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Building a Cup Winner

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Old
05-31-2012, 08:14 PM
  #1
Celtic Note
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Building a Cup Winner

Everyone talks about what the Blues need to win the Cup, but its been a while since I have seen a breakdown of the Stanley Cup final matchup lineups. So, here is a look at the last 4 years.

2012

Zach Parise - Travis Zajac - Dainuis Zubrus
Patrik Elias - Adam Henrique - Ilya Kovalchuk
Alexei Ponikarovsky - Jacob Josefson - David Clarkson
Ryan Carter - Brian Gionta - Steve Bernier

Andy Greene - Marke Fayne
Bryce Salvador - Marek Zidlicky
Anton Volchenkov - Peter Harrold

Martin Brodeur


Dustin Brown - Anze Kopitar - Justin Williams
Dustin Penner - Mike Richards - Jeff Carter
Dwight King - Jarret Stoll - Trevor Lewis
Brad Richardson - Colin Fraser - Jordan Nolan

Rob Scuderi - Drew Doughty
Willie Mitchell - Slava Voynov
Alec Martinez - Matt Greene

Jonathan Quick

2011

D. Sedin - H. Sedin - Burrows
Raymond - Kesler - Higgins
Torres - Lapierre - Hansen
Tambellini - Malhotra - Oreskovich

Bieksa - Ehrhoff
Edler - Salo
Ballard - Tanev

Luongo


Lucic - Krejci - Horton
Marchand - Bergeron - Recchi
Ryder - Kelly - Seguin
Paille - Campbell - Peverley

Chara - Seidenberg
Ference - Boychuk
Kaberle - McQuaid

Thomas

2010

Dustin Byfuglien Jonathan Toews Patrick Kane
Troy Brouwer Patrick Sharp Marian Hossa
Tomas Kopecky Dave Bolland Kris Versteeg
Ben Eager John Madden Adam Burish

Duncan Keith Brent Seabrook
Brian Campbell Niklas Hjalmarsson
Jordan Hendry Brent Sopel

Antti Niemi
Cristobal Huet



Simon Gagne Mike Richards Jeff Carter
Scott Hartnell Danny Briere Ville Leino
James van Riemsdyk Claude Giroux Arron Asham
Darroll Powe Blair Betts Ian Laperriere

Matt Carle Chris Pronger
Kimmo Timonen Braydon Coburn
Oskars Bartulis Lukas Krajicek

Michael Leighton
Brian Boucher

2009

Chris Kunitz Sidney Crosby Bill Guerin
Ruslan Fedotenko Evgeni Malkin Max Talbot
Matt Cooke Jordan Staal Tyler Kennedy
Pascal Dupuis Craig Adams Miroslav Satan

Brooks Orpik Sergei Gonchar
Mark Eaton Kris Letang
Hal Gill Rob Scuderi

Marc-Andre Fleury


Pavel Datsyuk Henrik Zetterberg Johan Franzen
Daniel Cleary Valtteri Filppula Marian Hossa
Jiri Hudler Darren Helm Mikael Samuelsson
Tomas Holmstrom Kris Draper Kirk Maltby


Nicklas Lidstrom Brain Rafalski
Niklas Kronwall Brad Stuart
Jonathan Ericsson Brett Lebda

Chris Osgood



I will let others draw some conclusions before I make my own.


Last edited by Celtic Note: 06-01-2012 at 01:28 AM.
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Old
05-31-2012, 11:33 PM
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Blues0307
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Thing that sticks out the most - All teams that have way more money than the Blues. The teams are all at or around the cap, the Blues are nowhere near it. St. Louis is at a HUGE disadvantage, and it only took watching LA's playoff run to point out this glaring fact once again.

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05-31-2012, 11:53 PM
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Celtic Note
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Originally Posted by Blues0307 View Post
Thing that sticks out the most - All teams that have way more money than the Blues. The teams are all at or around the cap, the Blues are nowhere near it. St. Louis is at a HUGE disadvantage, and it only took watching LA's playoff run to point out this glaring fact once again.
How about we just look at the players and composition and let the FO worry about the rest.

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06-01-2012, 12:04 AM
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Well, to state the obvious, they all have crazy depth. The 2010 Blackhawks, and the 2009 Penguins and Red Wings really stand out to me; all of the third lines you listed could pass for second (or first!) lines on a few teams.

Also, wasn't the future captain of the Thrashers/Jets, Andrew Ladd, a part of that Hawks team?

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06-01-2012, 12:29 AM
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Celtic Note
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Well, to state the obvious, they all have crazy depth. The 2010 Blackhawks, and the 2009 Penguins and Red Wings really stand out to me; all of the third lines you listed could pass for second (or first!) lines on a few teams.

Also, wasn't the future captain of the Thrashers/Jets, Andrew Ladd, a part of that Hawks team?
Yeah Ladd was part of the Hawks as was Sykora for the Pens.

The biggest areas I think we are deficient are in top end 1st liners, a solid 3rd line center and some solid, tough, stay-at-home defensemen.

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06-01-2012, 12:41 AM
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MattyMo35
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The biggest difference between those teams and the Blues is the high end super-talents on the top forward line. The Blues can compete with the majority of the Defensive corps out of the bunch, but the lack of true scoring prowess on the top line is what really separates the Blues from the Cup Champs. Man that Hawks team in 2010 was so stacked lol.

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06-01-2012, 01:00 AM
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The Blues top line looks like a lot of those second lines...

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06-01-2012, 01:07 AM
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The need for top end, 1st line forwards is the real reason I created this thread. While I agree a high end LHD would be nice, I think we have bigger needs. Whether those are addressed by players we already have is yet to be seen.

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06-01-2012, 01:14 AM
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Wouldn't you say the Blues are built similarly to the 2011 Bruins? They don't have what I would consider a star first-liner, but they have the ability to comfortably roll four lines, each of which has the ability to score. We're not that far off defensively either; we just lack that giant LHD...

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06-01-2012, 01:19 AM
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bluemandan
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Adam Henrique, Mike Richards, Ryan Kesler, Patrice Bergeron, Patrick Sharp, Danny Briere, Evgeni Malkin, Valtteri Filppula. All the second line centers on those teams. Where would you rank Berglund among those players? What about Backes? I totally agree with Celtic Note about needing more top-tier players. That's why I've been pushing for a #1 center. I personally think its more important that a top defenseman for with Pietrangelo. While it would be nice to get a #2 who can cover if Pietrangleo goes down with injury, a top line player (preferably a center) is more important in my book. Pietrangelo is good enough to make his partner look good. The number two slot can be filled with a 2-3 year, $2.5-3.5 M guy until one of Cole/Ponich/Edmundson takes it. But the Blues don't have a top-tier center anywhere in the organization.

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06-01-2012, 01:26 AM
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Originally Posted by Mormino View Post
Wouldn't you say the Blues are built similarly to the 2011 Bruins? They don't have what I would consider a star first-liner, but they have the ability to comfortably roll four lines, each of which has the ability to score. We're not that far off defensively either; we just lack that giant LHD...
The Bruins had better production from their group in terms of offense and I doubt Halak will be putting up a Thomas like performance. Could be wrong about Halak though.

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06-01-2012, 01:31 AM
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Originally Posted by bluemandan View Post
Adam Henrique, Mike Richards, Ryan Kesler, Patrice Bergeron, Patrick Sharp, Danny Briere, Evgeni Malkin, Valtteri Filppula. All the second line centers on those teams. Where would you rank Berglund among those players? What about Backes? I totally agree with Celtic Note about needing more top-tier players. That's why I've been pushing for a #1 center. I personally think its more important that a top defenseman for with Pietrangelo. While it would be nice to get a #2 who can cover if Pietrangleo goes down with injury, a top line player (preferably a center) is more important in my book. Pietrangelo is good enough to make his partner look good. The number two slot can be filled with a 2-3 year, $2.5-3.5 M guy until one of Cole/Ponich/Edmundson takes it. But the Blues don't have a top-tier center anywhere in the organization.
I agree with the assessment of our centers. I would, with out a blink of an eye, take Boston's center depth over ours.

The biggest reason why I think we need that top end player is to take some of the pressure off our players offensively and place more of that pressure on the opposition. I think that helps generate more mistakes by the other team and increase our offensive productivity all around.

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06-01-2012, 01:42 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Celtic Note View Post
The need for top end, 1st line forwards is the real reason I created this thread. While I agree a high end LHD would be nice, I think we have bigger needs. Whether those are addressed by players we already have is yet to be seen.
From watching games you can tell the Blues can definately use a top end forward. Watching guys like Kovalchuk or Giroux during the playoffs was something that the Blues are definately missing, but i think that a partner for Pietrangelo will make our team better off then getting that game breaker. There is untapped potential with Pietrangleo, we dont know how much better he can be with a more reliable partner.

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06-01-2012, 01:56 AM
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I love when people make an observation thread and then everybody focuses on the "big names up front" to make the case that we need All-Star caliber scoring forwards while ignoring all of the other factors that made those teams successful.


What I see:

Mobile Defensive groups(6 of the 8 had a Defenseman as the best non-goalie on the team; 7 of the 8 had a legit #1 D man; 7 of the 8 had a offensively capable D man on the 3rd pairing)

Good to Great Goaltending(4 of the 8 had a goalie as the best player on the team; and all of them had a backup who was almost as capable as the starter)

Offenses that don't rely on 1 person or Line(7 of the 8 rolled 3 lines in offensive situations; 7 of the 8 had a past or present 20 goal scorer on the 3rd line)

Grit and physical play spread through the lineup(7 of the 8 followed the 2 PF method)

Depth at center(all of them had a trio of strong 2-way centers)

All of them played heavy puck control/defense oriented systems
Age and size are completely irrelevant
Having the "bigger names" is not always a guarantee of winning
All of them had depth players capable of stepping into a top 6 forward or top 4 D man role


The only area the Blues aren't similar is in terms of our depth at center. With Arnott leaving, we need a legit top 9 center to round out our lineup. Could be a legit #1 or #2 like Staal or Ribiero, could be a good #3 like Stoll or Kelly; it just needs to be a strong 2-way guy to give us 3 building blocks at the position.

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06-01-2012, 10:14 AM
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Dismissed in the second post but still relevant as the conversation goes full circle.

This team just doesn't have the money for big name forwards without sacrificing depth.

Been there done that.

They have a model in place now that got them back into the playoffs with a team that's moving towards financially stability.

It won't be a popular thing to say, but ... they may very well be near or at their "talent" peak now, with tweaks here and there to increase their chances at the cup.

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06-01-2012, 11:16 AM
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The Blues need to find a sleeper forward in the draft in the next couple of years. Jordan Eberle, Claude Giroux, Max Pacioretty type that falls to the 20s and turns out to be one of the best forwards in the draft. Even Tarasenko sort of falls under that category, but his arrival doesn't seem likely in the near future. Hitting big with the first rounder this year could help this club immensely. Especially with the scoring threats that could be on their way in the next few years. A big, two-way center with some scoring touch to put in between Tarasenko and Schwartz in the reasonably near future, or Rattie and Schwartz in the distant future would be fantastic. Although, I guess you could argue that Patrik Berglund fits that bill pretty well. We just need him to forget last year and build on a pretty solid playoff showing.

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06-02-2012, 12:10 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ignore42me View Post
From watching games you can tell the Blues can definately use a top end forward. Watching guys like Kovalchuk or Giroux during the playoffs was something that the Blues are definately missing, but i think that a partner for Pietrangelo will make our team better off then getting that game breaker. There is untapped potential with Pietrangleo, we dont know how much better he can be with a more reliable partner.
To succeed in the playoffs against the very top-level teams, The Blues need BOTH the top-level defenceman AND the Top-Line centre. One of them might come (within 1-2 years) from the current roster, but the other should be picked up this off-season (most likely through a trade).

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06-02-2012, 08:29 AM
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To succeed in the playoffs against the very top-level teams, The Blues need BOTH the top-level defenceman AND the Top-Line centre. One of them might come (within 1-2 years) from the current roster, but the other should be picked up this off-season (most likely through a trade).
If Jackman is one of those top 4 defenceman, the Blues will not win the Cup Period.

And I'd like to see Andy Mac shifted back to Center.

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06-03-2012, 11:16 AM
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This team has an excellent nucleus that is a contender and will be good for years to come. AMac is the old man who will be 35 in August, Backes and Steen are the next elder statesmen at 28, then everyone else is 25 or younger plus the youngsters Schwartz and Tarasenko. 4th liners Sobotka and Reaves are 25. On D Polak is the old timer at 26 with Cole at 23 knocking on the door to become a regular and of course stud youngsters Pie and Shattenkirk. Russell is 25. Both Goalies are 27. The Blues have all their draft picks+ and some help in the pipeline. The next 4-6 weeks will be interesting.

Ownership in place, Schwartz and Tarasenko on board. What's next?

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06-03-2012, 02:18 PM
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Originally Posted by stlweir View Post
This team has an excellent nucleus that is a contender and will be good for years to come. AMac is the old man who will be 35 in August, Backes and Steen are the next elder statesmen at 28, then everyone else is 25 or younger plus the youngsters Schwartz and Tarasenko. 4th liners Sobotka and Reaves are 25. On D Polak is the old timer at 26 with Cole at 23 knocking on the door to become a regular and of course stud youngsters Pie and Shattenkirk. Russell is 25. Both Goalies are 27. The Blues have all their draft picks+ and some help in the pipeline. The next 4-6 weeks will be interesting.

Ownership in place, Schwartz and Tarasenko on board. What's next?
Adding the Top 4 defenceman AND the solid, 3rd Line centre, WITHOUT giving up a "core player".

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06-03-2012, 03:00 PM
  #21
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The Penguins sure chose a good time to suck

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06-05-2012, 03:38 AM
  #22
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I noticed that only the 2012 matchup has teams with more than 2 right handed d-men. Boston had 2, Vancouver had 2... Hamhuis played 19 games and tanev played 5. Chicago had 2, Philly had 0, pittsburgh and detroit each had 1.

I find that to be ironic considering what most of us find as the biggest need for the blues which is a Top LHD.

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06-05-2012, 04:00 AM
  #23
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The Penguins sure chose a good time to suck
pretty much this. success through a faulty draft system.

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06-05-2012, 10:00 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stlweir View Post
This team has an excellent nucleus that is a contender and will be good for years to come. AMac is the old man who will be 35 in August, Backes and Steen are the next elder statesmen at 28, then everyone else is 25 or younger plus the youngsters Schwartz and Tarasenko. 4th liners Sobotka and Reaves are 25. On D Polak is the old timer at 26 with Cole at 23 knocking on the door to become a regular and of course stud youngsters Pie and Shattenkirk. Russell is 25. Both Goalies are 27. The Blues have all their draft picks+ and some help in the pipeline. The next 4-6 weeks will be interesting.

Ownership in place, Schwartz and Tarasenko on board. What's next?
Not being a financial trainwreck? Our biggest problem, aside from a lack of high-end talent, is that we lack the wherewithal to acquire high-quality players from trade or free agency; the St. Louis market simply can not support such a team unless we have a deep-pockets owner, and that ship has sailed.

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06-05-2012, 02:57 PM
  #25
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I think McDonald can still play center in this league, but I doubt that's how the Blues want to use him. They want him sparking transition with the puck on his stick and pushing the rush with his speed, not using his body deep in the defensive corners along the boards to seperate players from pucks and trailing the play in transition.

IMO, the Blues are wasting McDonald's talents as a player using him as a center in this system.

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