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Per Tony Marinaro: Three people he think could do the job in Montreal

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Old
02-23-2012, 05:43 PM
  #101
andy28
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Originally Posted by Miller Time View Post
people bending over backwards trying to make that case are only highlighting their own personal, emotional, dislike of the man... which while understandable (he can be pretty damn annoying as a media guy sometimes), doesn't make it a good argument.
Is that why other teams did not hire him?

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02-23-2012, 05:44 PM
  #102
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Wow this is turning into a ridiculous thread. You guys would trust Scotty Bowman right? So if he endorsed Pierre McGuire, MAYBE he's on to something?

"People don't realize Pierre was a hockey person for 10-12 years before he became a media person. He has tremendous work ethic and ambition. He's networked with so many people around the NHL for years. If you look at some people who have done good jobs, some of them, all they needed was an opportunity."


-Scotty Bowman on Pierre McGuire ("Melnick In The Afternoon" TSN 990 Dec 23, 2011)

The hate for McGuire on here is so "sense-less" as one poster wrote. Just because he hasn't been part of an NHL team for a long time doesn't mean he'd make a lousy GM. That's "sense-less". The guy lives and breathes hockey, he literally knows everything about the game, having been a scout, coach, assn't GM, analyst, everything. The only thing he hasn't done is GM'ed, so for that reason, eff him?

He might not be the best potential GM out there, but i don't think he's underqualified in any way, shape or form. If given a chance, I'd think he'd do a great job, especially here. Why? Because you can tell from listening on the radio that he genuinely cares about the MTL fans, and about doing whatever it takes to build a real winner here.

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02-23-2012, 05:45 PM
  #103
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Originally Posted by Markowicz View Post
The hate for McGuire on here is so "sense-less" as one poster wrote. ?
Thinking a guy is not qualified for a job is not hate. Not unlike "love", people use that word carelessly these days.

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02-23-2012, 05:47 PM
  #104
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Originally Posted by Miller Time View Post
i seriously have to wonder about the deluded notion that McGuire doesn't have enough "experience" to do the job of managing a professional hockey team...

current/up-to-date knowledge of the game- check
encyclopedic knowledge of players/coaches/officials at mutltiple levels of pro/amateur hockey- check
contacts/network/relationships with various GM's/owners/hockey "pro's" - check
personal work ethic & professionalism - check
sound fundamental knowledge/awareness of internal operations of pro hockey teams- check
experience working directly with/for championship winning organization- check
knowledge/awareness of media workings/influence- check
intimate knowledge of montreal hockey market - check


being a GM is NOT like being a brain surgeon, or an auto mechanic for that matter.

some jobs demand a specific level of direct technical knowledge/experience/training to be proficient at them... people management and running a sports team does not fall under that category.

just like managers in other fields, the key isn't specific technical knowledge or experience, but a broad scope of experience ideally directly related to the field (though there are many examples of individuals who have gone on to become incredibly successful managers/CEO's of organizations in fields where they had little to no direct experience with).

Gillis and his success in Vancouver is a perfect example of this... likewise, Houle's disastrous tenure as GM is a great example of why success in other areas isn't a guarantee either.


bottom line is that McGuire's "lack" of experience in the specific GM role is hardly a strong argument against him.

people bending over backwards trying to make that case are only highlighting their own personal, emotional, dislike of the man... which while understandable (he can be pretty damn annoying as a media guy sometimes), doesn't make it a good argument.
Well said, through and through.

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02-23-2012, 05:56 PM
  #105
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Originally Posted by Protest the Hero View Post
We saw what the years of being away from the game did to Barry Melrose, was he not up to date on the game from watching and commenting on it every night?

Like Andy has said, he hasn't held an actual position in the NHL in over 15 years.
LA 1992–93 84 39 35 10 - 88 3rd in Smythe Lost in Cup Final
LA 1993–94 84 27 45 12 - 66 5th in Pacific Missed Playoffs
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Total


Melrose coached 3 years in the NHL, made a cup final as a rookie head coach (thank you mr.Gretzky) then missed the playoffs the next 2 seasons.

Didn't coach again until 2008, where he was fired after only 16 games. A pretty easy case could be made that he wasn't given a legitimate shot his 2nd time around... or perhaps quite simply it was painfully obvious very quickly that he wasn't prepared for the task of coaching a team.


and besides, i think a very good case could be made that coaching an NHL team is much closer to a profession requiring precise/specific technical knowledge/skill than managing one.

A good GM surrounds himself with great talent in specific areas, leans heavily on them for their expertise, and shows his "skill" in bringing the skills of all the people he surrounds himself with together to form an effective whole.

no doubt that Mcguire's biggest adjustment would be in the people management side of things, however his experience working on his broadcast teams should lend itself to smoothing the transition from being a good "teammate" to being a good leader.

Melrose jumped into a role (coaching a group of players, most of which were just starting to play hockey when he last coached) that his media job provided little cross-over for, and quite possibly even hurt him for...

likewise, if we were talking about Mcguire as a candidate for head coach, a position that he actually does have direct experience with, I'd be far less inclined to view him as a solid candidate. While his knowledge of the game, and his understanding of strategy/hockey "x's/O's" is probably just fine, running practices and managing the bench during games is the kind of specific technical skill that direct recent experience is a huge asset...

it's why a guy like Hitchcock, who took some time away doing various things, specifically spent time away from NHL coaching working as a coach at other levels, and has stepped back into the role as good/if not better, than ever.


Coaching and Managing are very different "beasts"...

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02-23-2012, 06:02 PM
  #106
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Originally Posted by jefferiah View Post
Is that why other teams did not hire him?
and I suppose the reason we hired Gauthier is because of how well he's done in his previous roles... including his "stellar" job as director of pro scouting for us... Gomez, Samsonov, Tanguay, Laraque... yup, good thing we were smart enough to hire a guy with "experience"



in case our example isn't good enough, take a quick look around the league... there are lots of GM's who have found work in recent years despite terrible previous track records, or lack of successful experience.

Milbury lasted how long in Long Island?


As with any other industry, merit is not the only determining factor in who gets hired where... even less so in a closed environment like the NHL.

heck, one of the few guys on our skeleton management team, is the son of the former president whose only resume credentials is his last name!


besides, I don't feel like digging for it, but I'm quite certain there was a direct quote recently indicating that Mcguire had turned down at least one (perhaps more?) management opportunities.

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02-23-2012, 06:33 PM
  #107
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Did you just become a Hab fan during the Gainey era?
No. I just think it's worth pointing out that his era has been a colossal failure considering what his original goal was: to execute a plan and build a perennial contender.

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02-23-2012, 06:38 PM
  #108
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Originally Posted by Miller Time View Post

in case our example isn't good enough, take a quick look around the league... there are lots of GM's who have found work in recent years despite terrible previous track records, or lack of successful experience.
In that case, why don't we look for people with successful experience, rather than no experience.

Pointing out that people with experience can suck, or that Gauthier sucks, does not mean that experience is overrated, nor does it tell me why we should hire McGuire. If Gauthier's previous experience as GM and pro-scout showed he was lacking, then Habs brass should have gleaned something from that. The fact that they did not, does not mean experience tells us nothing.

We do not need to hire a previous GM. But I would rather take in someone who is currently in the business. Guys like Chia and Shero did their time as assistant GMs or player agents, etc.

What do we know about Pierre McGuire? What do we know about his talent analysis? Saying he sees a lot of hockey and knows a lot of prospects tells you very little. He is a commentator, and whether or not he is really good at assessing a team's needs is really a matter of opinion. Some people think he is a smart hockey mind, other's think he is an idiot. We have no proof either way, except from his commentary. Does he have any skill as a negotiator?


Last edited by andy28: 02-23-2012 at 06:53 PM.
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02-23-2012, 07:31 PM
  #109
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If we're looking to hire a commentator I'd rather have Bob Mackenzie

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02-23-2012, 10:30 PM
  #110
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Miller Time View Post
i seriously have to wonder about the deluded notion that McGuire doesn't have enough "experience" to do the job of managing a professional hockey team...

current/up-to-date knowledge of the game- check
encyclopedic knowledge of players/coaches/officials at mutltiple levels of pro/amateur hockey- check
contacts/network/relationships with various GM's/owners/hockey "pro's" - check
personal work ethic & professionalism - check
sound fundamental knowledge/awareness of internal operations of pro hockey teams- check
experience working directly with/for championship winning organization- check
knowledge/awareness of media workings/influence- check
intimate knowledge of montreal hockey market - check


being a GM is NOT like being a brain surgeon, or an auto mechanic for that matter.

some jobs demand a specific level of direct technical knowledge/experience/training to be proficient at them... people management and running a sports team does not fall under that category.

just like managers in other fields, the key isn't specific technical knowledge or experience, but a broad scope of experience ideally directly related to the field (though there are many examples of individuals who have gone on to become incredibly successful managers/CEO's of organizations in fields where they had little to no direct experience with).

Gillis and his success in Vancouver is a perfect example of this... likewise, Houle's disastrous tenure as GM is a great example of why success in other areas isn't a guarantee either.


bottom line is that McGuire's "lack" of experience in the specific GM role is hardly a strong argument against him.

people bending over backwards trying to make that case are only highlighting their own personal, emotional, dislike of the man... which while understandable (he can be pretty damn annoying as a media guy sometimes), doesn't make it a good argument.
Mike Gillis. Great example. Prior to becoming a GM, he was a players agent. All that did for him was getting to know all of the players in the NHL. And as far as Pierre McGuire, being a media guy, all that he does is getting to know all of the players in the NHL.

Wait a minute.............

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02-23-2012, 10:48 PM
  #111
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Originally Posted by SouthernHab View Post
Mike Gillis. Great example. Prior to becoming a GM, he was a players agent. All that did for him was getting to know all of the players in the NHL. And as far as Pierre McGuire, being a media guy, all that he does is getting to know all of the players in the NHL.

Wait a minute.............
A players agent is a negotiator.

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02-23-2012, 10:53 PM
  #112
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Theoretically speaking, Bob Gainey should have been the ideal GM for le Canadien. Everyone was ecstatic when he was named. So what derailed the train? McGuire's judgment is untested. So is his negotiating skill. So is his mental toughness. All I know is that he talks a good game. So did Phil Esposito when he undermined Craig Patrick in order to take his place as GM of the NY Rangers.

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02-23-2012, 11:05 PM
  #113
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Originally Posted by Teufelsdreck View Post
Theoretically speaking, Bob Gainey should have been the ideal GM for le Canadien. Everyone was ecstatic when he was named. So what derailed the train?
With the exception of going trigger happy in July of 2009, Gainey was way too conservative. He wanted to build from within, but we didn't sell to acquire extra picks or try to get high picks. We allowed several free agents to walk for nothing.

Aside from that no major free agent signings, no major trades. He looked for cheap solutions. Which is not a bad thing on its own, but it takes talent to find gold in the garbage every time.

Samsonov, Brisebois, Smolinski, Schneider.....second rate moves.

He brought some big names to Dallas. Why were things different in Montreal? Sometimes I wonder if he was under more pressure from above to make the playoffs.


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02-23-2012, 11:23 PM
  #114
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Originally Posted by Teufelsdreck View Post
Theoretically speaking, Bob Gainey should have been the ideal GM for le Canadien. Everyone was ecstatic when he was named. So what derailed the train? McGuire's judgment is untested. So is his negotiating skill. So is his mental toughness. All I know is that he talks a good game. So did Phil Esposito when he undermined Craig Patrick in order to take his place as GM of the NY Rangers.
True, but Gainey and Gauthier were experienced and tested, and they caused train wrecks. Still wrecking.

It's important to get this decision right, this is Molson's early test, but experience isn't the be all and end all asset.

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02-24-2012, 01:50 AM
  #115
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Brisebois too young, not impressed me so far, has link with prior management

Bergevin, a cypher

Maguire seems pretty reckless, change his mind every 5 minutes

Damphousse, the guy is Gauthier-level has far as ghost-like. une moviette

What I mean is that I would have no idea for a GM.

Maybe Roy. I thought he was too emotional before but he's been doing a good job as GM of the Rempart.

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02-24-2012, 02:09 AM
  #116
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Originally Posted by Kimota View Post
Brisebois too young, not impressed me so far, has link with prior management

Bergevin, a cypher

Maguire seems pretty reckless, change his mind every 5 minutes

Damphousse, the guy is Gauthier-level has far as ghost-like. une moviette

What I mean is that I would have no idea for a GM.

Maybe Roy. I thought he was too emotional before but he's been doing a good job as GM of the Rempart.
I think PG has done ok, not great, but ok. If they do decide to let him go, I think I've warmed up to the idea of Roy. I'd be hesitant to just hand him the keys though, so maybe hire him in the front office first and work towards making him GM from there. Molson could have BG as interim GM, but not allow any significant moves while interim, and then Roy could take over when he and the organization feels ready.

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02-24-2012, 04:23 AM
  #117
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Originally Posted by SouthernHab View Post
He should be replaced because of his poorly built D.
And that extends to poor team defence. Tom Pyatt is an excellent player to have on the ice when playing with a lead, and it is not a complete coincidence that the Habs record for the past two seasons when without Pyatt in the lineup leaves something to be desired; specifically, the Habs give up WAYYYYY too many leads late in the game, something that did not happen when Pyatt held a shutdown role with the team.

The issue is not Ryan White versus Tom Pyatt. It is Andreas Engqvist and/or Aaron Palushaj and/or Petteri Nokelainen versus Tom Pyatt. Even Mathieu Darche who gives an effort defensively does not have the positioning instincts that Pyatt does, and he is not even that much better offensively.

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02-24-2012, 05:38 AM
  #118
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I think PG has done ok, not great, but ok. If they do decide to let him go, I think I've warmed up to the idea of Roy. I'd be hesitant to just hand him the keys though, so maybe hire him in the front office first and work towards making him GM from there. Molson could have BG as interim GM, but not allow any significant moves while interim, and then Roy could take over when he and the organization feels ready.
Leadership changes don't work like that. You need someone to take all of this vacuum of power and attention on himself and refocus it quickly on the objectives / strategies. I would be glad for Roy to take control as off the end of the season.

He's done OK? 300 wins, 125 lost (I'm approximating), Memorial cup + many presence deep in the playoffs. He's done more than ok.

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02-24-2012, 06:24 AM
  #119
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I heard this. Basically what was said by the Tonester.

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02-24-2012, 08:18 AM
  #120
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As per the Team 990 and Tony Marinaro it MAY go down like this in the summer:

If they want to keep it the same but make a change at the top...

- Julien Brisebois

If they want to go with the guy that has the vision, knows the teams, players and GM's in the league, has worked and been groomed by Scotty Bowman and will be a fresh mindset then it will be...

- Pierre McGuire

If they want to interview the dark horse with the outside chance...

- Marc Bergevin
I'm wetting my pants with excitement at those three candidates.

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02-24-2012, 08:21 AM
  #121
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Thinking a guy is not qualified for a job is not hate. Not unlike "love", people use that word carelessly these days.
Most people under 30 use the words Love and Hate all the time. I never use them.

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02-24-2012, 08:33 AM
  #122
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Originally Posted by Miller Time;44734141


[B
As with any other industry, merit is not the only determining factor in who gets hired where...[/B] even less so in a closed environment like the NHL.
Actually, you're wrong. Merit means covering all factors required for the job. Skills, attitude, knowledge (including a language that is not required if you like, though I don't like) and Intelligence. Name me something else that should factor in.

Good luck with running your business.

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02-24-2012, 08:40 AM
  #123
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Mike Gillis. Great example. Prior to becoming a GM, he was a players agent. All that did for him was getting to know all of the players in the NHL. And as far as Pierre McGuire, being a media guy, all that he does is getting to know all of the players in the NHL.

Wait a minute.............
Yeah, Pierre really 'knows' all the NHL players, being a media guy and all.

News for you, most players can't stand the media guys, and with good reason.

That is in fact the number one reason I don't want this guy near the Habs. Not one player will ever take him seriously. Ever.

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02-24-2012, 08:44 AM
  #124
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With the exception of going trigger happy in July of 2009, Gainey was way too conservative. He wanted to build from within, but we didn't sell to acquire extra picks or try to get high picks. We allowed several free agents to walk for nothing.

Aside from that no major free agent signings, no major trades. He looked for cheap solutions. Which is not a bad thing on its own, but it takes talent to find gold in the garbage every time.

Samsonov, Brisebois, Smolinski, Schneider.....second rate moves.

He brought some big names to Dallas. Why were things different in Montreal? Sometimes I wonder if he was under more pressure from above to make the playoffs.
First, very first time that someone says this. Well done. Yeah good ol George Gillet, nice guy.

Bet not. It is a very good bet that he told Bo to make the playoffs no matter what, every year.

This is thread worthy. It would explain many many things.

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02-24-2012, 09:38 AM
  #125
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Actually, you're wrong. Merit means covering all factors required for the job. Skills, attitude, knowledge (including a language that is not required if you like, though I don't like) and Intelligence. Name me something else that should factor in.

Good luck with running your business.
? reading comprehension not so strong these days I suppose.

Perhaps you live in a fairy tale world where merit is what decides who gets what position... but over here in the real world, people constantly get jobs based on who they know or whom they are related to.

Sorry to burst your naive bubble.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jefferiah View Post
In that case, why don't we look for people with successful experience, rather than no experience.

Pointing out that people with experience can suck, or that Gauthier sucks, does not mean that experience is overrated, nor does it tell me why we should hire McGuire. If Gauthier's previous experience as GM and pro-scout showed he was lacking, then Habs brass should have gleaned something from that. The fact that they did not, does not mean experience tells us nothing.

We do not need to hire a previous GM. But I would rather take in someone who is currently in the business. Guys like Chia and Shero did their time as assistant GMs or player agents, etc.

What do we know about Pierre McGuire? What do we know about his talent analysis? Saying he sees a lot of hockey and knows a lot of prospects tells you very little. He is a commentator, and whether or not he is really good at assessing a team's needs is really a matter of opinion. Some people think he is a smart hockey mind, other's think he is an idiot. We have no proof either way, except from his commentary. Does he have any skill as a negotiator?
We need to hire the best candidate for the job, plain and simple.

I think McGuire brings a lot of elements to the table that could make him such candidate, but if a better one emerges, then great.

Bergevin is a name that's getting bounced around, he fits the "experience as asst.GM" criteria you'd like to see (though I wonder how much negotiating the asst.GM takes charge of directly?), and he could very well be a good candidate.

I'm not saying McG is the ONLY candidate we should consider, just that there is a lot about what he brings to the table that would make him a strong candidate, imo.


Ultimately, the job needs to go to the guy who interviews the best, who shows up and wows the habs brass with his convincing and detailed plan for taking this organization back to a level of sustained excellence that was once a hallmark.

I mentioned this example a few times, and I think it's very relevant.

When the Steelers were looking to replace Cowher a few years ago, the concensus pick was a guy named K.Wisenhunt. He was on the Steelers coaching staff, was well liked/respected, and was clearly a future HC candidate.
In the end, the Steelers shocked everyone by hiring a young, black, rookie HC, who had a much smaller resume/level of experience....

many thought they were making a mistake.

anyone who follows NFL football knows just how brilliant that hire turned out to be.


my point is simply that excellence is not just going with the safe or obvious pick, it's not hiring based solely on track record/experience, it's about being willing to take the occasional "educated" risk, and being willing to go against conventional wisdom if necessary to hire the "right" person for the job.

We have very limited info on any of the candidates, only their professional experience and personalities.

from that limited amount of info, I think McG emerges as a very strong candidate (to be interviewed), and that he has the public backing of a guy who lived and breathed excellence pretty much everywhere he went, pretty much cements it in my books. (the backing of the radio/media guys doesn't really say much, but Scotty Bowman IS Scotty Bowman!).


I've yet to hear or read any argument against McG as a candidate that seems based on anything more than personal dislike. The "experience" thing is WAY overstated, and the evidence of guys with experience who have failed miserably makes a definitive point, imo.

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