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ATD 2012 - Draft Thread VI

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Old
03-02-2012, 02:37 PM
  #901
markrander87
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
I literally lol'ed at some of those names 70s compared him to. Compable to Hawerchuk? Really?
Sorry just saw this, but yes I lol'd pretty hard at this.

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03-02-2012, 02:42 PM
  #902
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We all make mistakes. I compared Laprade's offense to Ralph Backstrom's after all (obviously underrating Backstrom a lot there)

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Old
03-02-2012, 02:45 PM
  #903
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Originally Posted by Dreakmur View Post
He's proven he can be one of the best coaches in the NHL. He's never had the chance to win in the play-offs in the NHL, but when he did have a chance in the AHL, he won.

There's a difference between the players in the AHL vs NHL, but coaching is the same. Coaching might actully be more impactful in the AHL.



Actually, everything in the ATD is relative. Not everyone here is a star.

Who are my star players? Nicklas Lidstrom and Martin Brodeur. Those guys seem like challenges to coach? It's not like I have Bobby Hull, Maurice Richard, or Eddie Shore.



I wonder if that's because hes never had a great team.....



You obviously don't know much about Barry Trotz. He is a system coach, who demands a certain amount of responsibility from his player, but he's also a player's coach. Trotz has actually been able to get players to buy in without clashing with them. It's actually kind of amazing what he's been able to do in Nashville.
I obviously do know a lot about Barry Trotz. Yeah he's a player's coach but if he feels that the player is shirking on his responsibility within his system (something Kovalchuk is going to do, no ifs ands or buts about it) he's going to LIGHT THAT ****ER UP. Be it in the media or in the room. There is no way that Kovalchuk will respond to that well.

http://prohockeytalk.nbcsports.com/2...nhl-get-a-dog/

From an article on Trotz after being named a Jack Adams finalist last year:

Quote:
I caught up with Coach Trotz the next day in Calgary, and we talked about the game. He told me that once the doors were closed, he had some choice words for the team and that he called out several of the “stars” on the team. His comment was that if you want to be treated like a big dog, then play like a big dog.
Literally searched the internet for two minutes to find those.

His biggest thing with coaching is accountability. All he asks for is accountability and responsibility within his system. Good luck with Kovalchuk doing that.

The reason he hasn't had to burn any bridges is that Poile and him are on the same page. They want the same types of players on their teams. They want guys WHO WILL BE ACCOUNTABLE.

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03-02-2012, 03:06 PM
  #904
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Originally Posted by vecens24 View Post
I obviously do know a lot about Barry Trotz. Yeah he's a player's coach but if he feels that the player is shirking on his responsibility within his system (something Kovalchuk is going to do, no ifs ands or buts about it) he's going to LIGHT THAT ****ER UP. Be it in the media or in the room. There is no way that Kovalchuk will respond to that well.
As a coach, I can definately weigh in on this player coach vs. accountablility thing. They are NOT mutually exclusive. You can be a player's coach and still hold them accountable. That's a very fine line to walk, which is why a lot of people think it can't be done, but there are a few NHL coaches who can do it - Babcock, Torts, and Trotz.

Quote:
http://prohockeytalk.nbcsports.com/2...nhl-get-a-dog/

From an article on Trotz after being named a Jack Adams finalist last year:



Literally searched the internet for two minutes to find those.
There nothing bad in that quote....

Quote:
His biggest thing with coaching is accountability. All he asks for is accountability and responsibility within his system. Good luck with Kovalchuk doing that.
Trotz demands every player's 100%, whatever that might be. As long as the players work defensively, they'll get their respect.

Kovalchuk has proven that he will buy in. He'll be poor defensively, but he will make the effort to buy in, which is what Trotz demands.

Quote:
The reason he hasn't had to burn any bridges is that Poile and him are on the same page. They want the same types of players on their teams. They want guys WHO WILL BE ACCOUNTABLE.
Like the Kostitsyn brothers? Trotz has pretty much worked a miracle with Sergei - getting good production out of him without clashing. We'll see how he handles Andrei.

You really think that Nashville turns away star players? Nobody wants to go there....

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03-02-2012, 03:08 PM
  #905
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Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
Dreakmur's argument basically translates into: "Poor Barry Trotz never had a chance to outcoach anyone in the playoffs, so we shouldn't give any other coaches credit for what they did in the playoffs."
Yeah, that's exactly it...

My argument actually is: "Winning does not equal good coaching, and losing does not equal bad coaching."

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03-02-2012, 03:10 PM
  #906
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Originally Posted by seventieslord View Post

Do you mean, the new “what Pierre Turgeon used to be considered here”?
That's exactly what I meant. For years he was always the best offensive player not taken for a scoring line role. And I think Burch may have taken that spot now that Turgeon has been promoted.

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03-02-2012, 03:13 PM
  #907
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Originally Posted by Nalyd Psycho View Post
That's exactly what I meant. For years he was always the best offensive player not taken for a scoring line role. And I think Burch may have taken that spot now that Turgeon has been promoted.
Heh, looks like Turgeon is currently toiling on a 4th line himself

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03-02-2012, 03:13 PM
  #908
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Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
Heh, looks like Turgeon is currently toiling on a 4th line himself
Shows me for not checking the roster thread.

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Old
03-02-2012, 03:17 PM
  #909
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
Heh, looks like Turgeon is currently toiling on a 4th line himself
I think he makes a great 1st liner














In the MLD

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Old
03-02-2012, 03:18 PM
  #910
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these issues of team chemistry are unpredictable.

i doubt more than a couple of observers would have thought that kovalchuk and jacques lemaire would work together, but kovalchuk apparently loved him.

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Old
03-02-2012, 03:23 PM
  #911
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Originally Posted by nik jr View Post
these issues of team chemistry are unpredictable.

i doubt more than a couple of observers would have thought that kovalchuk and jacques lemaire would work together, but kovalchuk apparently loved him.
People often respond better when you expect more from them instead of less. Maybe Kovalchuk needed a coach to expect and demand that he be an all-around player and help him to do so, instead of just letting him do his thing as an offensive player.

Now Punch Imlach and Kovalchuk might be another story.

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Old
03-02-2012, 03:33 PM
  #912
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Lemaire mellowed out in his old age. This is the guy who drove his former linemate Guy Lafleur out of Montreal.

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Old
03-02-2012, 03:33 PM
  #913
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Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
Lemaire mellowed out in his old age. This is the guy who drove his former linemate Guy Lafleur out of Montreal.
yeah , **** lemaire.

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Old
03-02-2012, 03:53 PM
  #914
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I'll kick off the 4th line with perennial and universal Selke candidate C/RW Ryan Kesler.

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Old
03-02-2012, 03:58 PM
  #915
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How is Kesler as a RW?

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Old
03-02-2012, 03:59 PM
  #916
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
How is Kesler as a RW?
When Sundin was with the Canucks, Kesler was the RW on his line.

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03-02-2012, 04:01 PM
  #917
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i just read in an old paper that DRW were trying in 1957 to trade ted lindsay and glenn hall to chicago for pierre pilote, johnny wilson and another player.

same article says terry sawchuk had a blood disease, which caused his brief retirement in '57.

http://news.google.com/newspapers?id...y+wilson&hl=en


of course, they did not get pilote, and trade of lindsay and hall to chicago was one of the worst trades in history.

Quote:
Originally Posted by overpass View Post
People often respond better when you expect more from them instead of less. Maybe Kovalchuk needed a coach to expect and demand that he be an all-around player and help him to do so, instead of just letting him do his thing as an offensive player.

Now Punch Imlach and Kovalchuk might be another story.
i think that is right.

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Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
Lemaire mellowed out in his old age. This is the guy who drove his former linemate Guy Lafleur out of Montreal.
probably the circumstances were important. lafleur had been the top player on a dynasty and was extremely popular. a player in that situation would probably see less reason to change, since his way had brought great success.

but kovalchuk had played for a bad team and had never won a playoff game.

differences between their eras may also have been important. '80s were an offensive era, but now is a more defensive era, so it could be a smaller change now.

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Old
03-02-2012, 04:01 PM
  #918
seventieslord
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Originally Posted by BenchBrawl View Post
seventieslord is such a Turgeon lover.

Funny thing about Turgeon is even with the amount of production he had , nobody ever loved or hated him.He was like a ghost then one day he was traded elsewhere

I liked Turgeon , but I remember when we had Turgeon , Damphousse and a couple of other forward in the mid-90s, the general feeling from everyone was that Turgeon was such a ''in season stat compiler'' when things didn't matter , I'm sure some of it was unfair but it wasw definitely the case at least a little bit.That's not to say he was a choker or he couldn't score when it counted , but from wha tI remember and what the general feeling was he sure scored a lot of points in irrelevant moment , moreso than Damphousse for example.
I would like to see someone do some sort of analysis on this to see if there’s any truth to it.

I realize that it could be, but it could just as easily be based on a very small space of time that got projected to a whole season or career. Perhaps in a two-week period, Montreal won two games 6-1 and lost 5 games by a goal. In the two 6-1 games he had a total of 5 third period points when the game was already decided, and in the close games he had two points but when behind late, he flubbed a pass and hit a post while pressing for the equalizer. Or something like that. then someone points out “look, he only gets points when it doesn’t matter, but when we need to tie a close game, where is he???” and it becomes a reputation.. which is very possible in Montreal. Or, on the other hand, it could be true. But I doubt it. Someone who puts up that many points has to be putting up important ones too.

His rep in Montreal was certainly that he had “no heart” but his playoff production record doesn’t bear that out. Based on playoff production, even unadjusted, he looks better than a number of 80s forwards who get taken before him.

It's so relatively recent after the end of his career, yet, there are so few people willing to go "to bat" for poor Turgeon aside from MS and I, apparently. He never stuck around in one city for long enough (Sundin, for example) to earn that begrudging "well, he's not the superstar I wanted, but he's our superstar" love from fans, he wasn't "sexy" like a Denis Savard, and he wasn't a "warrior" like Gilmour. But if you look at his actual production in any objective way, this is the class of players he belongs in.

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Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
I literally lol'ed at some of those names 70s compared him to. Compable to Hawerchuk? Really?
Yep, and to point out how absurd it is, you had to cherrypick the absolute very best of all of those modern “comparable” players. I named 16 modern centers there including Turgeon; Hawerchuk is 1st among them in both sum of top-10 percentage seasons (870 total) and top-5 (477 total). Turgeon is 5th (828) and 6th (437). That’s just 5% and 9% higher; is it really “laughable” that I said numbers 5% and 9% apart are “comparable”?

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Originally Posted by markrander87 View Post
So between Macleish and Turgeon who would you feel is a better fit to centre Prentice and Bathgate?

It's not always about "numbers" 70's.


Macleish led two cup champions in points, i'm not down playing Turgeons playoffs, he has pretty good numbers, but I need a clutch playoff scorer to centre Prentice and Bathgate. Also Macleish advantage in physical and defensive play as well as style of play favours him over Turgeon.
I agree that skill set fit is important. In this particular case the gap is so large between them as offensive players that I would still put Turgeon there, personally. We’re not talking about Doug Gilmour or Dave Keon here. I realize that would mean the line would lack toughness, with Prentice shouldering the majority of the physical load, but I don’t think that’s really that different from the line as you have it now. MacLeish’s advantage in defense over Turgeon is really nothing, and in physicality the edge is there, but how significant is that, even?

I hugely respect MacLeish’s playoff scoring but just like I say when we’re talking about players with poor playoff records, you can’t expect that to be the norm, it should only tweak your playoff expectations of the player slightly up or down. Other people may feel differently about that part. But like you said, it’s not like Turgeon didn’t produce pretty well in the playoffs himself.

MacLeish is perhaps the perfect player in a 32-team draft to center a 3rd scoring line and pop in a few clutch playoff goals. He might be over his head as a 2nd liner. But not all second lines have a guy like Andy Bathgate, so I dunno, maybe it will work.

BTW – I like how your lineup resembles my ATD2010 team

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nalyd Psycho View Post
Shows me for not checking the roster thread.
And I as well. I assumed Turgeon made it onto a 2nd line for his team. I don’t like it the way he has it but there’s nothing that can be done now. I have never been a “pure scoring 4th line” person and even if I was, I’d still try to have someone less like Turgeon running it. It really shouldn’t be this way. He should have went to a team that can use his offense on the 2nd line.

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Old
03-02-2012, 04:04 PM
  #919
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How is Kesler as a RW?
Equally impressive. Like Nalyd said, his breakout season was at RW.

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Old
03-02-2012, 04:05 PM
  #920
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Originally Posted by seventieslord View Post
His rep in Montreal was certainly that he had “no heart” but his playoff production record doesn’t bear that out. Based on playoff production, even unadjusted, he looks better than a number of 80s forwards who get taken before him.
Two words: Craig Janney.

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Old
03-02-2012, 04:06 PM
  #921
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
This is wrong - I picked Rolston at 543 and traded 546 to EB where he picked Billy Burch
Fixed, I just remembered you picking Rolston and assumed that it was with that pick.

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Old
03-02-2012, 04:06 PM
  #922
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Originally Posted by Nalyd Psycho View Post
Two words: ***** ******.
I wouldn't mention him, to be honest. He could be selected here as a spare or something.

Say what you will about that guy, and we all do - but he really did produce in the playoffs.

and also, what I meant about Turgeon is, maybe it's true that he really had "no heart". BUT, it didn't seem to stop him from scoring in the playoffs like one would think it would.

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Old
03-02-2012, 04:09 PM
  #923
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When Sundin was with the Canucks, Kesler was the RW on his line.
So how did he play ?

John Madden is just as good at LW as C (largely because he's not a playmaker at all) but his face offs are wasted. How was Kesler?

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Old
03-02-2012, 04:09 PM
  #924
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add Oldrich Machac to the "rising list" - 939-800-715-716-707-662-589-549 (7 straight rises!)

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Old
03-02-2012, 04:11 PM
  #925
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I'll pick a player that I know my coach will enjoy coaching based on these comments and countless interviews I've heard from Pat Burns when he was working with CKAC before dying:

Pat Burns:
Quote:
"He has everything. He's big, he's strong and he can find the back of the net. He can go into the corner to battle for the puck and he's so good on his skates. You rarely see him get knocked down."
Quote:
He is the best player in the league
Vincent Lecavalier, C


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