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ATD 2012 - Draft Thread VI

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Old
02-24-2012, 12:04 AM
  #126
vancityluongo
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Originally Posted by seventieslord View Post
It's true, we even tossed his name around in ATD11.

He's even better than you and I thought back then - a lot better, actually.
I'd been hearing that he was way better than general perception of him even at the time that we discussed him, but I never actually did the research to prove it.

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02-24-2012, 12:11 AM
  #127
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I am on my bb ......is charlie huddy still available

If he is Ill select him

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02-24-2012, 12:13 AM
  #128
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I am on my bb ......is charlie huddy still available
Yup.

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02-24-2012, 12:14 AM
  #129
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Ty can u pm the next gm

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02-24-2012, 12:20 AM
  #130
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Where would Trevor Linden be picked if he played for a small market American team?

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02-24-2012, 12:24 AM
  #131
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Where would Trevor Linden be picked if he played for a small market American team?
Around the same spot as JP Parise.

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02-24-2012, 12:30 AM
  #132
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Originally Posted by Nalyd Psycho View Post
Around the same spot as JP Parise.
I don't see why Linden doesn't go higher than Parise(well, he did for the most part before this draft). Linden has a slightly higher adjusted career PPG(.632 to .628), did it for 492 more games, killed many more penalties, and brings equal and if not more two-way play and physicality.

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02-24-2012, 12:38 AM
  #133
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Where would Trevor Linden be picked if he played for a small market American team?
Not sure what that has to do with anything?

If anything, playing on the West coast underrated players on the entire scope - like the Sedins being labelled as ''2nd liners'' by goofballs for the longest time.

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02-24-2012, 12:51 AM
  #134
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IMO, Linden is a 3rd liner and Parise a 4th liner.

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02-24-2012, 01:02 AM
  #135
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IMO, Linden is a 3rd liner and Parise a 4th liner.
IMO, Parise might be best as a 4th liner, but I don't know what makes Linden any better. I dont have time to run VS 2 numbers now, but I'm pretty sure Linden was never top 20 in NHL scoring. And Linden definitely has intangibles but are they that good?

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02-24-2012, 01:40 AM
  #136
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Originally Posted by BillyShoe1721 View Post
I don't see why Linden doesn't go higher than Parise(well, he did for the most part before this draft). Linden has a slightly higher adjusted career PPG(.632 to .628), did it for 492 more games, killed many more penalties, and brings equal and if not more two-way play and physicality.
My point was that a similar player who played most of his career in Minnesota is rated as similar to Linden.

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02-24-2012, 03:21 AM
  #137
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Vadnais, sometimes gets a bad rap as a offense only guy. However he was never a liability defensively...
Actually, this was pretty close to Vadnais' reputation in New York, though in fairness to Vadnais, I think his time with the Rangers was not the peak of his career. Here are Vadnais' all-star voting finishes:

1968-69: 9th
1969-70: 17th
1971-72: 10th
1973-74: 6th
1974-75: 8th
1975-76: 9th

He never got any AST votes as a Ranger, for whatever reason, so I think we most likely didn't see him at his best in New York. It is not a bad AST voting record for a player at this point in the draft - not bad, at all, actually. Vadnais is definitely good enough to play on a second pairing here. I don't have his defensemen scoring finishes in front of me, but I believe there is at least a small incongruity between how well he scored and how well he placed in AST voting, meaning that the voters most likely considered him to be not a particularly strong defensive player even at this peak. Maybe overpass can help us out with some defensive scoring numbers?

As a Ranger, I can say that Vadnais was not that good defensively. Maybe the problem was that he was playing against first line forwards whereas he had been a second pairing guy in Boston, but he was disappointing defensively as a Ranger, yes. I probably used more colorful words to describe his defensive play as a teenager, but with the perspective of time, I think "disappointing" sums it up better. Does that make him a "liability" at the ATD level? I dunno. I would say that Vadnais is probably worse defensively than Dan Boyle, so if that makes him a liability to you, then I guess that's what I am saying.

But of course, I think the way that word is used around here is silly. Pretty much all but the elite second pairing puckmovers in this draft could be called "defensive liabilities" depending on your definition. Just for reference, and for Carol Vadnais' sake, here are the AST voting finishes for Gary Suter:

1985-86: 12th
1987-88: 3rd
1988-89: 10th
1989-90: 9th
1990-91: 10th
1992-93: 10th
1995-96: 11th

Suter is a similar player to Vadnais. Strong puckmover, physical player, but not really known for his defense. Besides Suter's peak all-star season, is there a big difference between he and Carol Vadnais? I have watched substantial parts of the downslope of both of these players' respective careers - Suter in San Jose and Vadnais in New York - and I have to say that I found them pretty similar. I think Suter definitely peaked higher in Chicago, but otherwise...what is the big difference?

Unless you took your second pairing puckmover in round six or earlier, odds are that he was not a stalwart defensively. But so what?

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02-24-2012, 07:21 AM
  #138
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Originally Posted by Sturminator View Post
Actually, this was pretty close to Vadnais' reputation in New York, though in fairness to Vadnais, I think his time with the Rangers was not the peak of his career. Here are Vadnais' all-star voting finishes:

1968-69: 9th
1969-70: 17th
1971-72: 10th
1973-74: 6th
1974-75: 8th
1975-76: 9th

He never got any AST votes as a Ranger, for whatever reason, so I think we most likely didn't see him at his best in New York. It is not a bad AST voting record for a player at this point in the draft - not bad, at all, actually. Vadnais is definitely good enough to play on a second pairing here. I don't have his defensemen scoring finishes in front of me, but I believe there is at least a small incongruity between how well he scored and how well he placed in AST voting, meaning that the voters most likely considered him to be not a particularly strong defensive player even at this peak. Maybe overpass can help us out with some defensive scoring numbers?

As a Ranger, I can say that Vadnais was not that good defensively. Maybe the problem was that he was playing against first line forwards whereas he had been a second pairing guy in Boston, but he was disappointing defensively as a Ranger, yes. I probably used more colorful words to describe his defensive play as a teenager, but with the perspective of time, I think "disappointing" sums it up better. Does that make him a "liability" at the ATD level? I dunno. I would say that Vadnais is probably worse defensively than Dan Boyle, so if that makes him a liability to you, then I guess that's what I am saying.

But of course, I think the way that word is used around here is silly. Pretty much all but the elite second pairing puckmovers in this draft could be called "defensive liabilities" depending on your definition. Just for reference, and for Carol Vadnais' sake, here are the AST voting finishes for Gary Suter:

1985-86: 12th
1987-88: 3rd
1988-89: 10th
1989-90: 9th
1990-91: 10th
1992-93: 10th
1995-96: 11th

Suter is a similar player to Vadnais. Strong puckmover, physical player, but not really known for his defense. Besides Suter's peak all-star season, is there a big difference between he and Carol Vadnais? I have watched substantial parts of the downslope of both of these players' respective careers - Suter in San Jose and Vadnais in New York - and I have to say that I found them pretty similar. I think Suter definitely peaked higher in Chicago, but otherwise...what is the big difference?

Unless you took your second pairing puckmover in round six or earlier, odds are that he was not a stalwart defensively. But so what?

I was looking through google archives and found an article saying he didn't have great years in New York because they didn't fit his style of play. He was paired with another offensive dman (they didn't list a name) and they did not mesh well at all. For the life of me I don't know why I didnt save that article, i'll try and find it.


Also I was very impressed with his penalty kill numbers as well. Vadnais was leaned upon to play a lot of minutes, and by Overpass' numbers we see he wasn't a one dimensional guy as well.

I don't know the answer to this but does Dan Boyle kill a lot of penalties? Also Vadnais has a quite a physical/fighting edge.

Either way, very informative post. I knew he did have decent All star voting record, but next to Gary Suters for example it's a lot closer then I would have thought.


EDIT:

Carol Vadnais Top 10 point finishes amongst defenseman

T2nd 1969-70
T3rd 1973-74
4th 1974-75 (2 points from 2nd place)
5th 1968-69
T7th 1971-72
T7th 1975-76
10th 1976-77


Vadnais had some tough competition as well. Prime Orr, Park, Lapoint, Potvin etc..


Last edited by markrander87: 02-24-2012 at 09:23 AM.
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Old
02-24-2012, 08:06 AM
  #139
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I don't know the answer to this but does Dan Boyle kill a lot of penalties?
No...not much, but he does log a lot of tough even-strength icetime, and does well with it. Boyle is definitely the more solid even strength defenseman from what I have seen. Boyle will get beat sometimes, but he rarely gives up goals because of fundamental/mental mistakes like getting himself out of position to make a hit, losing his check, overplaying the puck, turnovers at the blueline, etc. Vadnais was prone to those kinds of mistakes at even strength.

I don't really know much about Vadnais' penalty-killing skills. I am honestly a bit surprised to see that spent so much time as a PKer, but the numbers are what they are. It may well be that the mistakes of overaggression that Vadnais made at even strength disappeared from his game on the PK and he was able to be successful keeping things simple defensively. I dunno.

Quote:
Either way, very intersting post. I knew he did have decent All star voting record, but next to Gary Suters for example it's a lot closer then I would have thought.
To an extent, I think Suter is historically overrated in the ATD, but I think Vadnais' voting record shows that he was a strong puckmoving defenseman for a good number of years with or without the Suter comparison, and is at any rate a good value at this point in the draft.

I wonder a bit, in general, why the voting metrics (of which we now have almost complete records) are not used more often in evaluating defensemen in the ATD. Forwards can be evaluated as scorers, but the Norris/AST voting is the best quantitative measurement we have of the performance of defensemen. Strange that this information is still only sporadically used in ATD analysis.

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02-24-2012, 08:25 AM
  #140
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Vadnais was not a permanent NHL player until 68-69 with the Seals. He played roughly half of his NHL career for the Rangers (75-83). His Rangers +/- were -17, -20, -25, +14, -1, +19, -2, -32.

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02-24-2012, 08:33 AM
  #141
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Vecens has been OTC since 1:11 AM ET. I pmed him.

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02-24-2012, 08:47 AM
  #142
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[QUOTE=Sturminator;44786481]No...not much, but he does log a lot of tough even-strength icetime, and does well with it. Boyle is definitely the more solid even strength defenseman from what I have seen. Boyle will get beat sometimes, but he rarely gives up goals because of fundamental/mental mistakes like getting himself out of position to make a hit, losing his check, overplaying the puck, turnovers at the blueline, etc. Vadnais was prone to those kinds of mistakes at even strength.

I remember reading somewheres that Vadnais played well over 25 minutes a game for both the Seals, Bruins and Rangers. Also that he was consistently the 1st or 2nd dman on his team in ES minutes. I really wish I can find that article regarding how the Rangers didn't use him properly.

Here is an interesting quote with some insight on Vadnais, only 12 games into his Ranger tenure mind you:


Quote:
“ I don’t care about scoring goals” says the Pleasant Montreal Native. :I just want to win. I got all those points (74) last year, but big deal. I’ll take 50 less points if my team can finish first. I’d rather block 10 shots in a game then end up with four points”

“He’s playing super” said Esposito. “He’s going as well as I’ve ever seen him”

In the 12 games since the trade, Vadnais has scored three goals and set up seven others, impressive numbers for a defenceminded defenceman, and has shown versatility on the blue line.

- http://news.google.com/newspapers?id...+vadnais&hl=en





Quote:
I don't really know much about Vadnais' penalty-killing skills. I am honestly a bit surprised to see that spent so much time as a PKer, but the numbers are what they are. It may well be that the mistakes of overaggression that Vadnais made at even strength disappeared from his game on the PK and he was able to be successful keeping things simple defensively. I dunno.

I was shocked myself. I initially thought he was a non factor on the PK, but that was a good find.

I'm starting to get the impression that he was capable of being more of an all around defenseman and a lot of the time he was. But played more of a offensesive game because of his role needed on his teams (EX. Boston needing a secondary rushing defenseman behind Orr)


Quote:
To an extent, I think Suter is historically overrated in the ATD, but I think Vadnais' voting record shows that he was a strong puckmoving defenseman for a good number of years with or without the Suter comparison, and is at any rate a good value at this point in the draft.

I wonder a bit, in general, why the voting metrics (of which we now have almost complete records) are not used more often in evaluating defensemen in the ATD. Forwards can be evaluated as scorers, but the Norris/AST voting is the best quantitative measurement we have of the performance of defensemen. Strange that this information is still only sporadically used in ATD analysis.

Ha I'm not going to lie, I paniced while drafting Plager, he is better suited for a bottom pairing. I'm happy I was able to grab Vadnais who seems like a better fit with Gardiner and can also quartback my 2nd pp unit.

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02-24-2012, 08:51 AM
  #143
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Originally Posted by markrander87 View Post
Carol Vadnais Top 10 point finishes amongst defenseman

3rd
4th
4th
5th
T 7th
T 7th
10th
Would you give years for those scoring finishes so we can correlate them with his AST voting placements?

Yeah, Vadnais was a pretty forgettable player in New York, but he was also 30 by the time he got to the Rangers (though in theory, that should have given him another few peak seasons). I think he was a guy who just really didn't handle the top-pairing ES minutes very well when thrust into that role.

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02-24-2012, 08:58 AM
  #144
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I remember reading somewheres that Vadnais played well over 25 minutes a game for both the Seals, Bruins and Rangers. Also that he was consistently the 1st or 2nd dman on his team in ES minutes. I really wish I can find that article regarding how the Rangers didn't use him properly.
Vadnais likely did lead team defensemen in ES icetime for a couple of seasons in Oakland, though that is not saying much. I'm fairly certain he led Rangers defensemen in ES icetime for the first few years, though like I said, he didn't handle it very well. Obviously he didn't lead the Bruins in ES icetime, and I doubt he was 2nd, either. He was a second pairing defenseman in Boston, which were his best years from an AST voting perspective. Some players perform better when they're not the center of attention.

Quote:
Here is an interesting quote with some insight on Vadnais, only 12 games into his Ranger tenure mind you:
That looks like mostly a lot of platitudes, to be honest. I have no idea why that writer would describe Vadnais as a "defenceminded defenceman" at that point. That had not been his reputation in Boston.


Last edited by Sturminator: 02-24-2012 at 09:26 AM.
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02-24-2012, 09:22 AM
  #145
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Would you give years for those scoring finishes so we can correlate them with his AST voting placements?

Yeah, Vadnais was a pretty forgettable player in New York, but he was also 30 by the time he got to the Rangers (though in theory, that should have given him another few peak seasons). I think he was a guy who just really didn't handle the top-pairing ES minutes very well when thrust into that role.


Carol Vadnais Top 10 point finishes amongst defenseman


....................................... All star voting:

T2nd 1969-70 ...................... 1969-70: 17th
T3rd 1973-74 ........................... 1973-74: 6th
4th 1974-75 (2 points from 2nd place) ...................... ....1974-75: 8th
5th 1968-69 ......................... 1968-69: 9th
T7th 1971-72 .......................... 1971-72: 10th
T7th 1975-76 ......................... 1975-76: 9th
10th 1976-77



Obviously Vadnais years were from 1971-1976 when he was playing for the Bruins. This is good news as he will be playing the same type of role on my team as he played for them. I wonder if playing behind Orr would have impacted his All star voting records?


Edited my original list, missed a couple ties for him.


Last edited by markrander87: 02-24-2012 at 09:29 AM.
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02-24-2012, 09:40 AM
  #146
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I wonder if playing behind Orr would have impacted his All star voting records?
I doubt Bobby, himself, would have had a big effect on Vadnais' voting record, though playing with those Boston forwards and on that powerplay (alongside Bobby? I'm not really sure) likely helped. Vadnais' PP production seems to have dropped quite a bit in New York, even though he was the team's #1 defenseman, and that probably had an effect.

Vadnais may have been somewhat flattered by playing for those Bruins teams - it kind of looks like he was. But he did finish top-10 in AST voting twice in Oakland (counting 1971-72, where he played 3/4ths of the season there), so it can't be said that the Bruins made him.

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02-24-2012, 10:24 AM
  #147
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Sorry boys I meant to post last night to skip me if I got up last night late, but I just forgot.

Pick coming in the next few mins.

EDIT: This can just stand as a lasting reminder. If I get on the clock after 11 PM on Thursday, Friday, or Saturday, just skip me. I will have no real issue with this.

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02-24-2012, 10:33 AM
  #148
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There's a better Scandinavian defenseman out there, but I really want this guy's RH shot on my PP next to Harvey.

Reijo Ruotsalainen, D.

He'll play sheltered 3rd pairing ES minutes, and then be counted on to score on the PP.

EDIT: Going to play racquetball, and I assume that papershoes has already been PMed. Does anyone want to take a one man list real quick in case the two guys in between my next pick go?

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02-24-2012, 11:58 AM
  #149
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Sturm has my list to pick for me when I'm up.

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02-24-2012, 12:09 PM
  #150
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Sturm has my list to pick for me when I'm up.
Was there a trade that wasn't posted or something? It doesn't look like God Made Me is up for another 30 picks...

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