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ATD 2012 - Draft Thread VI

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Old
03-02-2012, 04:11 PM
  #926
Nalyd Psycho
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Originally Posted by seventieslord View Post
I wouldn't mention him, to be honest. He could be selected here as a spare or something.

Say what you will about that guy, and we all do - but he really did produce in the playoffs.

and also, what I meant about Turgeon is, maybe it's true that he really had "no heart". BUT, it didn't seem to stop him from scoring in the playoffs like one would think it would.
Also soft as a baby's stuffed animal.

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03-02-2012, 04:12 PM
  #927
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70s are you using my Hawerchuk numbers for your vs 2 comparison or your own? I use a higher standard of comparison than you do.

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03-02-2012, 04:13 PM
  #928
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BenchBrawl View Post
I'll pick a player that I know my coach will enjoy coaching based on these comments and countless interviews I've heard from Pat Burns when he was working with CKAC before dying:

Pat Burns:



Vincent Lecavalier, C

I am surprised it took Lecavalier so long to get selected. This is the guy that I was referring to way back when Staal was taken!

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Old
03-02-2012, 04:14 PM
  #929
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Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
70s are you using my Hawerchuk numbers for your vs 2 comparison or your own? I use a higher standard of comparison than you do.
same old sheet.

If you want to do it your way be my guest. That 5 and 9 might turn into a 6 and 10, even.

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03-02-2012, 04:17 PM
  #930
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Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
So how did he play ?

John Madden is just as good at LW as C (largely because he's not a playmaker at all) but his face offs are wasted. How was Kesler?
He scored at about a point per game pace, but I think his defence suffered a bit.

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03-02-2012, 04:17 PM
  #931
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Originally Posted by seventieslord View Post
I am surprised it took Lecavalier so long to get selected. This is the guy that I was referring to way back when Staal was taken!
Same here , I actually tried to trade up for him.I'm glad trades didn't work out.

Lecavalier can easily center a 4th line in the ATD and bring a little bit of everything , and giving his size & talent that is probably higher than his actual numbers , it means he can easily replace any of my centers on my three top lines for a couple of games and not look too out of place.

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03-02-2012, 04:21 PM
  #932
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Vince Lecavalier is underrated around here. He should definitely go before Staal, probably Richards as well (and others, that I can't think of right now).

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03-02-2012, 04:23 PM
  #933
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He's another one of those players that isn't good enough for the role he plays, so he becomes a utility player. But yeah, better than Staal.

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03-02-2012, 04:23 PM
  #934
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TDMM - I actually don't mind Rolston as a pick here, and I think he is exactly what you said - a special teams specialist at the ATD level. IIRC, he is a legitimate 3-position player through and through. As legit as it gets.

However, when you look at how low he was taken last draft I'm really surprised you didn't gamble that he'd last at least 3 more rounds. and if you miss him, NBD, he's just a 4th liner, not significantly better than someone you could settle for later.

just my take, anyway.

the days where I could stack an MLD 3rd line with Rolston are long over, unfortunately

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03-02-2012, 04:27 PM
  #935
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nalyd Psycho View Post
He's another one of those players that isn't good enough for the role he plays, so he becomes a utility player. But yeah, better than Staal.
DaveG PM'd me that day and made a good case for Staal though. they are closer than I thought. Lecavalier should go up about 70 picks and Staal down about 70, IMO.

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03-02-2012, 04:30 PM
  #936
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Originally Posted by seventieslord View Post
DaveG PM'd me that day and made a good case for Staal though. they are closer than I thought. Lecavalier should go up about 70 picks and Staal down about 70, IMO.
I do like Staal. He's a good player, probably works better in this format as a winger.

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Old
03-02-2012, 04:30 PM
  #937
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Quote:
Originally Posted by monster_bertuzzi View Post
Vince Lecavalier is underrated around here. He should definitely go before Staal, probably Richards as well (and others, that I can't think of right now).
Definitely disagree about the part about going before Richards. In the exact same number of playoff games, Richards has 10 more points(62 to 52), Richards has better top finishes, a higher career adjusted PPG(.993 to .926), and is better defensively.

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03-02-2012, 04:34 PM
  #938
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Originally Posted by seventieslord View Post
TDMM - I actually don't mind Rolston as a pick here, and I think he is exactly what you said - a special teams specialist at the ATD level. IIRC, he is a legitimate 3-position player through and through. As legit as it gets.

However, when you look at how low he was taken last draft I'm really surprised you didn't gamble that he'd last at least 3 more rounds. and if you miss him, NBD, he's just a 4th liner, not significantly better than someone you could settle for later.

just my take, anyway.

the days where I could stack an MLD 3rd line with Rolston are long over, unfortunately
I needed a forward who could play the point on the PP so I wouldn't be stuck with 2 offensive defensemen on the bottom pairing. I could only think of 2 remaining forwards who spent significant time in that role and Rolston's PP numbers were much better than the other guy's. Again, 29 adjusted PPP vs 30 for Rob Blake. Even if you adjust Rolston's down a little bit since he sometimes probably played forward, its still very good for a second pairing point guy - and I have pretty strong evidence he was almost exclusively at point over the time frame

My lists for bottom pairing defensemen, on the other hand, are quite long

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03-02-2012, 04:37 PM
  #939
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Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
I needed a forward who could play the point on the PP so I wouldn't be stuck with 2 offensive defensemen on the bottom pairing. I could only think of 2 remaining forwards who spent significant time in that role and Rolston's PP numbers were much better than the other guy's. Again, 29 adjusted PPP vs 30 for Rob Blake. Even if you adjust Rolston's down a little bit since he sometimes probably played forward, its still very good for a second pairing point guy - and I have pretty strong evidence he was almost exclusively at point over the time frame

My lists for bottom pairing defensemen, on the other hand, are quite long
Agreed, like Fred Stanfield, Rolston's value goes up because he is one of the few forwards with a hardline proven track record on the point. And lets face it, after a certain point, you cannot get defencemen who can work on the PP and PK.

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03-02-2012, 04:37 PM
  #940
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Originally Posted by BillyShoe1721 View Post
Definitely disagree about the part about going before Richards. In the exact same number of playoff games, Richards has 10 more points(62 to 52), Richards has better top finishes, a higher career adjusted PPG(.993 to .926), and is better defensively.
Lecavalier's adjusted PPG for his career is .98 if you remove his seasons as an 18-19 year old and put him on an even playing field with Richards.

Throw in that many more of his points are goals, and more of them are at ES, and it's definitely debatable. Not sure how important the playoff argument is when we're talking about a 10-point difference.

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Old
03-02-2012, 04:39 PM
  #941
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Lecavalier is also a leader and is way more physical than Brad Richards.He is also a better skater and can drop the gloves if necessary.It's also not out of the question that he was the best player in the league at his ultimate peak.He also won a scoring title.

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Old
03-02-2012, 04:40 PM
  #942
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Originally Posted by BenchBrawl View Post
Lecavalier is also a leader and is way more physical than Brad Richards.He is also a better skater and can drop the gloves if necessary.It's also not out of the question that he was the best player in the league at his ultimate peak.
just because he led the league in goals? Nah, I wouldn't go that far. i don't know if there was even a time he would be considered top-10.

(anyone have his placement from the 2008 THN yearbook? I am at work. that would be his peak placement)

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03-02-2012, 04:42 PM
  #943
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Quote:
Originally Posted by seventieslord View Post
Lecavalier's adjusted PPG for his career is .98 if you remove his seasons as an 18-19 year old and put him on an even playing field with Richards.

Throw in that many more of his points are goals, and more of them are at ES, and it's definitely debatable. Not sure how important the playoff argument is when we're talking about a 10-point difference.
It says something when that 10 point difference is in one playoff series, when the Bolts won the cup, no? Richards led the playoffs that year with 26 points to Lecavalier's 16. Also, wasn't St. Louis primarily playing with Lecavalier? Behindthenet only has data for 07-08 when Richards was traded to Dallas, but in that year Lecavalier's most common linemates were St. Louis and Prospal. The most common forward that Richards played with was Jan Hlavac(the other two listed are defensemen). Here are their relevant voting records:

Richards:

AS: 5, 6, 6
Selke: 15

Lecavalier:

AS: 2, 4, 7(one voting point, so irrelevant)
Hart: 4

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03-02-2012, 04:42 PM
  #944
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Originally Posted by seventieslord View Post
just because he led the league in goals? Nah, I wouldn't go that far. i don't know if there was even a time he would be considered top-10.

(anyone have his placement from the 2008 THN yearbook? I am at work. that would be his peak placement)
what are you talking about , just before he got injured and basically destroyed his prime , Lecavalier was clearly one of the top 3 players in the league , I'm not eve nsaying this as a way of selling him for my team because the time he was at this level is too short , but for a moment with all the intangibles he brings Lecavalier was scoring at a 1,50 pace then got injured , coming off from a maurice richard trophy and 108 pts season as a 6'4'' n1 center.

Pat Burns & Scotty Bowman also said he was the best player in the league in this particular window.He probably wasn't the best but he was really close.Then he got injured and his career ****ed up unfortunately , we'll never see what he could have done with a good healthy in those years.

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Old
03-02-2012, 04:47 PM
  #945
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Originally Posted by BillyShoe1721 View Post
It says something when that 10 point difference is in one playoff series, when the Bolts won the cup, no? Richards led the playoffs that year with 26 points to Lecavalier's 16. Also, wasn't St. Louis primarily playing with Lecavalier? Behindthenet only has data for 07-08 when Richards was traded to Dallas, but in that year Lecavalier's most common linemates were St. Louis and Prospal. The most common forward that Richards played with was Jan Hlavac(the other two listed are defensemen). Here are their relevant voting records:

Richards:

AS: 5, 6, 6
Selke: 15

Lecavalier:

AS: 2, 4, 7(one voting point, so irrelevant)
Hart: 4
but a 26-game stretch doesn't define either player's career, does it?

and how does that award voting record help Richards' case?

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what are you talking about , just before he got injured and basically destroyed his prime , Lecavalier was clearly one of the top 3 players in the league , I'm not eve nsaying this as a way of selling him for my team because the time he was at this level is too short , but for a moment with all the intangibles he brings Lecavalier was scoring at a 1,50 pace then got injured , coming off from a maurice richard trophy and 108 pts season as a 6'4'' n1 center.

Pat Burns & Scotty Bowman also said he was the best player in the league in this particular window.He probably wasn't the best but he was really close.Then he got injured and his career ****ed up unfortunately , we'll never see what he could have done with a good healthy in those years.
sorry, when was he scoring at a 1.50 PPG pace? I'm lost.

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03-02-2012, 04:49 PM
  #946
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St Louis played with Brad Richards when Richards won the Conn Smythe. He played with Lecavalier when Lecavalier led the league in goals. Whichever center played with St Louis is the guy who looked like a superstar while the other had an off year. It's why a lot of people tried to credit St Louis with Stamkos' success last year (though this year tells a different story on that one).

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03-02-2012, 04:52 PM
  #947
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Originally Posted by seventieslord View Post
but a 26-game stretch doesn't define either player's career, does it?

and how does that award voting record help Richards' case?
It certainly doesn't, but it's something to consider, no? I was just throwing out that awards record for the posterity of the debate. TDMM-any idea who St. Louis played with in 05-06 or before 03-04?

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03-02-2012, 04:54 PM
  #948
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Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
St Louis played with Brad Richards when Richards won the Conn Smythe. He played with Lecavalier when Lecavalier led the league in goals. Whichever center played with St Louis is the guy who looked like a superstar while the other had an off year. It's why a lot of people tried to credit St Louis with Stamkos' success last year (though this year tells a different story on that one).
St. Louis is definitely better than both of them, Iím sure we all agree there.

I still credit St. Louis with Stamkosí success last year. He was the better player. When you look at their ages itís quite possible that this can be reversed in one year (and Iíd say it has been)

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It certainly doesn't, but it's something to consider, no? I was just throwing out that awards record for the posterity of the debate.
Fair enough!

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03-02-2012, 04:55 PM
  #949
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sorry, when was he scoring at a 1.50 PPG pace? I'm lost.
again , I'm stressing that I'm not having this particular argument to oversell Lecavalier , I just have a very good memory of this particular Lecavalier's season because I always liked the player and I feel it's very unfortunate what happened to him.

This is the game log , when you see a clear production drop is when he got injured , I'm not lying or talking out of my ass , it was directly related to the injury , then he got surgery in the summer and never was the same after , got another surgery and so on.

He was burning the league and showed no sign of stopping at age 27 , which is pretty much the peak age.This could easily be seen as a normal cooled down after a great start , but it was indeed related to the injury.Tampa fans who knows their stuff could probably talk about it more.

http://lightning.nhl.com/club/player...8&view=gamelog

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03-02-2012, 05:01 PM
  #950
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Originally Posted by BenchBrawl View Post
again , I'm stressing that I'm not having this particular argument to oversell Lecavalier , I just have a very good memory of this particular Lecavalier's season because I always liked the player and I feel it's very unfortunate what happened to him.

This is the game log , when you see a clear production drop is when he got injured , I'm not lying or talking out of my ass , it was directly related to the injury , then he got surgery in the summer and never was the same after , got another surgery and so on.

He was burning the league and showed no sign of stopping at age 27 , which is pretty much the peak age.This could easily be seen as a normal cooled down after a great start , but it was indeed related to the injury.Tampa fans who knows their stuff could probably talk about it more.

http://lightning.nhl.com/club/player...8&view=gamelog

Wow, 63 points in 43 games, then 29 in the next 38!

I had forgotten he was playing that well in 2007.


and I wasn't trying to argue, I just wanted the facts.

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