals. Continue his 35-40 goal pace, and get his assist totals up to the 35-40 assist pace and he's MORE than worth the 7.8 he's getting.
Two years ago Gaborik was a top-20 player. Last year, for various reasons, he was not. This year, he is playing at a high level and subjugated his game to fit what Torts demands.
Quote:
Yes, I believe that Nash is going to come here and be as much a complimentary player that Gaborik is. Nash is going to be no more or less important to this team than Richards or Gaborik or Callahan is. The fact is he's not coming in to be the face of the Rangers. He's not coming in with nearly the same amount of pressure to carry a franchise than he has had to deal with while in Columbus.
Gaborik is not a complimentary player. And as already stated, remember how the scrutiny was on him last year when he was not producing. Nash, being one of the highest paid players in the league, will not be complimentary.

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02-23-2012, 12:33 PM
  #761
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Whats wrong with turning a Great team, to an even Greater team? I don't get the problem.
Apparently there's no room for improvement.

Complacency is the worst mindset.

Adding Nash vastly improves this team's offense--- and personally, I wouldn't stop there. I want to add a bottom-6 faceoff guy and a vet dman, too. Look at what the 94 team did trade wise. They were the best team in the league, and they could still improve; who woulda thunk it?

Personally, Nash/Ott/Allen would be a perfect deadline.

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02-23-2012, 12:34 PM
  #762
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Originally Posted by elliot878 View Post
Hey guys, constant reader, very very rare poster.

Thought I'd chime in with the new information presented by Larry Brookes in his article today:

@NYP_Brooksie: To Nash or Not to Nash? That is the question as Slats' patient plan faces 27 hour test. Today's Column. http://t.co/jAQ2Ab5Q

A couple snippets:

"Sources familiar with the parameters of the discussions between Sather and Columbus counterpart Scott Howson have told The Post the Rangers have designated Ryan McDonagh, Michael Del Zotto, 2009 first-rounder Chris Kreider and 2011 first-rounder J.T. Miller as untouchables"

Have to say that list of untouchables puts me very much at ease. I do NOT want to see any of our roster blue liners go for Nash. Definitely would like to see what Miller, and especially Kreider can bring to the Rangers in the future.

"[Sather] is prepared to send Brandon Dubinsky, Christian Thomas, and perhaps 2010 first-rounder Dylan McIlrath plus a first round pick to Columbus in order to bring the 6-foot-4, 220-pound, nine-year veteran to Broadway."

Sounds like this is the package Sather is dangling/hoping Howson will come down to.

"Sather has been unwilling to include promising 20-year-old defenseman Tim Erixon .... though Howson has expressed interest"

Unwilling doesnt quite translate to untouchable. Slats will surely have to sweeten his offer to land Nash. With the players labeled untouchable, wouldn't surprise me if Erixon replacing McIlrath is the sweetener.

Brookes goes on to point out the obvious, how Slats current offer probably will need sweetening for CBJ not to hold off til the draft, and how the Rangers next two games will determine whether or not Slats sweetens the deal.

My guess for our highest offer before the deadline (not saying this gets it done) would be:

Dubinsky + Erixon + Thomas + 2012 First

That would be a deal I could live with. Biggest worry after acquiring Nash is how we'll give guys like Stepan, McDonagh, Del Zotto, Hagelin their raises when the time comes, and stay under the cap.

Sorry if the quotes arent in boxes, posting from phone using the quick reply.
They don't have Stepan as an untouchable?

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02-23-2012, 12:34 PM
  #763
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I really want the Rangers to keep Dubi. I appreciate Nash's skills, but more and more it's obvious to me that team chemistry can overcome a bit of a skill gap.
Please just stay the course, Glen. (Unless you can get Nash without moving Dubi).
E
Losing the 3rd line grinder is not going to ruin the team chemistry. His importance to this team at this point is slightly higher than Boyle's.

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02-23-2012, 12:34 PM
  #764
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TB, you realize 90% of the people looking at that proposed offer for Nash in Brooks' article are thinking that Sather is trying to steal Nash. I know your hatred for Sather is still palpable, but that offer is not bidding against himself. It's an offer slightly below historical returns for trades for star players.
I get that, but given that there is a very small market that a deal can be done with, I still feel that adding is not necessary. Especially when you consider the cap hit.

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02-23-2012, 12:36 PM
  #765
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They don't have Stepan as an untouchable?
Yeah that has to be a misprint, Stepan would definatly be more untouchable than Miller (among others) I'd think.

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02-23-2012, 12:37 PM
  #766
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Adding Nash does NOT make this team suddenly go from 10th offensively to 3rd.

Again, people continue to overrate the impact of one player in the NHL. Nash is not Malkin or Crosby.
It's actually not that much of a stretch.

Typical Rick Nash season:
35 G, 32A 67P

Typical Brandon Dubinsky season:
17 G, 28A, 45P

Net offensive increase: 22 goals. add 22 goals prorated over our current amt of games played to our current season total and youre looking at the 6th best offense, a stone throw from the 3rd best offense, not including any appreciable increase in offense by moving an offensive force to play with a guy like Richards, or the effects of moving a solid player like Hagelin down a line to help the 3rd line out.

Its not a simple 1:1 mathematical number, but it's not a stretch at ALL to say that adding Nash to this club and only subtracting Dubinsky will have a significant increase in our goal total.

Let's also not forget that that increase in goal total probably leads to ~5-6 more points in the standings, if not more.

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02-23-2012, 12:37 PM
  #767
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This is ludicrous. If you think that there is no difference in playing for the Rangers than Columbus, I have no idea of what to say. Every player to have plaid here has discussed being always on display and the added pressure that comes from playing in the MSG. That by itself is a pressure cooker. Playing in an empty Columbus arena and playing at the garden infront of NY fans is night and day.

You always hear "unreasonable expectations". How do the players find out about them if it is such a quite, easy place to play in? The Rangers are not the Yankees, but that does not mean that they somehow escape the NY scrutiny.
I haven't heard "unreasonable expectations" coming from a player...would love to know who said that.

Again tell me how many stories for each team in today's Post and News.

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02-23-2012, 12:38 PM
  #768
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They don't have Stepan as an untouchable?
Of course they do.

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02-23-2012, 12:39 PM
  #769
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I doubt that 30/30 is going to be a problem for Nash.
If I had a $ for every person who failed to live up to expectations after a trade or a signing here......

And again, at that price, he had better be more than a 60/70 point player.

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02-23-2012, 12:40 PM
  #770
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There has been a lot of discussion in this thread about whether the Rangers, as currently constructed, can sustain this level of success in the playoffs. Though not an official study by any means of the word, a statistician decided to test whether or not regular season performance was a good indicator of playoff performance:

http://objectivenhl.blogspot.com/201...-part-two.html

His sample consisted of all 1882 playoffs games played between 1988 and 2010. His null hypothesis was that there is no statistically significant difference between regular season winning % and playoff winning %. His conclusion:

Quote:
Although some teams over or underperform in the playoffs relative to their regular season results, this appears to be mostly the product of normal statistical variation. There isn't much support for the idea that there exists an ability to perform in the playoffs that is independent and separate from the ability to perform during the regular season.
Just some food for thought.

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02-23-2012, 12:41 PM
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When paying someone top-line money, you expect top-line play.

The in regards to Holik you were doomed to disappointment immediately upon his signing because he was not going to produce top line points because he was never a top line player.

Two years ago Gaborik was a top-20 player. Last year, for various reasons, he was not. This year, he is playing at a high level and subjugated his game to fit what Torts demands.

Put Nash on the same Rangers team two years ago and I have no doubt his totals are equal to that of Gaborik.

Gaborik is not a complimentary player. And as already stated, remember how the scrutiny was on him last year when he was not producing. Nash, being one of the highest paid players in the league, will not be complimentary.

The scrutiny was on Gabroik last year cause he had NO ONE to share the burden with and as such the "media scrutiny" had to blame someone. The fact that Gabby had no help offensively last year was not his fault. Gaborik did all that he could do and considering he was hurt twice last year I'm not convinced the scrutiny was at all justified.
answers in bold

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02-23-2012, 12:42 PM
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If I had a $ for every person who failed to live up to expectations after a trade or a signing here......

And again, at that price, he had better be more than a 60/70 point player.
you'd have about 20 cents

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02-23-2012, 12:43 PM
  #773
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Apparently trading an overpaid third line player and prospects for Nash is "overpaying" to some. I don't get it.
Add to that the fact that people are so definitive about the lack of impact Nash will have, and it's really kind of puzzling to me.

The guys I worry about dealing are the ones who I think are close to being ready for pro hockey. Thomas and McIlrath are years away. A first round pick is almost certainly years away. So moving one roster player for a better roster player? Seems pretty straightforward to me.

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02-23-2012, 12:43 PM
  #774
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There has been a lot of discussion in this thread about whether the Rangers, as currently constructed, can sustain this level of success in the playoffs. Though not an official study by any means of the word, a statistician decided to test whether or not regular season performance was a good indicator of playoff performance:

http://objectivenhl.blogspot.com/201...-part-two.html

His sample consisted of all 1882 playoffs games played between 1988 and 2010. His null hypothesis was that there is no statistically significant difference between regular season winning % and playoff winning %. His conclusion:



Just some food for thought.
i agree, which is why most of us are in FAVOR of bringing in Nash. Rangers are a good team. they *could* win the SC as is. Rangers w/ Nash -Dubi are a BETTER team, that *should* win the SC.

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02-23-2012, 12:43 PM
  #775
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Originally Posted by Inferno View Post

First line: Rick Nash - Brad Richards - Ryan Callahan
First line: Artem Anisimov - Derek Stepan - Marian Gaborik
Second line: Chris Kreider - JT Miller - Carl Hagelin
Third/Fourth Line: Rupp - Boyle - Prust
We already have all those pieces but one and you seem to think we have a borderline disgusting group of forwards.

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