This is a continuation of the discussion for any potential Blues proposals you want to discuss as a St Louis fanbase rather than taking it to the general trade forum.
All this makes sense, just depends on the + with Tangradi.
Let's not repeat the Butcher trade because ironically enough it butchered our team. Don't know why we traded away an entire line.
For Stewart, I'd think it would have to be a pretty significant plus, wherein Tangradi was the add in to some deal.
I keep thinking the big piece from the Pens is maybe Martin or Michalek. I'm not a huge fan of how either guy has played this season, but I'll try to spin it nicely (not to convince you but to try to help explain why I conceivably could see Armstrong having interest. Martin was a legit top pairing guy in the NJ defensive system. He was awesome for the Pens last year. This year, not good, but anyone who watched him log 26 minutes with Kris Letang (a guy who I'd think in some ways is similar to Pietrangelo) and saw how he played could think to themselves 'man, he'd look awesome logging 25+ per night on a top pair with Pietrangelo'. Other option is Michalek . . . it's his off side, but he plays really well there, probably played one of his top games of the season there with Derek Englland against the Rangers.
Again, that's not me selling or saying 'ZOMG, how can you not want this guy'. It's me trying to make sense of what the Blues and Pens could be talking about to an extent that would justify the teams scouting each other.
Heck, maybe it is Orpik. I really, really doubt it (as in 99% doubt it). First, I can't see him being moved at all, not because he couldn't be in a hockey trade to improve the Pens, but instead because he's one of those lifer types. Second, would Armstrong make the type of 'overpayment' necessary? You'd be talking Stewart + Colaiacovo (as a stop gap until next season) + something pretty darned significant. Is there an offer that makes sense to you that would be too good for Shero to pass up, even for Orpik?
Honestly, if it's not that, then I see them talking a different deal, where the Blues have decided they will move Stewart not later than this summer and the Pens are talking Kennedy PLUS (plus what could be Bennett, could be Tangradi, could be Harrington, could be some combo of them or something comparable) trying to put together an offer that would beat whatever the Blues could get this summer. In that scenario, you'd have to look at it that Kennedy would give you what Stewart would give you in light of how Hitch is using him (not saying Kennedy is the same player, not by a long shot, just that he'd give you as a fourth liner what Stewart is giving you, and that's where he's probably staying for a while, I gather).
No offense, but Stewart and Colaiacovo are an overpayment for Orpik. The reason you want Stewart is you know he would rebound extremely well with your playmakers. He was a better scorer than Neal before he went to St. Louis. You'd be looking at another 30+ goal scorer if he played with the best centers in the league.
No offense, but Stewart and Colaiacovo are an overpayment for Orpik. The reason you want Stewart is you know he would rebound extremely well with your playmakers. He was a better scorer than Neal before he went to St. Louis. You'd be looking at another 30+ goal scorer if he played with the best centers in the league.
I'm speaking from a what Ray Shero would want to give up Orpik instead of a value perspective. Their two different things.
On of the reasons the Neal deal happened for Pittsburgh is because they saw Neal as a top six guy and Dallas didn't necessarily see him as a long term top six guy with guys like Benn emerging. Conversely, Gologoski was a #5 in Pittsburgh and Dallas saw him as a top pairing guy. That's why the deal worked, need matches extra assets for both teams.
I don't mean to be rude, but Stewart is excess in the same way that Neal was in Dallas. He's not top six in St Louis. You've got offensive prospects out the rear.
Would you trade Stewart and Colaiacovo for Orpik? I suspect Doug Armstrong would. Ray Shero wouldn't.
Again, not talking value in the mythical HF world, talking how the Pens GM would look at it.
No offense, but Stewart and Colaiacovo are an overpayment for Orpik. The reason you want Stewart is you know he would rebound extremely well with your playmakers. He was a better scorer than Neal before he went to St. Louis. You'd be looking at another 30+ goal scorer if he played with the best centers in the league.
Yea, this. Stewart next to Malkin or Crosby would be pretty amazing. I would think 40 goal potential. If we're giving up a guy with 40 goal potential to your team, we would be asking for a significant return without adding anything to our side.
Our interest in Martin is roughly 0.00000000%. Give or take.
They're not trading Stewart at his value low point, there's no logical reason to do it. The Blues don't need to panic with him. They're winning despite his poor play. Right now the Pens are terrible trading partners.
Our beat writer, who is not a rumor monger, put it in print yesterday that the Blues were socuting Hamrlik. He's playing over 19 minutes a night and has 114 games of playoff experience. They want someone with playoff experience because only Huskins has any real amount back there. Whether we judge them wanting Hamrlik as smart or not, I don't have any doubt that they're looking for that kind of depth. Their top two defensemen have zero playoff games under their belt. They'd have to ditch a D contract and Colaiacovo's 2.5M would have to go somewhere. I'd presume he'd go back to Washington, as the real value for them is having Hamrlik's 3.5M off the books this summer, and Cola is UFA.
Just because Pittsburgh is scouting the Blues it means little. We have spent a pretty hefty amount of time in back and forths with Pens fans over what trades might make sense and none do. They're not trading Stewart for a Tangradi package before the playoffs as they're already hurting on bodies up front at the moment and they're not going to put someone in a playoff position who has so little experience. There is literally nothing that makes sense between the teams right now. No offense, because you've been earnest.
Stewart isn't excess, he is just playing like crap. Besides, we are to play with 3 balanced scoring lines, not like you guys. You guys when healthy have 2 elite players to carry the load, we have a scoring by committee type offense, we need 3 scoring lines.
I know you guys meant well and everything started civil, but the Blues and Penguins aren't very good trading partners, at least in the eyes of fans. And just because a team scouts another team, doesn't mean a trade is going to happen. Army IMO isn't the type of GM to sell Stewart low and give him away, we would have to get a good amount for him.
Pittsburgh's trade thread as it pertains to the Blues is a pretty brutal read.
I don't see much chance of a hockey trade happening between these two teams. The few things we would move Stewart for off their roster are complete non-starters for them.
If we're shopping Stewart for prospects and picks, then I would think that would leave Pittsburgh on the outside looking in as well. There's nothing there that I would move Stewart for...certainly nothing that makes the Blues a significantly better team in the next three to four years than they would likely be otherwise.
Pittsburgh's trade thread as it pertains to the Blues is a pretty brutal read.
I don't see much chance of a hockey trade happening between these two teams. The few things we would move Stewart for off their roster are complete non-starters for them.
If we're shopping Stewart for prospects and picks, then I would think that would leave Pittsburgh on the outside looking in as well. There's nothing there that I would move Stewart for...certainly nothing that makes the Blues a significantly better team in the next three to four years than they would likely be otherwise.
Yea, if we're looking to trade Stewart, the conversation starts with Staal. While this year has been a down year, he did score 28 twice in his career, had 15 goals in 26 games when he arrived last year, and would be playing with two of the best playmakers in the world. With all that in mind, I'm asking for Staal. Now you can choose not to give him up, but I think Stewart could legitimately hit 40 goals alongside Crosby or Malkin. Wouldn't you trade Staal for a 40 goal Winger? I think I would. We could even throw in Arnott for a bottom 6 winger to help match out the holes in each roster.
But if you guys are going to pedestal Staal over a guy who could clearly be a perennial 40 goal guy for you, that's cool. Just know that Stewart -has- that potential before you go offering us prospects and picks or your overpaid one dimensional Dmen.
I brought this up yesterday in the other thread, but it didn't gain any traction due to the Penguins fans asking about Stewart.
Just curious, but how do people feel about Oshie for Brad Marchand straight up?
Thoughts?
Marchand looks like he might be the better scorer (with the caveat that his 18% shooting percentage this year is not sustainable, and his career 14% probably isn't either) and I like his speed better, but I think Oshie is better at pretty much everything else.
Value is about right, but personally I would rather just keep Oshie.
Orpik is an upgrade over Jackman and you get your LD for Pietrangelo signed at 3.75 for a few more seasons. Jackman is going to need to take a massive hometown discount to resign for similar money. The FA market will be nuts this summer and I don't think it's a coincidence he hasn't resigned yet.
TK was pursued by the Blues this offseason and would fit under Hitch very well with his effort level every night. He's on pace for 40+ Pts despite having a down season. He'd bring more on a consistent basis in a bottom six role than Stewart and still has top 6 upside.
Pens would need a D-man back so if Jackman is off limits then Colaiacovo or something in a separate deal could be doable.
Tangradi could use a change of scenery and is a solid piece to add into the deal.
You have Tarasenko on the way as a game changing forward as well as a stockpile of prospects.
Ill leave it at that though. Understand if you don't think it works.
Orpik is an upgrade over Jackman and you get your LD for Pietrangelo signed at 3.75 for a few more seasons. Jackman is going to need to take a massive hometown discount to resign for similar money. The FA market will be nuts this summer and I don't think it's a coincidence he hasn't resigned yet.
TK was pursued by the Blues this offseason and would fit under Hitch very well with his effort level every night. He's on pace for 40+ Pts despite having a down season. He'd bring more on a consistent basis in a bottom six role than Stewart and still has top 6 upside.
Pens would need a D-man back so if Jackman is off limits then Colaiacovo or something in a separate deal could be doable.
Tangradi could use a change of scenery and is a solid piece to add into the deal.
You have Tarasenko on the way as a game changing forward as well as a stockpile of prospects.
Ill leave it at that though. Understand if you don't think it works.
TK has top 6 upside in the same way that D'Agostini has top 6 upside. Not a huge need for the Blues. Stewart, on the other hand, has the potential to be the best offensive forward on the team.
I think Orpik and Jackman have a similar impact on the game. Orpik has slightly higher upside, but offsets that with worse consistency. I don't see turning Jackman into Orpik as a siginificant upgrade for the defense, and my hunch is that Jackman re-signs for less than you think he will.
Not a lot of interest in Tangradi, personally. I would rather take my chances on Stewart returning to form than Tangradi having an impact with the Blues.
I'm speaking from a what Ray Shero would want to give up Orpik instead of a value perspective. Their two different things.
On of the reasons the Neal deal happened for Pittsburgh is because they saw Neal as a top six guy and Dallas didn't necessarily see him as a long term top six guy with guys like Benn emerging. Conversely, Gologoski was a #5 in Pittsburgh and Dallas saw him as a top pairing guy. That's why the deal worked, need matches extra assets for both teams.
I don't mean to be rude, but Stewart is excess in the same way that Neal was in Dallas. He's not top six in St Louis. You've got offensive prospects out the rear.
Yeah, but ask Dallas fans if they would redo that trade - considering they are now truely a one line team. Most I think would take that trade back in a heart beat. Stewart isn't excess - our team as a hole can't score. We need goals not d.
Would you trade Stewart and Colaiacovo for Orpik? I suspect Doug Armstrong would. Ray Shero wouldn't.
Again, not talking value in the mythical HF world, talking how the Pens GM would look at it.
I know everyone is stuck on this left dman thing, but for this team to be successful, we need goals. And Stewart is a much better goal scorer then anything you are offering.
And while PB may like Tangradi, he is 23 and not much of a prospect at this point. I think we have a simular player in Grachev - so he is at best redundant. If he were a force in the NHL - he would be up with the big team already as the Pens are short on wingers.
According to Strickland we may have been in talks with Tampa Bay about Bishop and a prospect for Downie? Would have been a nice deal for us...
Wonder if we'll acquire any other forward.
He says T.J. Galiardi may be out in Colorado now.
Edit: May have just answered my own question. Would we have any interest in him? Seems like he'd fit our style although I don't know what Colorado would want.
Definitely would've preferred Downie over Galiardi. Wonder if Purcell would be available, he's one of the guys that I originally wanted us to go after.
Edit: May have just answered my own question. Would we have any interest in him? Seems like he'd fit our style although I don't know what Colorado would want.
He would be a good fit here, IMO, but the "looking to package him out" part of Strickland's blog makes me think Colorado's looking for a roster upgrade or a significant future piece for him. Doubt there's much interest from the Blues in that case.
He would be a good fit here, IMO, but the "looking to package him out" part of Strickland's blog makes me think Colorado's looking for a roster upgrade or a significant future piece for him. Doubt there's much interest from the Blues in that case.
Yeah true. Probably looking for a top-4 d-man, and we really don't have much to offer.
@mpp9 on Jackman, Armstrong said that he signed Elliott to UFA because he was putting in basically an All-Star year and wanted to make sure that position had more certainty (especially having Bishop to think about). But he then said he didn't work on some UFA deals and not others so that there wouldn't be that questioning in the room about why didn't I get my deal, etc. Jackman is the closest thing the Blues have had to a lifer player in a couple decades, and most of us (and most close to the organization) assume he will be re-signed. I haven't even heard anyone suggest that not signing him until after the season is anything significant. He's a defenseive d-man. A darn good one. And maybe he would make more if he went to July 1. But he's been through the worst of times with this organization, after breaking in next to Al MacInnis all those years ago. Hard to imagine he doesn't want to be part of this resurgence. Great chemistry with Shattenkirk, he's really in the best role he's ever been in with this organization and he's thriving in it. Basically I doubt Jackman's going anywhere and if he did the Blues have a plan B in Ian Cole, who developed on the USNTDP with Shattenkirk as his partner, and that would be a very good pairing too (and cheaper). So there really is no need in the deal you're proposing.
Now that everyone's talking Carter to LA for Johnson and a 1st, if a team were to swoop in and beat that offer, it's kind of out there that LA is willing to move Johnson. Usually in that spot the player winds up being moved not long thereafter.
Give Stewart a little rebound heading toward the playoffs, get Tarasenko signed and I'm telling you, Stewart for Johnson. I know that Johnson can have his bad moments in his own zone, but I think playing with Petro he'd cover a lot of that up. Don't really imagine any Petro pairing really scrambling around defensively.
Also, did Craig Anderson get hurt? Bishop to Ottawa for that 3d?
I'm not willing to move Stuart for a defenseman without a roster forward coming back, or at least another deal already set up to bring in a forward.
We have the best GAA in the League because of team defense. No attainable defenseman is going to make that record significantly better that it is. Stewart could make our goalscoring record significantly better. Going with Stewart is the better play IMO.
I'd just wait until the offseason before moving him for defense.
