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ATD 2012 - Draft Thread VI

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02-25-2012, 03:27 PM
  #276
Hawkey Town 18
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02-25-2012, 03:44 PM
  #277
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I'm not sure where I'm going to play this guy yet, he could be the puckwinner for Stanfield & Hyland or form a punishing 4th line with Trevor Linden. Historically, his reputation and being a "fan favorite" has led him to being taken too early compared to where he should be. But now, he is an elite bottom 6 player with a surprisingly strong voting record, LW Adam Graves



1x NHL All Star Game Participant
2x Stanley Cup Champion
2x Top 12 Goals(5, 12
4x Top 10 SHG(4, 5, 6, 10)
8th Hart Voting
3x Top 9 Selke Voting(5, 5, 9)
3x Top 2 Selke Voting Among LW(1, 2, 2)
2x Top 8 LW All Star(2, 8)*
*8th was with 2 voting points
King Clancy Memorial Trophy Winner, 1994
Bill Masterson Memorial Trophy Winner, 2001
26.6% career PK usage(32% if you remove first four years of career)

Quote:
Graves earned respect throughout the league for his goal scoring ability, tough work in the corners and the slot and his tireless work off the ice for charity.

Born in Toronto, Graves played Junior B with King City, just north of his place of birth. Already a highly regarded amateur, he joined the Windsor Spitfires in 1985-86 where he averaged over a point per game as an OHL rookie. He caught the attention of a host of pro scouts and was drafted 22nd overall by the Detroit Red Wings at the 1986 NHL Entry Draft.

During his first year as the prospect for an NHL team, Graves scored 100 points and led the powerhouse Spitfires to the Memorial Cup tournament. Throughout the 1986-87 season Windsor was the top-rated junior outfit in Canada but they were upset by the Medicine Hat Tigers in the Memorial Cup final. Graves returned for one last year of junior in 1987-88 but did suit up for nine big league games for Detroit.

Graves spent most of the 1988-89 season with the Wings in a support role. It seemed like more of the same through the first 13 games of 1989-90 before he was sent to Edmonton as part of the package assembled to bring Jimmy Carson home to Detroit. This was Graves' first big break in the NHL as he scored 21 points in 63 games while teaming with Martin Gelinas and former Wings teammate Joe Murphy on the Oilers' "Kid Line." The inexperienced trio continued to excel in the playoffs and helped Edmonton win its fifth Stanley Cup in seven seasons.

During the 1990-91 season, Graves continued to fill a checking role but was unsatisfied. On the eve of the 1991-92 season he was signed by the New York Rangers as a free agent and was asked to play the role of two way power forward for the first time since junior. He responded to the challenge with 26 and 36 goal performances in his first two seasons in New York. During the first of these he helped the Rangers win the President's trophy after amassing a league-high 105 points. Even though Graves improved in 1992-93, the team fell to sixth place in the Patrick Division and out of the playoffs.

Graves broke through with 52 goals and helped the Rangers lead the NHL with 112 points in 1993-94. In the process he entered the record books as the first ex-Edmonton Oiler to record a 50-goal season. That spring his ten post-season goals helped the Blueshirts win their first Stanley Cup since 1939-40. Graves was named to the NHL's second All-Star Team at left wing and was the recipient of the King Clancy Memorial trophy in recognition of his continuing work with charitable causes.

Through the remainder of the decade the Rangers failed to make a significant impact in the playoffs but Graves continued to be a reliable scorer. He topped the 30-goal mark twice while supplying leadership and grit for New York.

As the 90s came to a close, so was Graves time with the Rangers. After capturing the Bill Masterton Trophy in 2001, Graves signed with the San Jose Sharks where he was a leader both on and off the ice for the young talented Sharks for two seasons before announcing his retirement in April 2004.
http://www.legendsofhockey.net/Legen...p?player=10556

Quote:
In an era when the NHL was being dominated by hockey's version of globalization, Adam Graves was very much the traditional Canadian hockey player.

"He's very physical, he will do anything to get his team geared up," said one NHL coach. "He plays the game every inch of that ice. He wants to command, and he commands a lot of respect out there. He's a total player. He's a spark. He's an inspiration. There's an MVP guy, let me tell you. He's just an outstanding player and an outstanding person."

"Adam was always the type of kid you wanted to make it," Colin Campbell, his former coach said. "He is conscientious, nice, hard-working, respectful. And usually those guys don't make it. Adam is the milk-drinker who goes through hell for you."

He played a rugged, aggressive game of hockey, with a mean streak that enhanced his talent and inspired his teammates. He parked his often bruised body in front of the net, especially when playing on the power play. Graves was a willing fighter, often known as Mark Messier's bodyguard, both in Edmonton and later New York. Kevin Lowe, teammate of both in both cities, called Graves "the sheriff" for his willingness to defend fellow Rangers.

Graves was drafted by the Detroit Red Wings out of the Windsor Spitfires of the OHL. He finished the 1988 season with the Wings after leading the Spitfires to the OHL championship. He split the 1988-89 season with the Wings and their AHL affiliate. He was quickly traded in the beginning of the 1989-90 season in a huge trade. Graves, Petr Klima, Joe Murphy and Jeff Sharples were all moved to Edmonton in exchange for Michigan-born Jimmy Carson and long time Oiler tough guy Kevin McClelland.

Graves filled a similar role to McClelland while in Edmonton, but possessed much more promise which never really was tapped in the City of Champions. He played 2 seasons with the Oilers, scoring 15 goals in 139 games. He teamed with Martin Gelinas and Joe Murphy to form the Oilers version of the "Kid Line." The trio combined speed and youthful enthusiasm in a supporting role in the Oilers 1990 Stanley Cup Championship.

The New York Rangers plucked Graves away from Edmonton in 1991 via the free agency market. It was in New York that Graves blossomed into a star. He erupted in 1991-92 to score 26 goals, doubling his career total. The next year he improved to 36 goals and by 1993-94 he joined Vic Hadfield as only the second New York Ranger in history to score 50 goals. In fact Graves' 52 goals better Hadfield's then-team record by 2. Graves would add 10 goals and 17 points in 23 playoff games to help bring Lord Stanley's Cup back to Broadway for the first time since 1940.

Graves would have trouble reaching the same plateau again. Playing in pain but rarely missing a game, he became a consistent 20 goal scorer in the years following. His body was banged up, later in his career he went through a tough time, losing his infant son and his father to deaths within months.

Through it all, Graves played with the highest dignity and class, and truly bled Rangers blue. The 1994 King Clancy Memorial winner and 2000 Bill Masterton Trophy winner, Graves participates in many activities involving under privileged kids in New York.
http://nyrangerslegends.blogspot.com...am-graves.html

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He has become a star. That is his story now. The Ranger scoring record he broke was 22 years old. He has been the best player on what has been the best team in the league for the entire season. He was named to the All-Star team for the first time. There is a chance, depending on the Rangers' finish, that he might be the league MVR The contract, of course, has been reworked, and he is on the first year of a six-year deal worth an estimated $14 million.

He still is not a stylist. The total length of all the shots he has used to score his 51 goals probably equals the distance on one Brett Hull slap shot. The average Graves goal usually involves some pushing, some shoving, a rebound or maybe a deflection. The puck usually travels no farther than a couple of feet. He is a digger, a worker bee, hitting and jamming and constantly moving. His coach, Mike Keenan, predicted that Graves would score 50 goals this season, but nobody else thought so. Graves himself says about Keenan's prediction. "I would have called his bluff."

"I'm as surprised as anyone he's scored this much," says Smith, who signed Graves as a free agent three years ago. "But do you know why I think he's scoring? I say it's because we need goals from him. If we didn't need goals from him—if we needed some other part of the game—he'd be giving more of some other part of the game. That is the way he is. Whatever you need, that's what he tries to give you. That's his character. Do you know the story of his family? He's from a social-service type of family that tries to help any way possible where there is a need."
http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/vau...72/3/index.htm

Quote:
Graves, the NHL's most highly skilled bodyguard, the Rangers are loaded.

Graves roams the ice, challenging anyone who so much as frowns at Messier, the man who was greeted, upon his 1991 arrival in New York, as the Messiah.
http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/vau...70/4/index.htm

Quote:
Graves’s on-ice career spanned 16 seasons and included 329 goals, countless memorable hits and fights, and a Stanley Cup, with the Rangers in 1994. Those numbers alone, though, are not the only reason the Rangers decided to retire his jersey along with his fellow ’94 teammates Messier, Mike Richter and Brian Leetch.

What Rangers fans came to know was that while Graves was fierce on the ice — he was among the toughest power forwards in the game — he was equally gentle away from the game. His teammates described someone who would pull younger players aside to help them or give advice, a role Messier called invaluable to him as a captain.

Graves’s game was anything but nice. He said when he came into the N.H.L. in 1987, he recognized that he was not a slick puck handler or a natural scorer, so he set out to make a difference in front of the net and in the corners. Many of his goals came on deflections or rebounds, always battling defensemen for position. It was a winning formula. In the ’93-94 season, he scored 52 goals, which was a Rangers record until Jaromir Jagr broke it with 54 in 2004-5.

He was just our foundation,” Leetch said. “We always looked to Mark as our leader, and Mike was our most important player being the goalie, but he was our foundation. He was our heart and soul.”
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/02/03/sp...ref=adamgraves

Quote:
On the ice or off of it, few players have given Rangers fans more to be proud of than Adam Graves. As a player, a leader, and a citizen, Graves was a champion-one of those players who would do whatever needed to be done and do it to the best of his ability.

Graves spent most of his first pro season with the Wings, going 7-5-12 in 60 games as a checker and role player.

The Oilers paired him with former Detroit teammate Joe Murphy and Martin Gelinas on the "Kid Line", a high energy trio that gave the Oilers a lift.

Rangers GM Neil Smith, looking for young legs, speed, and grit, signed Graves...

With the Rangers, Graves found himself in a new role: two-way power forward, usually on the left side of Mark Messier, who came to New York just a few weeks after Graves.

While Graves was earning a reputation as one of the NHL's toughest two-way forwards on the ice...

The front of the net was something that I had a great deal of passion for, but I knew I had to get there on every play-get there, get in position, and locate pucks.

Graves never came close to scoring 50 goals again, but he was a solid contributor through the rest of the decade, twice breaking the 30 goal mark while still providing toughness and leadership.
http://books.google.com/books?id=1wP...hockey&f=false

Quote:
Adam Graves, a potent shooter from the left wing, has turned into the team's newest "character player" by emulating Messier's ethos of intimidation: If an opponent takes a cheap shot at one of his teammates, Graves descends like a meteor, fists flying.
http://books.google.com/books?id=iOM...angers&f=false

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Adam Graves was a hard hitting forward with a good scoring touch.
http://books.google.com/books?id=L80...angers&f=false

Quote:
Rugged and skillful, Adam Graves has learned his NHL lessons well from his mentor, past and present team-mate Messier.
https://www.google.com/search?q=adam...w=1366&bih=638

Quote:
In September 1991 Smith signed Adam Graves, a former Edmonton Oiler who has since become "the NHL's most highly skilled bodyguard".
http://books.google.com/books?id=i_0...angers&f=false

Quote:
The Rangers scored the winning goal after Messier took a slap shot from the point which slammed off Thibault's shin guard. The rebound bounced onto the stick of Adam Graves, who was camped out in front of the goal. Graves on-timed it ...
https://www.google.com/search?q=adam...w=1366&bih=638

Quote:
Sometimes the other two players score 40 or more because the third guy someone such as Adam Graves is the one in the corner, getting killed by a defenseman to free the puck for the finishers.

"Adam, in Game One, anyway, skated better than he had in a long time," Mark Messier said yesterday. "He was stronger on the puck, stronger in the corners, and he played more like we're used to seeing Adam play.

"You know," Messier added, "Adam's had so much trouble with his back for so long that we've forgotten how dominant a player he really can be or (how he can) have the ability to dominate any game in a lot of different areas."

He has shown it everywhere. Graves' speed seems to be giving the Rangers momentum, as well.
http://articles.nydailynews.com/1996...rmance-skating

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Graves, at his best, was that fine hockey combination of grit and skill. He was tough enough to be Messier's bodyguard and skillful enough to put the puck in the net.
http://www.nytimes.com/2001/10/22/sp...ts-graves.html

Quote:
Add another name to the list of Rangers nursing injuries. This time it is Adam Graves, normally a left wing, who has been playing center against Eric Lindros and his Legion of Doom line in the Eastern Conference finals of the Stanley Cup playoffs.
http://www.nytimes.com/1997/05/23/sp...s-hurting.html

Quote:
"It's the way I've played ever since I started," said the winger, a 52-goal scorer during the regular season. "When there are loose pucks, you have to whack ...
https://www.google.com/search?hl=en&...w=1366&bih=638

Quote:
I wasn’t a master of anything,” Graves said. “I tried to play hard all the time. I tried to play honestly. Like every player, I had my faults and I made mistakes. I’m the type of player who would just dump it in and try to run a guy into the boards instead of deke a guy. I always tried to focus on the little things I did well.
http://slapshot.blogs.nytimes.com/20...t-adam-graves/

Quote:
Adam Graves likes hitting. That preference was magnified Tuesday in the small confines of Chicago Stadium as the Edmonton Oilers defeated the Chicago Blackhawks 4-2 in the Campbell Conference final.

Graves was sent out often by coach John Muckler in Edmonton's win Tuesday after the Blackhawks had done most of the bumping in a 5-1 victory in Game 3. He hit everything in sight.
http://pqasb.pqarchiver.com/thestar/...m&pqatl=google

Quote:
It was Graves’s grit and effort and generosity of spirit that was lauded far more than his on-ice success, which was also considerable. Befitting his rough-and-tumble style as a power forward, the Rangers painted his number on the boards in the corners of the Garden rink.
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/02/04/sp...04rangers.html

Quote:
During the second period, while killing a penalty, Graves scooped up a loose puck near center ice, drifted with it to the Washington blue line, whirled around in a spin move away from two Capitals, carried the puck to the far boards, led a chase of four opponents into the left-wing corner, fought off a challenge with one arm, then shielded the puck with his stocky body while dragging it along the back wall with his skates and stick until finally losing possession after 19 seconds had ticked off the penalty. Graves earned a loud ovation as he skated to the bench.
http://www.nytimes.com/1999/03/17/sp...for-goals.html

Quote:
He dedicated himself to preventing goals, to causing traffic jams for attacking forwards and to leaving a slipstream behind for his own teammates to coast along into scoring position. He mucked in the corners. He added to what seems to be a permanent collection of shiners beneath his eyes. His lips grew puffier with each passing game -- not from collagen, but from collisions.
http://www.nytimes.com/1997/05/09/sp...inds-mark.html

Quote:
Adam Graves, Messier's left wing in New York, scored twice and executed some inspirational penalty killing to lead the rout.

Graves, who leads the Rangers with 23 goals, got his teammates excited and the fans cheering late in the first period, while killing a penalty when the Rangers led by 2-0. He took the puck away from Messier behind the Vancouver net and dragged it along the back wall while three other Canucks tried to get it back. Ranger Coach John Muckler called Graves's play in the first period ''one of the greatest displays I've seen in the National Hockey League.''

Muckler added: ''Phenomenal. He did everything. That was very emotional, I think, to watch him play.''
http://www.nytimes.com/1999/02/05/sp...anted=2&src=pm

Quote:
Graves clearly uses Messier as the playmaker, Tony Amonte as the goal-scorer and himself as the checker when he plays on his usual line. And, truth be told, the line is designed to work that way. Leads Team in Penalty Minutes

In a sense, though, Graves walks a tightrope in his role for the Rangers. He is expected to be a tough guy and leads the team with 136 penalty minutes, but he is also expected to produce points.

Graves is one of the Rangers most likely to cruise the rink as an enforcer, making sure that those who dare to hit his teammates know they will have to pay.
http://www.nytimes.com/1993/02/24/sp...rotection.html


Last edited by BillyShoe1721: 03-02-2012 at 02:30 AM.
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02-25-2012, 03:53 PM
  #278
TheDevilMadeMe
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I think Graves was probably at least somewhat overrated by Selke votes due to the fact that he played on such high profile teams in such a high profile role.

Still, that's a good record for someone with grit and passable offense.

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02-25-2012, 03:54 PM
  #279
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I wasn't planning on taking this player with this pick, because I didn't think he would be available. An incredible goal scorer that should work well with setup man Doug Weight on what's looking like will be a dangerous scoring threat of a 4th line. He will also see time on our 2nd PP unit. With the 467th pick, the Chicago Shamrocks select Tommy Smith, LW/C


I'm planning on doing a full bio, but here's a little taste
(PMing next GM)...

Awards and Achievements
2 x Stanley Cup Champion (1906, 1913)
5 x Stanley Cup Finalist (1906, 1911, 1912, 1913, 1917)
2 x Retro Art Ross Trophy (1914, 1915)
2 x Retro Rocket Richard Trophy (1914, 1915)
Retro Hart Trophy (1915)

Career Scoring Records
FAHL
Points – 1st(1906)
Goals – 1st(1906)

IHL
Points – 1st(1907)
Goals – 1st(1907)

WPHL
Points – 1st(1908)
Goals – 1st(1908)

OPHL
Points – 1st(1909), 1st(1911)
Goals – 1st(1909), 1st(1911)

MPHL
Points – 1st(1912)
Goals – 1st(1912)

NHA
Points – 2nd(1913), 1st(1914), 1st(1915)
Goals – 2nd(1913), 1st(1914), 1st(1915), 10th(1916)

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02-25-2012, 03:56 PM
  #280
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Smith's great for an offensively-oriented 4th line. Gritty too. He pretty much prevents the line from being any sort of defensive line though.

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02-25-2012, 04:02 PM
  #281
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Smith's great for an offensively-oriented 4th line. Gritty too. He pretty much prevents the line from being any sort of defensive line though.
I agree with this. An offensive 4th line was the plan. I think our 1st 3 lines will be able to handle our opponents top scoring threats

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02-25-2012, 04:04 PM
  #282
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Smith's great for an offensively-oriented 4th line. Gritty too. He pretty much prevents the line from being any sort of defensive line though.
Not according to Iain, who, from the looks of it, has come to the conclusion that he was skilled defensively based on a couple quotes.

BTW... why take Hadfield over Graves? Anyone?

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02-25-2012, 04:11 PM
  #283
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I wanted Graves. Back to the drawing board.

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02-25-2012, 04:14 PM
  #284
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Not according to Iain, who, from the looks of it, has come to the conclusion that he was skilled defensively based on a couple quotes.

BTW... why take Hadfield over Graves? Anyone?
Where can I find these quotes?

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02-25-2012, 04:23 PM
  #285
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BTW... why take Hadfield over Graves? Anyone?
I didn't know about Graves' Selke Voting Record

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02-25-2012, 04:33 PM
  #286
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Probably but it might be hard to spot when it's lumped in there to consiously trying to skew numbers to win an argument.
I'm still trying to figure out which argument I'm trying to win...

I use a simple standard when evaluating voting. Any player who gets less than one first place or two top-three votes is not counted. Sometimes this means that I end up counting voting down beyond 20th place, and I agree that these votes are increasingly meaningless, but a standard is what it is.

There are probably cases where some local writer is such a homer that he puts a clearly undeserving player first on a ballot or maybe two writers are such homers that they put him in the top three...sure, sure...but I think it is a sensible standard, all the same, and staying consistent to that standard sometimes means that I count only a couple of votes as a meaningful AST placement.


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02-25-2012, 04:37 PM
  #287
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BTW... why take Hadfield over Graves? Anyone?
Beer.

Graves is a terrific bottom-6 player in this thing.

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02-25-2012, 04:53 PM
  #288
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I didn't know about Graves' Selke Voting Record
You know what? Neither did I!

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02-25-2012, 04:54 PM
  #289
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As for those quotes about smith, see hockeyhistorysis.blogspot.com. I am not saying I necessarily agree, more that it is probably a premature conclusion.

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02-25-2012, 04:55 PM
  #290
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Thrashers select Sandis Ozolinsh, D

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02-25-2012, 04:55 PM
  #291
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I think it's very relevant, at least to recent years. I'm fairly certain than Konstantinov, Hatcher, and Stevens are the only defensemen who have been a post-season All Star while scoring fewer than 40 points since Rod Langway.

And it took Hatcher being 5th in plus/minus to get his 2nd Team All Star nod.
You are cheating a bit, as Chelios scored exactly 40 points in 2001-02. Brad McCrimmon scored 42 points in 1987-88, as well.

You can set artificial borders all you like; the simple fact of the matter is that AST voting favors two-way defensemen, as it very well should. Once the most effective two-way players are spoken for, then the stupidity of "hockey card stats" begins, I agree with you. The mediocre offensive defensemen are given more credit than the mediocre defensive defensemen because their achievements are more easily quantifiable (unless you're a ****** Hockey Prospectus blogger, and you think you can measure defensive performance by watching videos of goals against).

Maybe the problem faced by pure defensive defensemen is that they are rarely actually among the best defensemen in the league? Maybe it takes a truly special defensive defenseman like Langway to justify a Norris because an almost complete lack of offensive ability is kind of a weakness in a hockey player?

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02-25-2012, 05:23 PM
  #292
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I'll select an excellent defensive forward to fill in on my LW 3rd line spot..

LW - Percy Galbraith

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02-25-2012, 05:59 PM
  #293
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We'll take

Duncan Keith, D

Can someone PM the net GM please? I'm out the door.

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02-25-2012, 06:00 PM
  #294
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We'll take

Duncan Keith, D

Can someone PM the net GM please? I'm out the door.
I'm on it.

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02-25-2012, 06:04 PM
  #295
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You know what? Neither did I!
Same, though I was still considering him for my 3rd line anyway. The selke record is just a bonus as I'm assuming it's not just a case like we've seen recently of guys with inflated +/- getting votes because "ZOMG, look at the +/-, he has to be good defensively"

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02-25-2012, 08:53 PM
  #296
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Originally Posted by Sturminator View Post
You are cheating a bit, as Chelios scored exactly 40 points in 2001-02. Brad McCrimmon scored 42 points in 1987-88, as well.

You can set artificial borders all you like; the simple fact of the matter is that AST voting favors two-way defensemen, as it very well should. Once the most effective two-way players are spoken for, then the stupidity of "hockey card stats" begins, I agree with you. The mediocre offensive defensemen are given more credit than the mediocre defensive defensemen because their achievements are more easily quantifiable (unless you're a ****** Hockey Prospectus blogger, and you think you can measure defensive performance by watching videos of goals against).

Maybe the problem faced by pure defensive defensemen is that they are rarely actually among the best defensemen in the league? Maybe it takes a truly special defensive defenseman like Langway to justify a Norris because an almost complete lack of offensive ability is kind of a weakness in a hockey player?
Regarding Langway, the discrepancy between his hockey card stats and those of many other ATD defensemen considered to have more skill, is little more than PP time. Last draft I dropped the names of some players who I imagine many people had to be surprised had the same adjusted ESPPG as Langway.

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02-25-2012, 10:21 PM
  #297
Hawkman
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1893 Montreal AAA selects Coach Punch Imlach. Keith Magnuson and Duncan Keith both gone. Meanies.

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02-25-2012, 10:24 PM
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TheDevilMadeMe
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Punch Imlach is a top 10 coach of all time in my mind - in some ways, he's a more accomplished version of Jacques Lemaire. But he combines Lemaire's obsession with defense with Pat Burns' disciplintarianism, so he's not the best fit for every ATD team.

I don't see much difference between Hap Day and Punch Imlach, other than the fact that Imlach has a worse rep for clashing with a certain type of player. Anyone else see it this way?

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02-25-2012, 10:37 PM
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Imlach has been the BCA for a while now. Pick coming in a sec...

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02-25-2012, 10:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by monster_bertuzzi View Post
Imlach has been the BCA for a while now. Pick coming in a sec...
I agree... in a vacuum. He's not the type of coach for every team though.

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